Elise to S2000........

[Hollywood Wheels]

I currently have my beloved Elise S1 Sport 160 in the classifieds, and the only car I'm looking at to replace it is an S2000. I want something with a decent boot and air-con, comfortable for long-distances, but which will still put a smile on my face.

Is the power delivery in the S really as bad as people make out? You'd think there was no power at all below 6K the way people are talking. The Elise is a pretty poor car torque-wise, so I'm hoping that the revvable nature of the S won't be that alien to me.

I'm also a bit worried about finding the S slow compared to the Elise. The 160 is a seriously quick piece of kit with a soundtrack to match. Will the more 'civilised' nature of the S make it feel slow? I know once it's in 3-figure speeds it would leave the Elise for dead, but without sounding funny, 0-60 in 6.5 secs (magazine figures) sounds slow. Are these official Honda figures, with the actual real-world times being quicker?

I've driven an S2000 briefly, and was a bit shocked at how high I seemed to be sitting. Is there a cheap fix for this, such as lower seat runners or something, that would make me feel like I was sitting in the car rather than on it?!

Any advice appreciated. I really don't want this to turn into a multiple-page pissing contest, I'm not here to troll but for any helpful info. I'm well aware that the steering and cornering won't compare to the Lotus. My mind is pretty much set on a black S with red seats/black dash, for about £9.5K.

[stigmundfreud]

you can get seat rails that lower the ride of the seat to floorpan level.

Power wise, I drive a Monaro most days and have not yet been left wanting for more from the s2k. You have to work the gears more than my other car, obviously, but for you it should be something you are used to. Its no slouch below 6k its just when the vtec comes in it is such a different beast it can make the normal mode seem slow

[mikey k]

They do need to be reved out for best effect.
Or you could supercharge it

[speedtwelve]

The 'lack of torque' thing is overrated. I have an S2000; my other car is a Schrick'd Corrado VR6 that dyno'd at 203 lbft of torque at just 3500 rpm, yet I love driving the S2k as working the engine is part of the involvement. Below the VTEC point I find it has the torque delivery of a 'normal' N/A 2.0l car; in traffic it has enough torque to make progress without having to stir the box. The only time the S2000 power band becomes an issue is during overtakes: misjudge the gear and it can result in the odd 'tense' moment as you wait for the car to come on VTEC. In VTEC, particularly above 7500 rpm, the car revs and feels like a 4-wheel sportsbike, and is a pretty potent overtaking tool.

I haven't driven an Elise 160. I have driven an S1 Sport 135 which I felt to be slightly lacking in performance compared to the S2000 when on-cam. The VX220T I drove felt like it had more go than the Honda, but not by much. The Elise 160 0-100 time is pretty similar to the S2000. The 0-60 figure you quoted seems a tad conservative. Some of the mags figured 0-60 in the high 5s. 0-100mph is generally taken to be 14.3secs, with a 30-70mph through the gears of 5.2secs.

I agree that the Honda's handling and steering feel is a long way short of the Elise, but the steering is suitably high-geared and pointy. The gearshift itself is fantastic and the brakes are suitably powerful.

I wanted an S1 Elise or Chimaera 400, but really needed a daily driver that I couldn't garage, hence buying the S2k. Have another test-drive, rag it all the way to 9000 rpm and see what you think.

Edited by speedtwelve on Tuesday 14th April 01:34

[Mclovin]

i just been driving one all weekend...the seat is stupidly high because of that i can imagine this thing is going to be no fun on track, will feel like a ocean liner when it corners compared to an elise....also it doesnt feel like it really digs into corners like an s1 which feels like its holding on for dear life...other than that its great fun, the engine is well addictive...

[JRM]

Well it is going to feel different to the Elise certainly with regards to the height you it at, but I guess that's part of the compromise for having something that can by more comfy long distance.

Regading the torque issue, it's complete tosh, there isn't an issue at all, it's just most people are lazy and don't like changing gear - they may as well drive autos. You'll find yourself changing down and blipping the throttle for pefect down shifts and getting a huge grin every time you do it, even if it's at 40mph, it's such an incredible engine.

There aren't many cars that you can be driving calmly along in 5th and then shift down to 2nd and STILL have rev range left to enjoy !!

[alock]

AutoCar 50-70mph times in 6th gear:

BMW 320d : 8.9 seconds
Widely regarded as one of the best 4 cylinder diesels with ample real world performance.

Honda S2000 : 8.5 seconds
Widely slated as having no torque and you have to rev the nuts off it to get anywhere.



For me the S2000 makes the perfect daily driver. Just enough creature comforts and just enough of the fun factor.

If your commute involves quite a bit of time queueing without air flow through the engine bay then I would read up on the heat soak issues some owners have.
http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?&showtopi...

[hahithestevieboy]

Hollywood Wheels said:

I currently have my beloved Elise S1 Sport 160 in the classifieds, and the only car I'm looking at to replace it is an S2000. I want something with a decent boot and air-con, comfortable for long-distances, but which will still put a smile on my face.

Is the power delivery in the S really as bad as people make out? You'd think there was no power at all below 6K the way people are talking. The Elise is a pretty poor car torque-wise, so I'm hoping that the revvable nature of the S won't be that alien to me.

I'm also a bit worried about finding the S slow compared to the Elise. The 160 is a seriously quick piece of kit with a soundtrack to match. Will the more 'civilised' nature of the S make it feel slow? I know once it's in 3-figure speeds it would leave the Elise for dead, but without sounding funny, 0-60 in 6.5 secs (magazine figures) sounds slow. Are these official Honda figures, with the actual real-world times being quicker?

I've driven an S2000 briefly, and was a bit shocked at how high I seemed to be sitting. Is there a cheap fix for this, such as lower seat runners or something, that would make me feel like I was sitting in the car rather than on it?!

Any advice appreciated. I really don't want this to turn into a multiple-page pissing contest, I'm not here to troll but for any helpful info. I'm well aware that the steering and cornering won't compare to the Lotus. My mind is pretty much set on a black S with red seats/black dash, for about £9.5K.

OP, I've had/have both the cars you mention. Comparison is easy. I dont know how well sorted your 160 was but I totally know what you mean.

The s2000 is nowhere near as fast as your '160. Your 160 will sound and feel much much more special to drive, be in and look at. However both cars are masterpieces in their own right. The engine characteristics of both are quite similar in the way that the honda vtec's at 6K in the same way as the '160 comes alive at 3k and then on cam at 5K. However, the honda has little of the nasty low rev / part throttle sensitivity of the '160 (although it does retain some). (You will need to take the top off the airbox btw....trust me on that...)

The steering on the s2000 feels almost completely dead and the ride is just nothing on the elise. It doesnt bite into a corner with the same enthusiasm (rear end wise) as the elise either. On the other hand it has very quick steering and turns into a corner (resisting understeer) in a way that is very close to the elise. Also, the driving position is pretty close too. Interestingly the boot and cabin are little more practical in the S2000 compared to the '160.

The honda however will probably not give you the pain of the lotus but 90% of the fun in most situations. It doesnt feel like this that and the other need to be upgraded as on the lotus either.

The s2000 is more elise like than any other car imho but just goes about it in a different (read more expensive) way.

Drifting a bit because I could probably do comparisons all day. Both are great. The s2000 is a better every day road car though.

[mikdys]

Having both an Elise S1 and an S2000 I can confirm that the Elise is streets ahead in terms of handling and style, but the Honda has more practicality and (provided you get one with well under 100k miles) reliability. The S2000 boot space is reasonable but, if you are touring with it and need slightly more, if you ditch the spare and tools holder (and replace with "puncture aerosol" and tool wrap) you gain 50% more boot space. (The only down side of the boot is the convoluted interior shape meaning you have to use flight bags for luggage and not hard cases). As for the S2000 engine, this is the reason to buy the car, if you love driving. It's not a lazy, torquey motorway cruiser and it's not meant to be. The engine is designed to rev and makes its power over 6,000 rpm (up to 9,000) and keeping it in the powerband with its delightfully sweet gearchange (the gearchange is one of the best going) is great fun and very rewarding.

[stigmundfreud]

imagine what that engine would be like in an elise

[hahithestevieboy]

stigmundfreud said:

imagine what that engine would be like in an elise

Well it kinda has already been done to death. Apparently many of the honda s1's produce about 220bhp which isnt far off (alledgedly) and is considered by many to be the pinacle of the breed in terms of raw performance. Supercharged ones are compared to the challenge stradale.

[stigmundfreud]

seen its been done but I'm just imagining it. Still for all out package I think the s2000 has it simply for the added comfort value.

[hahithestevieboy]

hahithestevieboy said:

stigmundfreud said:

imagine what that engine would be like in an elise

Well it kinda has already been done to death. Apparently many of the honda s1's produce about 220bhp which isnt far off (alledgedly) and is considered by many to be the pinacle of the breed in terms of raw performance. Supercharged ones are compared to the challenge stradale.

That is true I suppose. Having said that, I found the '160 very comfortable indeed. Ideal in fact for my dimunitive frame. It fit like a glove. Not cramped for me (in fact I reckon that it's less cramped for me than the s2000). I'd say roof down, its even more comfortable (for me) than the s2000. Better ride than the s2000 too and in some ways (not in the wet) not as twitchy and knife edged to drive fast.

Having said that the '160 only really came into its own when it was on the cam, and when it was, sustaining that made it far too fast for the road as speeds got too high, too quickly and sightlines (and safety) meant that you could rarely give it what it had in the corners.

Usabiltiy wise though, I found the elise much much better than expected and far beyond what it had any right to be for what it was...

[mikdys]

hahithestevieboy said:

stigmundfreud said:

imagine what that engine would be like in an elise

Well it kinda has already been done to death. Apparently many of the honda s1's produce about 220bhp which isnt far off (alledgedly) and is considered by many to be the pinacle of the breed in terms of raw performance. Supercharged ones are compared to the challenge stradale.

The Elise S1 conversions (I would love one if I could afford it!) are built with Honda Civic Type R engines (because these are designed for FWD and suit the mid-engine S1). These don't rev quite as high as the S2000 engine and are about 20hp down on power too (the S2000 engine wouldn't suit because it is designed for a front-engined rwd set-up). The S2000 engine (if it could be made to fit an S1 - maybe dry sumped with a bespoke gearbox/bellhousing on a CTR) would be sublime in the Elise. Imagine, 9,000 rpm and limpet like handling.

Back to the idea of buying an S2000 as a "practical alternative to an Elise". If you are really considering this idea then I suggest you test drive a few s/h S2000's and give them a serious ragging keeping the revs up on the red line. That engine will get you hooked!

[hahithestevieboy]

mikdys said:

hahithestevieboy said:

stigmundfreud said:

imagine what that engine would be like in an elise

Well it kinda has already been done to death. Apparently many of the honda s1's produce about 220bhp which isnt far off (alledgedly) and is considered by many to be the pinacle of the breed in terms of raw performance. Supercharged ones are compared to the challenge stradale.

The Elise S1 conversions (I would love one if I could afford it!) are built with Honda Civic Type R engines (because these are designed for FWD and suit the mid-engine S1). These don't rev quite as high as the S2000 engine and are about 20hp down on power too (the S2000 engine wouldn't suit because it is designed for a front-engined rwd set-up). The S2000 engine (if it could be made to fit an S1 - maybe dry sumped with a bespoke gearbox/bellhousing on a CTR) would be sublime in the Elise. Imagine, 9,000 rpm and limpet like handling.

Back to the idea of buying an S2000 as a "practical alternative to an Elise". If you are really considering this idea then I suggest you test drive a few s/h S2000's and give them a serious ragging keeping the revs up on the red line. That engine will get you hooked!

Yeah, i know on the honda elise front. still brilliant though. Nice thought.

On the s2k versus elise, he's coming from a sport 160 - a very special and unique car indeed

[Cathar]

I sold my HKT Seven (not an Elise, but even more impractical) and got the S2000 because it is in my opinion one of the most focused sportscars in its class, while still offering a little bit more in the way of creature comforts, especially a useable boot and aircon.

It took a while to get used to it, but now after thorough setup I enjoy driving it almost as much as the Seven. The sense of occasion is not as big, but since you can travel with the car or drive to work with it (ok I did both in the Seven, but you know what I mean), I can actually enjoy it more / more often.

However, the S definitely is the most difficult car to drive at the limit I have driven so far. I'm still not sure why this is, but I suspect the low polar moment of inertia (just look how far back the engine is!) and the quite aggressive LSD are factors.

It's still a huge amount of fun, engine and gearchange are really special, heel-toe is immensely satisfying in VTEC, and the car is more than fast enough for those roads where driving is still fun.

Edited by Cathar on Friday 17th April 09:23

[havoc]

I nearly bought a VX220 n/a before getting the S2000, and while I know the VX is a little softer and slower than your 160, I'd say most of the comments above apply...I loved the tactility and immediacy of the VX, but wanted the comfort and practicality of the S...plus the wife didn't enjoy the VX and this was to be a shared car.


However, I'd strongly recommend getting the geometry sorted-out soon after purchase - it makes a major difference:-
- the steering can be made to have a more natural feel to it, albeit nowhere near as detailed as the Elise
- the steering is always very direct - 2.5 turns lock-to-lock means it feels agile enough, even if not quite as immediate as the Elise, but the front-end grip the car has is awesome...and with adjustable camber front and rear you can change the 'balance' of the car a huge amount...
- ...so the rear-end can be made as tame or as mobile as you like, and being an FR car with comparatively little torque and a linear delivery, it's only in the wet you need to worry about your right foot...in the dry if it does come around it's (with the right geo) quite catchable and playful. My set up is:-
Front:
0 toe
1 degree camber
5.5 degress castor (almost minimum)

Rear:
minimum toe-in
1.5 degrees camber (less than standard)

Driven correctly, mine will turn-in smartly, followed by a progressive application of the throttle which will load the rears up and, depending on how aggressive you want to be, either 'drive' the car around the corner from the rear in a more MR sort of way, or push the tail out in a lairy way. Driven like a hot hatch it can both under and oversteer at the wrong times, but from an Elise you won't be making those sort of errors....

[mikey P 500]

Been following this thread closely as I am also selling an Elise with view to buy a s2000, very helpful comments, I will certainly be taking my future purchase for geo check.
Can anyone recommend any good insurance companies; I’m over 25 but still finding the quotes very steep. In fact my best quote is over double what I am paying on my Elise which I would consider a similarly high risk car.

[Cathar]

In all countries with risk-based insurance policies, like the UK or Germany (but luckily not Austria), the S2000 has extremely expensive insurance. Even though most owners will tell you it's just a matter of adjusting your driving style, there must be a reason somewhere...

Cathar said:

However, the S definitely is the most difficult car to drive at the limit I have driven so far. I'm still not sure why this is, but I suspect the low polar moment of inertia (just look how far back the engine is!) and the quite aggressive LSD are factors.

Edited by Cathar on Friday 17th April 17:10

[ajg31]

To my eyes you seem to be swapping for a bigger boot. What would you class as an uncomfortable distance? I would never describe an Elise as uncomfortable. Could sit in my Noble for 14 hours straight around europe, and i know the Elise is a nicer place to sit that the Noble for my frame size. Buy a shed for the boot, and keep your pride and joy. Ever thought of re upholstering your seat for comfort?