S2000 - Is the 04 facelift worthwhile

[hahithestevieboy]

Hi All,

I am considering (trying) to get an 2004 S2000 GT (hard top version). Budget is 15K so is it worth seeking out a post facelift version? so basically high vs low mileage?

Any advice apreciaed!!

PS prices seem loads higher than whats on parkers grrr....

[mikey k]

You will be lucky to get a 04GT for £15k.
It is worth holding out for an 04 as they are easier to live with day to day.
I've had an 00, 04, 06 & 05

[hahithestevieboy]

mikey k said:

You will be lucky to get a 04GT for £15k.
It is worth holding out for an 04 as they are easier to live with day to day.
I've had an 00, 04, 06 & 05

Why so many? I suppose that I could stretch to £15.5 or maybe even £16 There is an 06 on autotrader with 4K on the clock for £12.5K. Very poor advert so probably been crashed/poor example/scam etc

[DanL]

All depends, I suppose!

I bought a '53' reg GT this month, having driven 01, 53 and 04 models. The 04 has a slightly nicer interior, and nicer dash unit I think - I prefer the exterior light treatment on the model I have, however, as I don't like the look of coloured indictors. I decided in the end all I was really interested in was getting one with a glass rear screen and the slightly revised suspension set up - the changes after that were beyond me on a test drive, although they are probably more apparent day to day.

I also decided if I wanted to spend the money required to get into an '04' onwards I'd rather buy a Boxster S, and having decided I didn't want to spend the extra couple of grand I'm very happy with my choice. It is a brilliant little car, despite the initial lack of go when you put your foot down at low revs, and does exactly what it says on the tin.

One thing I found when looking for one - low mileage versions are all well and good, but so many owners service them on mileage rather than time if they're not being used. I don't know about you, but a four year old car that's only had two services doesn't have what I'd consider to be "full service history"! Something to watch for if that bothers you.

Dan

[hahithestevieboy]

DanL said:

All depends, I suppose!

I bought a '53' reg GT this month, having driven 01, 53 and 04 models. The 04 has a slightly nicer interior, and nicer dash unit I think - I prefer the exterior light treatment on the model I have, however, as I don't like the look of coloured indictors. I decided in the end all I was really interested in was getting one with a glass rear screen and the slightly revised suspension set up - the changes after that were beyond me on a test drive, although they are probably more apparent day to day.

I also decided if I wanted to spend the money required to get into an '04' onwards I'd rather buy a Boxster S, and having decided I didn't want to spend the extra couple of grand I'm very happy with my choice. It is a brilliant little car, despite the initial lack of go when you put your foot down at low revs, and does exactly what it says on the tin.

One thing I found when looking for one - low mileage versions are all well and good, but so many owners service them on mileage rather than time if they're not being used. I don't know about you, but a four year old car that's only had two services doesn't have what I'd consider to be "full service history"! Something to watch for if that bothers you.

Dan

Cheers for the heads up dan. Serviced every 9K/12 months which ever comes sooner is a full service history as you said. Less and it isnt. Oil degrades over time and looses the ability to do it's job properly regardless of useage.

Interesting re the boxter as I had the exact same thoughts. The boxter is probably a better car in many respects but I just cant get my head round the image (i know that's shallow). I suppose I could just get an 02 model with 50K on the clock and add a supercharger......

[MrFlibbles]

I know someone who's giving away a 2004 for £13600!

Out of interest - why are you looking for a GT?

[hahithestevieboy]

MrFlibbles said:

I know someone who's giving away a 2004 for £13600!

Out of interest - why are you looking for a GT?

Sounds interesting.....

Reason for the GT is that the car will be:
1. A daily driver.
2. I really wanted a coupe (but cant think of anything that fits the bill appart from an S2 Exige.
3. It will be parked on the street in a rough area.
4. Soft tops do not seem to stand the test of time.
5. I like the way it looks.

All this coming from the man that useto run an S1 elise 160 as a daily driver....

[MrFlibbles]

hahithestevieboy said:

MrFlibbles said:

I know someone who's giving away a 2004 for £13600!

Out of interest - why are you looking for a GT?

Sounds interesting.....

Reason for the GT is that the car will be:
1. A daily driver.
2. I really wanted a coupe (but cant think of anything that fits the bill appart from an S2 Exige.
3. It will be parked on the street in a rough area.
4. Soft tops do not seem to stand the test of time.
5. I like the way it looks.

All this coming from the man that useto run an S1 elise 160 as a daily driver....

At the risk of giving my own car the hard sell...

There seems to be a tendency on here for the non GT guys to extol the virtues of the lack of hard top and the GT guys to say thats the way forward.

1.I was using mine as daily drive - the advantages of teh soft top are that you can get the roof down in 6 seconds and take adbtange of any ray of sunshine! The hard top is a two man lift i belive...

2. Thought about a 350z?

3. A bit of a tougher one this - mine lives on the drive and got broken in to a few months back. Arguably its my own fault, i left the sat nav ON THE SEAT in full view! DOH! IMO, they'd have gone through the window if it had a hard top.

4. Hmm, you need one thats just had a new roof! (see above )

5. Agreed, they do look good!

[hahithestevieboy]

MrFlibbles said:

hahithestevieboy said:

MrFlibbles said:

I know someone who's giving away a 2004 for £13600!

Out of interest - why are you looking for a GT?

Sounds interesting.....

Reason for the GT is that the car will be:
1. A daily driver.
2. I really wanted a coupe (but cant think of anything that fits the bill appart from an S2 Exige.
3. It will be parked on the street in a rough area.
4. Soft tops do not seem to stand the test of time.
5. I like the way it looks.

All this coming from the man that useto run an S1 elise 160 as a daily driver....

At the risk of giving my own car the hard sell...

There seems to be a tendency on here for the non GT guys to extol the virtues of the lack of hard top and the GT guys to say thats the way forward.

1.I was using mine as daily drive - the advantages of teh soft top are that you can get the roof down in 6 seconds and take adbtange of any ray of sunshine! The hard top is a two man lift i belive...

2. Thought about a 350z?

3. A bit of a tougher one this - mine lives on the drive and got broken in to a few months back. Arguably its my own fault, i left the sat nav ON THE SEAT in full view! DOH! IMO, they'd have gone through the window if it had a hard top.

4. Hmm, you need one thats just had a new roof! (see above )

5. Agreed, they do look good!

Cheers Mr F.

1. Agreed, and also where to put the thing when its off. Still mind is kind of made up. As far as I know, the hard top is the only difference between the roadster and the gt?

2. Yes. Too big and heavy for my tastes. Heard the interior is a bit naff. Although i have not driven or even looked at one. Perhaps I should...

3. Agreed. This is the main reason, damage is however likely to be either petty theft (my dad learned that one the hard way outside my house or vandalism due to envy. Moving away soon.

4. Ouch!

5. Quite!

OK then Mr F, Post up some details.

[ferrisbueller]

Depends how you drive. Chassis changes on the facelift car are significant IMO.

[hahithestevieboy]

ferrisbueller said:

Depends how you drive. Chassis changes on the facelift car are significant IMO.

Care to elaborate?

I thought geo changes to make it less knife edge at the back end, slightly softer, less toe to reduce tire ware and with bigger wheels?

[adam4478]

MrFlibbles said:

hahithestevieboy said:

MrFlibbles said:

I know someone who's giving away a 2004 for £13600!

Out of interest - why are you looking for a GT?

Sounds interesting.....

Reason for the GT is that the car will be:
1. A daily driver.
2. I really wanted a coupe (but cant think of anything that fits the bill appart from an S2 Exige.
3. It will be parked on the street in a rough area.
4. Soft tops do not seem to stand the test of time.
5. I like the way it looks.

All this coming from the man that useto run an S1 elise 160 as a daily driver....

At the risk of giving my own car the hard sell...

There seems to be a tendency on here for the non GT guys to extol the virtues of the lack of hard top and the GT guys to say thats the way forward.

1.I was using mine as daily drive - the advantages of teh soft top are that you can get the roof down in 6 seconds and take adbtange of any ray of sunshine! The hard top is a two man lift i belive...

2. Thought about a 350z?

3. A bit of a tougher one this - mine lives on the drive and got broken in to a few months back. Arguably its my own fault, i left the sat nav ON THE SEAT in full view! DOH! IMO, they'd have gone through the window if it had a hard top.

4. Hmm, you need one thats just had a new roof! (see above )

5. Agreed, they do look good!

correct on the soft top, however the hardtop (depending on your size and strength) can be done on your own - i've done it a few times. my hardtop stays on in winter and has been off since April. the softtop is pretty good although it doesn't have an interior lining the same as a merc/audi does - makes it cheaper to replace if anything happens though!!!!

the 350z is no where near as much fun - decided on the s2 after driving both one after the other and following on from an slk and a boxster, the s2 was by far the most grin inspiring, although not the most refined

[ferrisbueller]

hahithestevieboy said:

ferrisbueller said:

Depends how you drive. Chassis changes on the facelift car are significant IMO.

Care to elaborate?

I thought geo changes to make it less knife edge at the back end, slightly softer, less toe to reduce tire ware and with bigger wheels?

Indeed. When I say significant I meant in terms of the way the cars drive, although the changes themselves could also be construed to be significant.

Pre-facelift S2000 is an inconsistent and potentially treacherous ally, especially in the wet. Post facelift car is much more predictable, exploitable and amiable IMO.

[DanL]

hahithestevieboy said:

Interesting re the boxter as I had the exact same thoughts. The boxter is probably a better car in many respects but I just cant get my head round the image (i know that's shallow).

I know what you mean, but if you haven't you should at least test drive one. It feels more planted and solid through fast sweeping bends than the S2000 I thought, but wasn't *so* much better that I could justify the extra purchase and running costs. The pedigree does show though.

Dan

[mikey k]

hahithestevieboy said:

ferrisbueller said:

Depends how you drive. Chassis changes on the facelift car are significant IMO.

Care to elaborate?

I thought geo changes to make it less knife edge at the back end, slightly softer, less toe to reduce tire ware and with bigger wheels?

Not just geo changes
ride height
anti roll bars
Wishbone mounting points
Dampers
Springs
Wheels
tyres
Less passive rear wheel steer (rear control arms IIRC)
VTEC cross over less aggressive

My cars?
No1 MY00 great car no issues with twitchness but I did have after market alloys and a full geo. Decided to upgrade.
No2 MY04GT never used the hardtop and found lower caster bushes seized, none warranty and Hond wanted ~£1k to do them. That got sold.
No3 MY06 Needed a car for a Eurohoon and intended to supercharge it. Found you can't on +06 EU cars
No4 MY05 now supercharged and tweaked the way I wanted the 2nd one to be

Edited by mikey k on Tuesday 1st July 15:33

[havoc]

ferrisbueller said:

hahithestevieboy said:

ferrisbueller said:

Depends how you drive. Chassis changes on the facelift car are significant IMO.

Care to elaborate?

I thought geo changes to make it less knife edge at the back end, slightly softer, less toe to reduce tire ware and with bigger wheels?

Indeed. When I say significant I meant in terms of the way the cars drive, although the changes themselves could also be construed to be significant.

Pre-facelift S2000 is an inconsistent and potentially treacherous ally, especially in the wet. Post facelift car is much more predictable, exploitable and amiable IMO.

Utter rubbish!

Sorry ferris, but I own an '03, and following some geometry changes and a switch to T1-R's (oh, and some cross-braces, but the main improvements were pre-braces), it's docile as anything, wet-or-dry! I'm no drift-expert but mine is very progressive and easy to control.

IMHO the biggest change '03-'04 was tyres - the S02's in the wet (before they warmed up) were a liability, whereas the RE050's are a lot more general-purpose. The "suspension changes" was probably little more than revising the geo settings (again) and adjusting spring/damper rates slightly to compensate for the bigger rims...nothing earth-shattering. Edit: Just seen Mikey's post - Mikey - does that lot add-up to big changes? And in what way?!? Personally, a little more comm'n aside, I wouldn't change much about mine now...


Back on-topic:
- '04 GT should easily be had for <£15k now - prices seem to be dropping quite fast.
- '03 vs '04 - the '04 looks a little nicer, but (see above) it's largely cosmetic. You lose the very nice () Monte-Carlo Blue Pearl but gain Moonrock (= metallic graphite grey) and a slight improvement inside. Wheels are individual taste - I prefer the 5-spoke 16"s, but they do look a little small...
- GT vs non - personal choice entirely, and as Mikey says don't expect an unbiased answer. I keep my car outside too so wanted a GT to protect the soft-top in winter - 8mths of the year it's in the garage. When on it makes it a bit quieter and rear-vis is much improved, but that's about it. Chassis is a little stiffer with it on too - noticeable in terms of better feedback and progression, but not massively so.

Edited by havoc on Tuesday 1st July 17:38

[ferrisbueller]

havoc said:

ferrisbueller said:

hahithestevieboy said:

ferrisbueller said:

Depends how you drive. Chassis changes on the facelift car are significant IMO.

Care to elaborate?

I thought geo changes to make it less knife edge at the back end, slightly softer, less toe to reduce tire ware and with bigger wheels?

Indeed. When I say significant I meant in terms of the way the cars drive, although the changes themselves could also be construed to be significant.

Pre-facelift S2000 is an inconsistent and potentially treacherous ally, especially in the wet. Post facelift car is much more predictable, exploitable and amiable IMO.

Utter rubbish!

Sorry ferris, but I own an '03, and following some geometry changes and a switch to T1-R's (oh, and some cross-braces, but the main improvements were pre-braces), it's docile as anything, wet-or-dry! I'm no drift-expert but mine is very progressive and easy to control.

Hmmm, now in fairness, I expressed my views as an opinion based on experience, never stated it as fact. My total experience in S2k's probably amounts to a few hundred miles in a variety of road conditions. I don't own one and have no axe to grind, although I do have a passing interest in Hondas.

So.....utter rubbish........and yet you had to modify your car in order to get it to its current state of docility?

I've only driven standard cars. Out of the box, how did you find them?

Out of interest, how much have you spent on your car to get it to this current state and would that outlay negate the extra cost of an '04 car?

Of the ones I've driven pre and post face lift are very different and the sum of the small changes equates to a much more progressive and compliant chassis that's much easier to enjoy and exploit on the road.

To expand further on experience, I could mention a close friend who was so disillusioned by his pre facelift S2000 that he took it back to Honda and got his money back.....

Still, utter rubbish......

[havoc]

ferrisbueller said:

So.....utter rubbish........and yet you had to modify your car in order to get it to its current state of docility?

I've only driven standard cars. Out of the box, how did you find them?

Out of interest, how much have you spent on your car to get it to this current state and would that outlay negate the extra cost of an '04 car?

Out of the box - completely different from car-to-car. Geometry and tyres make much more difference than '03/04/etc., IMHO.

"Mods":-
£200 on geometry and suspension-bolt greasing (say 50/50)
£300 on cross-braces (IMHO the only actual mod)
£300 on 4x tyres when the old ones wore-down.

So I guess £400 over-and-above what a couldn't-care-less owner would do (vs £2k+ p.a. avg depreciation at that age), and IMHO getting the geometry done was essential. Cross-braces make the car feel more tied-down and more communicative, and are as valuable on an '04 as an '03 (I did try to say they didn't really affect the progressivity...).

...which was why I was trying to say your comment was rubbish - the cars are very individual, as the car (all MY's) is surprisingly dependent on geo set-up. Some people would suggest that the '04 has gone soft and under-steery, so I guess it's horses-for-courses - I like the set-up in my '03, and driving back from Berkswell tonight it never got more than a few degrees out-of-shape, and 4-wheel drifted across bad-camber on a roundabout. Pretty neutral, I'd say...

[2hondadave]

I deliberately bought a 2001 car because I wanted the sharper handling setup (I do tend to like a pointy car, and have bikes too). I had no issues with the car handling wise on S02's, though you do have to go a lot slower in the wet and you have to be properly awake at all times!

I tried the 350Z, and the RX8 and a bunch of others (though not a Boxter) and chose the S because of the character which is a lot more raw than most cars (though most of that is down to how you drive it, it can be perfectly civilised if you want/need it to be).

As for a hardtop, I bought one last year, though mostly for security reasons because I thought I was going to move to South Africa. I had it on the car from Jan to April this year and it is quieter (if you can get it tight enough and greased up properly), but the soft roof doesn't tend to leak either, I used it with no issue through several winters.

I have to agree though, the biggest factor in giving the earlier cars a reputation for being hard to drive was the tires, specifically that the difference between dry and wet performance was really large, the SO2 was really a summer tire. I've gone to T1-R's (on original 16" wheels), everything else is standard, and it is now much more progressive, you know all about a slide before it happens and unless you are pushing on or provoke it are unlikely to have one IMO. I've even driven it in a couple of inches of snow without it being too scary (though is was entertaining, and very slow!). My local dealer keeps asking me if I want to spend over £15k to 'upgrade' mine to a new one, and then getting confused when I say 'why?'

At the end of the day if it's what you want then it's a great car, everybody wants something different though, otherwise life would be pretty boring.

WOW long first post!! I have been lurking a while tbf...

[hahithestevieboy]

mikey k said:

hahithestevieboy said:

ferrisbueller said:

Depends how you drive. Chassis changes on the facelift car are significant IMO.

Care to elaborate?

I thought geo changes to make it less knife edge at the back end, slightly softer, less toe to reduce tire ware and with bigger wheels?

Not just geo changes
ride height
anti roll bars
Wishbone mounting points
Dampers
Springs
Wheels
tyres
Less passive rear wheel steer (rear control arms IIRC)
VTEC cross over less aggressive

My cars?
No1 MY00 great car no issues with twitchness but I did have after market alloys and a full geo. Decided to upgrade.
No2 MY04GT never used the hardtop and found lower caster bushes seized, none warranty and Hond wanted ~£1k to do them. That got sold.
No3 MY06 Needed a car for a Eurohoon and intended to supercharge it. Found you can't on +06 EU cars
No4 MY05 now supercharged and tweaked the way I wanted the 2nd one to be

Edited by mikey k on Tuesday 1st July 15:33

Great posts guys, really really helpful. It seems like (for me) the optimum car might be an 02/03 GT (first set of geo updates and glass screen?) rather than an 04/05.

In reply to your post Mikey, I note that you now have a supercharged car. I was interested in this as I could get an older car (with perhaps relatively low mileage) at a much cheaper purchase price, and add a supercharger.

The intention would probably be to (when selling on - remove and sell separately as seems to be common with these cars)

Anyway there is a kit by TTS performance that looks good. I was wondering what installation do you have? And ofcourse what's it like to drive/reliabiltiy extra maintanence/insurance wise etc? The performance of these systems when i've seen youtube vids looks ballistic and would actually impress me with straight line speed (I've been spoiled by an S1 elise 160 - and my mum would never have to know about the supercharger).

Cheers again everyone...

Edited by hahithestevieboy on Wednesday 2nd July 15:12