Build quality or lack of it.......
Discussion
Honda's legendary build quality seems dead.
This is our fourth Honda in just over two years (a new Civic)and the build quality is shocking.
In 5000 miles the following has gone wrong:
New filler flap (now needs another as it wont open)
Rear springs fitted upside down by factory (service receptionist told me common fault)
Cigar lighter pulls out with holder (known fault)
Rear shockers noisy (need replacing although dealer says they are ok)
Rear tailgate struts not opening boot (need replacing)
Hands Free Telephone useless - needs factory mods apparently
Car has had total electrical and power failure when driving (twice - nothing found !!)
Rear brakes rattle when reversing in the morning (apparently no fix available)
The car also just feels cheap, whereas all the other Hondas felt machined a properly made.
I thought this was just isolated but reading www.civicinfo.com it seems a lot of the faults are common.
Honda dealers reaction seems to be an air of resignation. Bet their warranty claims must be going through the roof.
Anyone else suffered with problems?
This is our fourth Honda in just over two years (a new Civic)and the build quality is shocking.
In 5000 miles the following has gone wrong:
New filler flap (now needs another as it wont open)
Rear springs fitted upside down by factory (service receptionist told me common fault)
Cigar lighter pulls out with holder (known fault)
Rear shockers noisy (need replacing although dealer says they are ok)
Rear tailgate struts not opening boot (need replacing)
Hands Free Telephone useless - needs factory mods apparently
Car has had total electrical and power failure when driving (twice - nothing found !!)
Rear brakes rattle when reversing in the morning (apparently no fix available)
The car also just feels cheap, whereas all the other Hondas felt machined a properly made.
I thought this was just isolated but reading www.civicinfo.com it seems a lot of the faults are common.
Honda dealers reaction seems to be an air of resignation. Bet their warranty claims must be going through the roof.
Anyone else suffered with problems?
Dan,
Combine this with the thread on the CTR where a few are bemoaning the 'dumbing down' of Honda's previous focus on engineering excellence, do you think Honda are finally becoming 'just another car company'?
Or is it just the Swindon plant? Civics DO seem to be the main culprits (both recent models), although they are the second-cheapest machine in the Honda range (cars anyway).
Combine this with the thread on the CTR where a few are bemoaning the 'dumbing down' of Honda's previous focus on engineering excellence, do you think Honda are finally becoming 'just another car company'?
Or is it just the Swindon plant? Civics DO seem to be the main culprits (both recent models), although they are the second-cheapest machine in the Honda range (cars anyway).
Had a UK built Type R and a UK Accord and they were fine. Just appears to be the new Civic (so far).
Shame as I reckon they are becoming just another car company. I hope for their sake they dont go the way of Mercedes as they reduced quality and now they have had to spend a fortune on PR and ramping up quality.
R
Shame as I reckon they are becoming just another car company. I hope for their sake they dont go the way of Mercedes as they reduced quality and now they have had to spend a fortune on PR and ramping up quality.
R
Had a July 2002 Accord from April 2004 to Sept 2006 and the only fault was a failed oxygen sensor for which the replacement was rather expensive. Never let me down. When sold every thing still worked, no rattles and interior showed hardly any sign of wear - just the side bolster on the driver's seat creased.
Now have a Novemberr 2005 Civic Type-S bought in September 2006. Everything works and no rattles.
Drove a new Civic 1.8 for nearly 200 miles and the quality certainly seemed lower. Prefer my last model Type-S.
Now have a Novemberr 2005 Civic Type-S bought in September 2006. Everything works and no rattles.
Drove a new Civic 1.8 for nearly 200 miles and the quality certainly seemed lower. Prefer my last model Type-S.
I think there have been some big issues with regards to politics within Honda, where products are built and the parts they use. I'm also of the impression that the culture of engineering that always underpinned Honda has been ebbing away over the past few years.
Strangely, I'd look to the K20 series engines as one source of issue. We're only into the second real development phase of having this engine, and Honda have already reached the limits of what they can achieve, keeping the car n/a, without it fouling the emmission regulations. I would seriously expect them to be introducing forced induction sometime in the near future.
Honda are also seriously short on the ground with low and top end diesels, too. The Jazz and Civic could both do with a more efficient, smaller diesel engine and the Accord (and perhaps Legend) could do with at the very least a more performance orientated one. I'm sure Toyota introducing 180bhp versions of it's 2.2 will push Honda along a little.
Even so, when you look at what Honda are doing at the moment, in traditional technologies at least, they're nowhere near as advanced in relation to other players as they once were. In 1997, the F series 1.8 was just short of 140bhp and pretty fuel efficient. It was also one of the smoothest 4 cylinder engines out there. Now they have a 1.8 K series in the Civic with basically the same power, little improved fuel efficiency and it's nowhere near as smooth as the old engines (in fact, you could go as far as calling it coarse).
The F20C in the S2000 has been around for 7 years or so npw, and it seems Honda are drawing a blank there, too. Most rumours suggest a K series engined car to compete with the MX-5s of this world, rather than a fantastically revvy 250bhp 4 pot.
Take something silly like wheels. Honda always used to 'under wheel' their cars, especially the performance ones, to keep the weight and cost down, and the accelleration up. Now your standard Type-R has 18" wheels and 19" ones are an option. Christ on a bike, the DC2 had 15" wheels!
All in all you could put a lot of things down to continental regulations. With Honda having to push for volume in the US and EU markets, and those in particular having stringent regulations moving at a very fast pace, Honda are having to 180 degree from their old philosophies at a very fast rate. Hence the consideration that EU rules make it easier for turbocharging to keep within the emmissions regs, whereas it's more difficult using the traditional Honda way of simply increasing revs.
How interesting would it have been, if the DC2 had taken the different route Honda experimented with- supercharged 4wd?
Strangely, I'd look to the K20 series engines as one source of issue. We're only into the second real development phase of having this engine, and Honda have already reached the limits of what they can achieve, keeping the car n/a, without it fouling the emmission regulations. I would seriously expect them to be introducing forced induction sometime in the near future.
Honda are also seriously short on the ground with low and top end diesels, too. The Jazz and Civic could both do with a more efficient, smaller diesel engine and the Accord (and perhaps Legend) could do with at the very least a more performance orientated one. I'm sure Toyota introducing 180bhp versions of it's 2.2 will push Honda along a little.
Even so, when you look at what Honda are doing at the moment, in traditional technologies at least, they're nowhere near as advanced in relation to other players as they once were. In 1997, the F series 1.8 was just short of 140bhp and pretty fuel efficient. It was also one of the smoothest 4 cylinder engines out there. Now they have a 1.8 K series in the Civic with basically the same power, little improved fuel efficiency and it's nowhere near as smooth as the old engines (in fact, you could go as far as calling it coarse).
The F20C in the S2000 has been around for 7 years or so npw, and it seems Honda are drawing a blank there, too. Most rumours suggest a K series engined car to compete with the MX-5s of this world, rather than a fantastically revvy 250bhp 4 pot.
Take something silly like wheels. Honda always used to 'under wheel' their cars, especially the performance ones, to keep the weight and cost down, and the accelleration up. Now your standard Type-R has 18" wheels and 19" ones are an option. Christ on a bike, the DC2 had 15" wheels!
All in all you could put a lot of things down to continental regulations. With Honda having to push for volume in the US and EU markets, and those in particular having stringent regulations moving at a very fast pace, Honda are having to 180 degree from their old philosophies at a very fast rate. Hence the consideration that EU rules make it easier for turbocharging to keep within the emmissions regs, whereas it's more difficult using the traditional Honda way of simply increasing revs.
How interesting would it have been, if the DC2 had taken the different route Honda experimented with- supercharged 4wd?
I have a new shape '06 Civic as a company car;
1. The fuel flap on mine does work but only after repeated yanks on the handle - I doubt it will be too long before I have to force it open to re-fuel
2. None of the cabin coutesy lights work (bar the boot) - a real pain in the winter time
Not brilliant, but it has been much better than the Vauxhall I had before it! (squeaky brakes and power steering rack failure at 6 just weeks old!)
1. The fuel flap on mine does work but only after repeated yanks on the handle - I doubt it will be too long before I have to force it open to re-fuel
2. None of the cabin coutesy lights work (bar the boot) - a real pain in the winter time
Not brilliant, but it has been much better than the Vauxhall I had before it! (squeaky brakes and power steering rack failure at 6 just weeks old!)
Didn't the new Mini have the same sort of quality niggles to start with and were they not ironed out in time? Is this not the usual thing with a totally new development i.e. that the early ones are problematic? Or has this car been around a while in Japan? I always prefer to wait a while for the issues to be addressed through manufacturers revisions to components and materials, then get one that's hopefully a bit better sorted. I hope the issues get sorted, because i was looking at getting one.
honda are very aware of the issues, but they seem to still be churning them out. As you tell I'm pretty peeved. It's easily the worst car I have owned in many years (and makes my TVR look like a paragon of reliability).
I think I will be getting rid but I will be taking a real hit financially.
R
I think I will be getting rid but I will be taking a real hit financially.
R
Our 2003 Accord which we have had since new, has been faultless. My first ever Honda and by far the most reliable car I have ever owned. Also by far the best dealer I have ever dealt with 
The alloy wheels started to tarnish badly, but they were replaced under guarantee, no fussing either.
Must be just the new Civic then?
The alloy wheels started to tarnish badly, but they were replaced under guarantee, no fussing either.
Must be just the new Civic then?
10 Pence Short said:
Strangely, I'd look to the K20 series engines as one source of issue. We're only into the second real development phase of having this engine, and Honda have already reached the limits of what they can achieve, keeping the car n/a, without it fouling the emmission regulations. I would seriously expect them to be introducing forced induction sometime in the near future.
What about the "Advanced VTEC" - fancy name for continuously variable valve lift and timing - thought to be introduced in the next Accord? www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=615777
10 Pence Short said:
Honda are also seriously short on the ground with low and top end diesels, too. The Jazz and Civic could both do with a more efficient, smaller diesel engine and the Accord (and perhaps Legend) could do with at the very least a more performance orientated one. I'm sure Toyota introducing 180bhp versions of it's 2.2 will push Honda along a little.
Honda CEO has been quoted in several interviews that for small cars, hybrid is the preferred solution due to their use in congested cities with lots of stop-start driving. Performance diesels (an oxymoron IMHO) may be fashionable in Europe but things are very different in US and Japan, at least for the time being.
10 Pence Short said:
Even so, when you look at what Honda are doing at the moment, in traditional technologies at least, they're nowhere near as advanced in relation to other players as they once were. In 1997, the F series 1.8 was just short of 140bhp and pretty fuel efficient. It was also one of the smoothest 4 cylinder engines out there. Now they have a 1.8 K series in the Civic with basically the same power, little improved fuel efficiency and it's nowhere near as smooth as the old engines (in fact, you could go as far as calling it coarse).
I'll be very surprised if emissions haven't significantly improved since 97; the current engines also need to carry much heavier bodies around, with the attendant improvement in safety. Is there any evidence that their engines are underpowered or less efficient these days compared to the direct competitors?
10 Pence Short said:
The F20C in the S2000 has been around for 7 years or so npw, and it seems Honda are drawing a blank there, too. Most rumours suggest a K series engined car to compete with the MX-5s of this world, rather than a fantastically revvy 250bhp 4 pot.
The S2000 has hardly been a big success, and all the press criticism of its engine's allegedly peaky nature couldn't have filled Honda with warm feelings for an encore.
10 Pence Short said:
How interesting would it have been, if the DC2 had taken the different route Honda experimented with- supercharged 4wd?
I have always thought that it was a one-off development mule for the ATTS/SH-AWD, and was never meant for production.
RLD said:
Honda CEO has been quoted in several interviews that for small cars, hybrid is the preferred solution due to their use in congested cities with lots of stop-start driving. Performance diesels (an oxymoron IMHO) may be fashionable in Europe but things are very different in US and Japan, at least for the time being.
Hybrids are surely just a short term stop gap before we utilise a better technology. I'm not convinced (and I don't think that many punters are convinced) by hybrid technology. Unless you're a Hollywood star looking for cheap publicity.
I can't stand diesels, but if Honda are prepared to develop whole new EU only models, then they should also put in the much smaller effort of competing in those markets with respect to engine technology, too.
RLD said:
I'll be very surprised if emissions haven't significantly improved since 97; the current engines also need to carry much heavier bodies around, with the attendant improvement in safety. Is there any evidence that their engines are underpowered or less efficient these days compared to the direct competitors?
It took Toyota a long time to match the B18, I'm not sure anyone has matched the B16. The F20 hasn't for sure. The K series engines are neither the most powerful in their classes, nor the most efficient or clean. Neither is the diesel. Honda traditionally have had the best specific outputs per litre compared to any mass manufacturer, now I'm not convinced.
10 Pence Short said:
How interesting would it have been, if the DC2 had taken the different route Honda experimented with- supercharged 4wd?
RLD said:
I have always thought that it was a one-off development mule for the ATTS/SH-AWD, and was never meant for production.
In a way. The supercharged engine was simply an effective way of really pushing the 4wd system to the limit in testing.
10 Pence Short said:
Hybrids are surely just a short term stop gap before we utilise a better technology. I'm not convinced (and I don't think that many punters are convinced) by hybrid technology. Unless you're a Hollywood star looking for cheap publicity.
Hybrids have always been just a short-term stop gap if you look at the early Honda literature; it's just that they have been effectively capitalised by Toyota to sell an image of social responsiblity and advanced technology while they continue to sell V8 Landcruisers. Which is why Honda has been investing in fuel cells and the like - whether you think that is the answer is another question.
10 Pence Short said:
It took Toyota a long time to match the B18, I'm not sure anyone has matched the B16. The F20 hasn't for sure. The K series engines are neither the most powerful in their classes, nor the most efficient or clean. Neither is the diesel. Honda traditionally have had the best specific outputs per litre compared to any mass manufacturer, now I'm not convinced.
I'm not sure anyone was all that interested in matching it, because there have always been arguably easier ways to make power (e.g. forced induction) if you could manage issues of reliability and cost. Companies like Honda and BMW have relatively unique philosophies on powertrains that produce power/litre showpieces such as the B series and F20C, but I'm not sure that for the bigger selling bread and butter models (e.g. D series) the difference between Honda and others have ever been that big.
There have been Hondas in my family since 1984 and I've been of the opinion that build quality peaked sometime between 1990 and the middle part of the decade.
I do a lot of business with Japan and have sat up late drinking Sake with business counterparts. It seems to me that the nineties peak of quality in Japanese-owned companies is non-exclusive to cars, but also to electronics / other goods as well.
The Japanese tradition of personal honour combined with the "make it better, but more affordable" ethic has sadly ebbed away over the last decade or so, with Japanese OEMs farming out manufacture abroad. I believe the majority of inherent reliability in products comes from staff morale; once that starts to slip, reliability goes (witness BL in the seventies...). Not only that,but many Japanese firms are too influenced by what's happening abroad, rather than focussing on the indigenous Japanese traits that made the brand famous in the first place (the words 'baby' and 'bathwater' spring to mind).
The current 2001 Honda we have is nowhere near as well-built, or well-thought-out as the previous 1995 model... More rattles, twitchy throttle, fewer nice touches and definitely more penny-pinching.
The current model (it was bought as a stop gap) will need changing at some point and I'm worried that the 23 year love affair with Honda could be coming to an end... Mazda seem to rank well in the surveys...
I do a lot of business with Japan and have sat up late drinking Sake with business counterparts. It seems to me that the nineties peak of quality in Japanese-owned companies is non-exclusive to cars, but also to electronics / other goods as well.
The Japanese tradition of personal honour combined with the "make it better, but more affordable" ethic has sadly ebbed away over the last decade or so, with Japanese OEMs farming out manufacture abroad. I believe the majority of inherent reliability in products comes from staff morale; once that starts to slip, reliability goes (witness BL in the seventies...). Not only that,but many Japanese firms are too influenced by what's happening abroad, rather than focussing on the indigenous Japanese traits that made the brand famous in the first place (the words 'baby' and 'bathwater' spring to mind).
The current 2001 Honda we have is nowhere near as well-built, or well-thought-out as the previous 1995 model... More rattles, twitchy throttle, fewer nice touches and definitely more penny-pinching.
The current model (it was bought as a stop gap) will need changing at some point and I'm worried that the 23 year love affair with Honda could be coming to an end... Mazda seem to rank well in the surveys...
Edited by flat16 on Thursday 8th February 15:10
BigGriff said:
Sad really.
R
R
Agreed.
Would I be right in thinking it's a large-chain dealership?
I noticed in Cov that when the small chain got bought out by Listers the customer service deteriorated, and have found the 'independent' franchised dealer to offer better service consistently (Honda, Ford, Subaru, friend with Peugeots...)
saddens me greatly as i love my Honda's but their current line up is a disgrace. With no foreseeable cars in their line up worth buying I won't be buying another new Honda. I think the mid and late 90's were the top of the hill for the Big H. Even Mugen which was Honda's vaginal lodestone is a joke now, churning out body kits and stick on tat for those stupid little Kei class cars, and no real performance parts.
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