Discussion
S2000 vs DC2
OK, this has been done before, but here’s my take on it having owned both for some time, so indulge me. And yes I know it's long...
Where to start? On the driveway seems sensible.
Looks: The DC2 Integra is now looking dated. It’s clearly a Japanese coupe from the 90’s, which is an unflattering start. But it’s also one of the cleanest and most coherent designs to come out of Japan in that era (RX7 excepted), and still looks the part – the rising shoulder line, the strong rear haunches, the elegant profile and the oh-so-unsubtle spoiler that promises good things underneath. So I still like it, but it’s never going to win any awards, even with me as the judge. In contrast, the S2000 is a clear head-turner. Classic roadster looks, aggressive front-end, broad squat stance on the road...it’s just what you want it to be, and I think those looks will ‘last’ better than the ‘edgy’ Z4 and the overly-contrived looks of the Boxster. Factor-in the convertible roof and its indisputable - 1-0.
Inside: Again, the Integra has dated, and it’s worse inside. The centre console was far from cutting-edge at the launch in 1996, and is pretty naff now. The instrument pack itself is plain, but works well, with a lot more ergonomic sense than displayed by latest custodian of the ‘Type R’ badge, while the materials quality is more than acceptable and proves to be hard-wearing with it. But the driving position makes all of that irrelevant. Dropping down low into the heavily-bolstered Recaro, you feel at the heart of the car, and everything falls nicely into place around you – gearstick, wheel, and pedals are all instinctively in the right place – compared to a modern hot-hatch it’s a revelation, especially in terms of height, making it feel even more special. But even that driving position must give ground to that in the S2000, which is lower still, tighter, more intimate and even better suited to the purpose of providing everything you need right at your fingertips. Combined with slim but comfortable leather seats and a brighter, more modern interior (whether you like the digital dash is open to question, but it’s unquestionably clear and easy to use) and it’s 2-0 to the S2000.
Equipment: Neither car is going to score here – in the Integra, everything is optional, right down to the stereo on the early models. Air-con and electric windows are as good as it gets here, and the audio quality is adequate at best. The S2000 fares little better – aircon and leather seats do come as standard, but the audio is little better roof-up and inadequate roof-down. Still 2-0.
OK, this has been done before, but here’s my take on it having owned both for some time, so indulge me. And yes I know it's long...
Where to start? On the driveway seems sensible.
Looks: The DC2 Integra is now looking dated. It’s clearly a Japanese coupe from the 90’s, which is an unflattering start. But it’s also one of the cleanest and most coherent designs to come out of Japan in that era (RX7 excepted), and still looks the part – the rising shoulder line, the strong rear haunches, the elegant profile and the oh-so-unsubtle spoiler that promises good things underneath. So I still like it, but it’s never going to win any awards, even with me as the judge. In contrast, the S2000 is a clear head-turner. Classic roadster looks, aggressive front-end, broad squat stance on the road...it’s just what you want it to be, and I think those looks will ‘last’ better than the ‘edgy’ Z4 and the overly-contrived looks of the Boxster. Factor-in the convertible roof and its indisputable - 1-0.
Inside: Again, the Integra has dated, and it’s worse inside. The centre console was far from cutting-edge at the launch in 1996, and is pretty naff now. The instrument pack itself is plain, but works well, with a lot more ergonomic sense than displayed by latest custodian of the ‘Type R’ badge, while the materials quality is more than acceptable and proves to be hard-wearing with it. But the driving position makes all of that irrelevant. Dropping down low into the heavily-bolstered Recaro, you feel at the heart of the car, and everything falls nicely into place around you – gearstick, wheel, and pedals are all instinctively in the right place – compared to a modern hot-hatch it’s a revelation, especially in terms of height, making it feel even more special. But even that driving position must give ground to that in the S2000, which is lower still, tighter, more intimate and even better suited to the purpose of providing everything you need right at your fingertips. Combined with slim but comfortable leather seats and a brighter, more modern interior (whether you like the digital dash is open to question, but it’s unquestionably clear and easy to use) and it’s 2-0 to the S2000.
Equipment: Neither car is going to score here – in the Integra, everything is optional, right down to the stereo on the early models. Air-con and electric windows are as good as it gets here, and the audio quality is adequate at best. The S2000 fares little better – aircon and leather seats do come as standard, but the audio is little better roof-up and inadequate roof-down. Still 2-0.
Edited by havoc on Saturday 8th March 22:28
But the looks and the toys aren’t what you buy these cars for. So it’s time to turn the key...
...and in the S2000 nothing happens, until you remember that little red button. The engine springs rapidly to life and settles down into an uninspiring idle...which is exactly what happens in the Integra. So neither car is going to win fans standing still, but both give you some inkling of what is to come when you slot home first gear to pull away, with superb gearshifts (the S2000 truly has one of the best ever) and negligible slack in both the throttle and the drivetrain.
On the move around town, both cars are firm enough to be only just the right side of uncomfortable, but both go about it in different ways. The S2000 feels stiffer of chassis and of suspension, but copes with speedhumps and transverse ridges reasonably well, while the Integra crashes a little more over speedhumps but feels less fazed by potholes and road imperfections. You can hear and feel the rattles more in the Integra too, belying its age and its humble roots. While neither is supercar-difficult, both cars make more demands of the driver than a supermini – the Integra’s steering is weighty at parking speeds and slower than the S2000’s light, responsive rack, while the S2000’s clutch has a heft to it that isn’t immediately noticeable, but that gets wearing after the 50th use while stuck in traffic. Still 2-0 then...
But now I’m out of town and the fluids have all warmed up, so it’s time for the main event.
Engine: There’s little doubt here. The S2000’s engine is a masterpiece, and it feels stronger, torquier, and more flexible, with less of the old-style VTEC mid-range deficit than the Integra. You can shift-up at 7,500rpm and still keep pace with a full-chat Integra, and on a demanding road that extra power and extra mid-range flexibility make it more user-friendly, as you don’t feel as obligated to hang onto every last rev, or to change down a bit too early to ensure get back into the power band. But it’s not all one-sided, as the B18C in the Integra sounds better, with possibly the best 4-pot engine note this side of a carburettor. And the B18C feels more special, with less inertia (which actually makes heel-and-toeing a little more difficult) giving it a more thoroughbred feel. Ultimately though, swapping back into the Integra after the S2000 and the engine actually feels a little flat. I never thought I would or could say that about the car, as in isolation it is quick enough, but the game has moved on in the last 10 years... 3-0 to the S2000 and the home fans are wondering where it’s all gone wrong!
Transmission: Sitting still, both gearshifts are fantastic. But what about on the move? The S2000 ‘shift remains superb, requiring little more than thought to change gear. The clutch takes a little getting used to however, and the ‘box can be notchy when cold. In isolation, the Integra’s shift is excellent, but compared to the S2000’s it is longer of throw and a little less precise. The upside is an easier, sweeter clutch and no notchiness. Call it a draw 4-1.
Braking: Neither car will leave you feeling short-changed here, with strong braking from even 3-figure speeds and no ‘snatchyness’ in either car. But here again it’s a clear call, and for once it’s the Integra. Better feel, better progression, and ultimately better retardation mean you can really use the middle pedal exactly how you want to, and even the better weight-distribution of the S2000 can’t recover much ground, as the Integra never really feels unsettled under braking. 4-2.
...and in the S2000 nothing happens, until you remember that little red button. The engine springs rapidly to life and settles down into an uninspiring idle...which is exactly what happens in the Integra. So neither car is going to win fans standing still, but both give you some inkling of what is to come when you slot home first gear to pull away, with superb gearshifts (the S2000 truly has one of the best ever) and negligible slack in both the throttle and the drivetrain.
On the move around town, both cars are firm enough to be only just the right side of uncomfortable, but both go about it in different ways. The S2000 feels stiffer of chassis and of suspension, but copes with speedhumps and transverse ridges reasonably well, while the Integra crashes a little more over speedhumps but feels less fazed by potholes and road imperfections. You can hear and feel the rattles more in the Integra too, belying its age and its humble roots. While neither is supercar-difficult, both cars make more demands of the driver than a supermini – the Integra’s steering is weighty at parking speeds and slower than the S2000’s light, responsive rack, while the S2000’s clutch has a heft to it that isn’t immediately noticeable, but that gets wearing after the 50th use while stuck in traffic. Still 2-0 then...
But now I’m out of town and the fluids have all warmed up, so it’s time for the main event.
Engine: There’s little doubt here. The S2000’s engine is a masterpiece, and it feels stronger, torquier, and more flexible, with less of the old-style VTEC mid-range deficit than the Integra. You can shift-up at 7,500rpm and still keep pace with a full-chat Integra, and on a demanding road that extra power and extra mid-range flexibility make it more user-friendly, as you don’t feel as obligated to hang onto every last rev, or to change down a bit too early to ensure get back into the power band. But it’s not all one-sided, as the B18C in the Integra sounds better, with possibly the best 4-pot engine note this side of a carburettor. And the B18C feels more special, with less inertia (which actually makes heel-and-toeing a little more difficult) giving it a more thoroughbred feel. Ultimately though, swapping back into the Integra after the S2000 and the engine actually feels a little flat. I never thought I would or could say that about the car, as in isolation it is quick enough, but the game has moved on in the last 10 years... 3-0 to the S2000 and the home fans are wondering where it’s all gone wrong!
Transmission: Sitting still, both gearshifts are fantastic. But what about on the move? The S2000 ‘shift remains superb, requiring little more than thought to change gear. The clutch takes a little getting used to however, and the ‘box can be notchy when cold. In isolation, the Integra’s shift is excellent, but compared to the S2000’s it is longer of throw and a little less precise. The upside is an easier, sweeter clutch and no notchiness. Call it a draw 4-1.
Braking: Neither car will leave you feeling short-changed here, with strong braking from even 3-figure speeds and no ‘snatchyness’ in either car. But here again it’s a clear call, and for once it’s the Integra. Better feel, better progression, and ultimately better retardation mean you can really use the middle pedal exactly how you want to, and even the better weight-distribution of the S2000 can’t recover much ground, as the Integra never really feels unsettled under braking. 4-2.
Steering: At last, things are swinging back the other way, for even though it is slack-free and quick (2.5-turns), the wheel in the S2000 doesn’t talk to you enough. Geometry changes and strut-braces help, but only so far. Porsche has nothing to fear in this regard from the S2000, and neither does the Integra, which has such a natural feel and weight to its’ steering, and such detail coming through that only an Elise driver could complain. Even the corruption of front-wheel-drive is well contained – there honestly isn’t enough torque to tell the car where to go in a straight-line, and around corners the superb diff gets in on the act early enough to keep the car keyed-into your chosen line. Both cars work well when the going gets rough too - on a bumpy road the worst you feel is a gentle ‘wriggle’, and even camber and potholes can’t break through the composure, giving you confidence to press-on. 4-3.
Ride and handling: Up the pace and both cars respond so very well, whatever the road conditions. But it’s the S2000 that will cause you to pause first, for two reasons. First, the quiet steering, which doesn’t give you enough confidence in the limpet-like front-end to press harder, and second the damping, which when really pressing-on on a bumpy road can feel like it’s got a little out-of-step with itself. Not enough to upset the car’s composure, but enough to upset the driver’s composure. And ultimately that’s what counts. On a give-and-take road, the Integra will keep upping its’ own game in response to you, and crucially when you do overstep the mark it tends to be in a measured and controllable way, while in the S2000 you’ll typically need more time and room (and, crucially, more skill!) to recover. But move onto an A-road, with smoother tarmac, better sight-lines, and more space, and the S2000’s chassis starts to shine again, proving even more throttle-steerable than the Integra and giving you the confidence to use its’ party-piece – power-oversteer! In the USA or mainland Europe that would be enough to make this section a score-draw, but in the UK with our legions of speed cameras, over-trafficked roads, and increasingly poor tarmac, the nod has to go to the Integra, which is more exploitable and more fun more of the time. 4-4 and there’s everything still to play for.
Grip: Is it possible to have too much grip? In the dry, on S02’s, you might think so from behind the wheel of the S2000, as it resolutely refuses to understeer almost without regard to your entry speed. Low centre-of-gravity, low polar moment-of-inertia, and stiff sidewalls mean that the S2000 will go exactly where you want it to go, time and time again. And the lack of body-roll gives you even more confidence to up the pace beyond what you thought possible. So where does that leave the Integra? Not as far behind as you might think, not unless you’re a brave S2000 driver. More roll and lower limits mean that ultimate cornering speeds are lower in the DC2, but the extra feedback and more benign handling means you are more inclined to drive right up to the limit. In the wet both cars are completely dependent upon tyres, with the OE fit (S02’s or RE010’s) being dry-optimised. A score-draw makes it 5-5.
Ownership: Both cars are Hondas, both are very well engineered and very well built, and neither should cause any real frustrations – Hamilton-Palmer alarms aside!!! Both are expensive to insure, and both like a drink. In short, there’s not a lot to separate them here – 6-6.
Ride and handling: Up the pace and both cars respond so very well, whatever the road conditions. But it’s the S2000 that will cause you to pause first, for two reasons. First, the quiet steering, which doesn’t give you enough confidence in the limpet-like front-end to press harder, and second the damping, which when really pressing-on on a bumpy road can feel like it’s got a little out-of-step with itself. Not enough to upset the car’s composure, but enough to upset the driver’s composure. And ultimately that’s what counts. On a give-and-take road, the Integra will keep upping its’ own game in response to you, and crucially when you do overstep the mark it tends to be in a measured and controllable way, while in the S2000 you’ll typically need more time and room (and, crucially, more skill!) to recover. But move onto an A-road, with smoother tarmac, better sight-lines, and more space, and the S2000’s chassis starts to shine again, proving even more throttle-steerable than the Integra and giving you the confidence to use its’ party-piece – power-oversteer! In the USA or mainland Europe that would be enough to make this section a score-draw, but in the UK with our legions of speed cameras, over-trafficked roads, and increasingly poor tarmac, the nod has to go to the Integra, which is more exploitable and more fun more of the time. 4-4 and there’s everything still to play for.
Grip: Is it possible to have too much grip? In the dry, on S02’s, you might think so from behind the wheel of the S2000, as it resolutely refuses to understeer almost without regard to your entry speed. Low centre-of-gravity, low polar moment-of-inertia, and stiff sidewalls mean that the S2000 will go exactly where you want it to go, time and time again. And the lack of body-roll gives you even more confidence to up the pace beyond what you thought possible. So where does that leave the Integra? Not as far behind as you might think, not unless you’re a brave S2000 driver. More roll and lower limits mean that ultimate cornering speeds are lower in the DC2, but the extra feedback and more benign handling means you are more inclined to drive right up to the limit. In the wet both cars are completely dependent upon tyres, with the OE fit (S02’s or RE010’s) being dry-optimised. A score-draw makes it 5-5.
Ownership: Both cars are Hondas, both are very well engineered and very well built, and neither should cause any real frustrations – Hamilton-Palmer alarms aside!!! Both are expensive to insure, and both like a drink. In short, there’s not a lot to separate them here – 6-6.
Conclusion: Can I leave it at an unsatisfying draw? Despite the many similarities, the two cars are very different to drive, and reward in different ways – the S2000 is all about the big hit of adrenalin, whether from manic acceleration, gratuitous oversteer, or just that sunny day with the wind in your hair. So if convertible motoring appeals, then you will never feel short-changed behind the wheel of the S2000 – it is a true feel-good car and regularly delivers. It is also a car which grows on you, and which you learn a lot from.
The Integra is altogether more emotional and more cerebral at the same time – the engine note when it comes on-cam still induces that big cheesy grin in me each and every time, while the joy of threading it down a B-road is heightened by the precision you can employ and the way you can push yourself and the car that little bit harder each and every time, working seamlessly together. It’s a car that gets under your skin in a very rare way, and it’s the set of keys I’d reach for given the choice...
...which is why the S2000 is going this year and the Integra is staying. Hopefully for a long time yet...
The Integra is altogether more emotional and more cerebral at the same time – the engine note when it comes on-cam still induces that big cheesy grin in me each and every time, while the joy of threading it down a B-road is heightened by the precision you can employ and the way you can push yourself and the car that little bit harder each and every time, working seamlessly together. It’s a car that gets under your skin in a very rare way, and it’s the set of keys I’d reach for given the choice...
...which is why the S2000 is going this year and the Integra is staying. Hopefully for a long time yet...
Very interesting comparison.
I myself was once thinking of trading in my 98 spec JDM ITR for an S2000 but decided against it in the end as I didnt think it would be worth the extra money I would have to fork out in order to do it, and this review makes me believe I made the right choice.
Personally, I've owned several hot hatches before the ITR, and it outclasses them all, EASILY. I've driven the highly regarded MX-5 and MR2 Roadster, and for me, despite it being FWD, the ITR outclasses those as well.
I do wonder if the JDM model I have is more firmly sprung than the UK model as it is very firm and has virtually no body roll. Personally speaking I find the car fast enough for what it is, it has just about the right amount of power for its chassis, any more I feel would make it into too much of an unruly hooligan much like most of the modern turbocharged hot hatches, which are all wheelspin and understeer. And although it might not be the fastest thing on four wheels, its still more than quick enough to lose you your license without much difficulty and I still find it pretty much quicker than most cars I encounter on the road day to day.
I've also never found its midrange too bad considering, certainly not as bad as I have been led to believe in the past.
I must admit though, if I could have both an S2000 and a ITR, I probably would, as sometimes I would just like that ability to put the roof down, but for the amount of time I'd be able to do that, I dont consider it to be worth the extra £4000 I'd have to find to fund an S2000.
I myself was once thinking of trading in my 98 spec JDM ITR for an S2000 but decided against it in the end as I didnt think it would be worth the extra money I would have to fork out in order to do it, and this review makes me believe I made the right choice.
Personally, I've owned several hot hatches before the ITR, and it outclasses them all, EASILY. I've driven the highly regarded MX-5 and MR2 Roadster, and for me, despite it being FWD, the ITR outclasses those as well.
I do wonder if the JDM model I have is more firmly sprung than the UK model as it is very firm and has virtually no body roll. Personally speaking I find the car fast enough for what it is, it has just about the right amount of power for its chassis, any more I feel would make it into too much of an unruly hooligan much like most of the modern turbocharged hot hatches, which are all wheelspin and understeer. And although it might not be the fastest thing on four wheels, its still more than quick enough to lose you your license without much difficulty and I still find it pretty much quicker than most cars I encounter on the road day to day.
I've also never found its midrange too bad considering, certainly not as bad as I have been led to believe in the past.
I must admit though, if I could have both an S2000 and a ITR, I probably would, as sometimes I would just like that ability to put the roof down, but for the amount of time I'd be able to do that, I dont consider it to be worth the extra £4000 I'd have to find to fund an S2000.
Paul - the JDM-98 does have different suspension to the UKDM car (changed to allow for the lesser sidewalls on the 16"s), so both that and the sidewalls may contribute. It's also got a better exhaust manifold which gives an extra 10bhp peak on 100RON (so say 4-7 on UK super-u/l), but a thicker mid-range too.
I seriously considered one when looking for 'teg #2, but wanted a black car and preferred the looks (and known history) of the UK cars. Might have to source a '98 manifold at some point though...
I seriously considered one when looking for 'teg #2, but wanted a black car and preferred the looks (and known history) of the UK cars. Might have to source a '98 manifold at some point though...
havoc said:
I seriously considered one when looking for 'teg #2, but wanted a black car and preferred the looks (and known history) of the UK cars. Might have to source a '98 manifold at some point though...
Gotta admit, I think the UK model does look better in black than the JDM (in black), but strangely i prefer the white JDM to the white UK model.Good luck with your search anyway
Can't say, as I've not tracked the S...in honesty, I've neither the bottle (lack of steering feel/notice at the limit DOES inhibit near/on-the-limit driving), nor the money to either insure the car on-track or absorb a bill if I DID cock-up!
I would expect the S to be a fair bit quicker in confident hands, but it to be very close in terms of 'fun'.
Edit: The 5th Gear (EP3) CTR vs S2000 comparison was IMHO staged so they could give away the cheaper car - having driven a couple of CTRs and owned 2 DC2's and an S2000, and having been on-track vs CTRs in my first DC2, I can honestly say that the (UK-spec) CTR would be clearly the slowest in the hands of pretty-much ANY driver.
I would expect the S to be a fair bit quicker in confident hands, but it to be very close in terms of 'fun'.
Edit: The 5th Gear (EP3) CTR vs S2000 comparison was IMHO staged so they could give away the cheaper car - having driven a couple of CTRs and owned 2 DC2's and an S2000, and having been on-track vs CTRs in my first DC2, I can honestly say that the (UK-spec) CTR would be clearly the slowest in the hands of pretty-much ANY driver.
Edited by havoc on Monday 10th March 14:24
Not if it was a good driver at the helm (S2000 WILL require bigger balls to drive hard in the wet), and if they were both on OE tyres - the CTR S03's are mediocre in the wet, while the S02's are very bad with standing water but good in damp-wet conditions ONCE warmed up!
Cue lots of variables that they may/may not have been aware of.
If it was on cold tyres though I can well believe it - the S2000 would have been a pig to drive at the limit...but is that necessarily a fair race?
Cue lots of variables that they may/may not have been aware of.
If it was on cold tyres though I can well believe it - the S2000 would have been a pig to drive at the limit...but is that necessarily a fair race?
IIRC they did say that a dry race would only have one outcome and that the wet track levelled things out a bit.
99.9% of Top Gear articles/tests are set ups but it's great entertainment anyway. At the time I don't think 5thGear were even that creative.
Still nice to see 5th Gear are supporting the S2000 tonight or is that VBH?
99.9% of Top Gear articles/tests are set ups but it's great entertainment anyway. At the time I don't think 5thGear were even that creative.
Still nice to see 5th Gear are supporting the S2000 tonight or is that VBH?
havoc said:
Not if it was a good driver at the helm (S2000 WILL require bigger balls to drive hard in the wet), and if they were both on OE tyres - the CTR S03's are mediocre in the wet, while the S02's are very bad with standing water but good in damp-wet conditions ONCE warmed up!
The CTR runs on RE040s, which are pretty poor in the wet, too.havoc said:
Edit: The 5th Gear (EP3) CTR vs S2000 comparison was IMHO staged so they could give away the cheaper car - having driven a couple of CTRs and owned 2 DC2's and an S2000, and having been on-track vs CTRs in my first DC2, I can honestly say that the (UK-spec) CTR would be clearly the slowest in the hands of pretty-much ANY driver.
I agree about the 5th Gear staging. Very poorly disguised as a race.However I disagree about the EP3 vs. S2000 and DC2, from personal experience on trackdays and competing in sprints. But I guess we just have our own experiences on which to judge, and thus return different verdicts.
As always, unless the same driver is driving the cars (and is equally experienced in driving each of the cars), then no firm conclusion can be reached.
Interesting thread none-the-less.
Not driven a JDM-98, but it's supposed to be a step-up from a JDM-96 in terms of braking, suspension, and a little more power.
vs a UKDM?
Braking will be similar - the JDM-96 alloys didn't permit the 282mm fronts, whereas the UKDM ones did.
Suspension? Not sure...JDM's are stiffer, but whether that's good or bad in the UK depends on what you want to use the power for.
Power? Always nice, but again can't comment on whether it's noticeable or not. Can always retrofit a JDM manifold to a UKDM car though...
Looks - entirely personal.
Kit - no different unless you went for the slightly-heavier, 'luxury'
Type-Rx.
vs a UKDM?
Braking will be similar - the JDM-96 alloys didn't permit the 282mm fronts, whereas the UKDM ones did.
Suspension? Not sure...JDM's are stiffer, but whether that's good or bad in the UK depends on what you want to use the power for.
Power? Always nice, but again can't comment on whether it's noticeable or not. Can always retrofit a JDM manifold to a UKDM car though...
Looks - entirely personal.
Kit - no different unless you went for the slightly-heavier, 'luxury'
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