New Honda Civic Type R
Discussion
Thanks Gazboy for that excellent (if not grammatically correct in places) review of your brief test session.
Sounds like you were may be not quite in the right frame of mind since you were obviously pushed for time.
Not to suggest you aren't being fair, just maybe you had built up more expectation or anxiety about the car than you would normally, if you trying one at a dealer's.
It does seem to come across as though the new CTR is heavily compromised, and a bit unsure of itself - insofar as it's role in life.
Everyone knocking the gearing based on specs, I thought was a bit foolish. But it seems they may be right - given 6th isn't a cruising gear for M'ways.
So, does this mean the CTR becomes a trackday weapon only, with a few creature comforts (presuming one doesn't load it up with the various weighty options)?
Sounds like you were may be not quite in the right frame of mind since you were obviously pushed for time.
Not to suggest you aren't being fair, just maybe you had built up more expectation or anxiety about the car than you would normally, if you trying one at a dealer's.
It does seem to come across as though the new CTR is heavily compromised, and a bit unsure of itself - insofar as it's role in life.
Everyone knocking the gearing based on specs, I thought was a bit foolish. But it seems they may be right - given 6th isn't a cruising gear for M'ways.
So, does this mean the CTR becomes a trackday weapon only, with a few creature comforts (presuming one doesn't load it up with the various weighty options)?
so dissappointing to read that. in fact, it sounds worse than i expected.
i went for a blast in my (outgoing) type-R yesterday, having filled up with V-power.
what a hoot! imperfect FWD traction & steering feel aside, the rear wishbones hug the corners nicely, and the gearchange is just heaven - low gearing but not too low (6th = 5th in my runabout). this is why they have sold so many of the damn things. sadly, the new one sounds pants. they've sacrified everything for boot space and a flatter torque curve.
£20k - they are having a larf. £3k more will get a nice 1yr old 350Z GT with 300bhp.
Interesting and appreciated review Gaz. I have a 2002 CTR and it's not going to be replaced with the new one. Riding on reputation is not something I like. Why don't they call it an Type-S and leave space for a light-weight ATB diff'd super-responsive, aggressive i-VTEC'd Type-R.
Perhaps they won't bother as the Integra does that well - although it's not officially imported into the UK and hence is written off for the most part.
Shame. I see a repeat of VW and the Golf GTI (OK, the new one is better than the Mk4 and Mk3 but NOT as good as a Mk2 and definitely not a patch on the Mk1 as a driving experience...
The rear suspension is now torsion bar - this is done for boot space and cost. If torsion bars were as good as double wishbones every F1 car would have them.
Perhaps they won't bother as the Integra does that well - although it's not officially imported into the UK and hence is written off for the most part.
Shame. I see a repeat of VW and the Golf GTI (OK, the new one is better than the Mk4 and Mk3 but NOT as good as a Mk2 and definitely not a patch on the Mk1 as a driving experience...
The rear suspension is now torsion bar - this is done for boot space and cost. If torsion bars were as good as double wishbones every F1 car would have them.
Hmmmm... I really have my doubts about this new Civic just as I had my doubts when I purchased a CTR in 2002. How they can say the last Civic had steering wheel feedback is beyond me, my force feedback steering wheel on my PS2 had more than my CTR did!
I think Autocar's review sums it up and I think overall the car will be disappointing for those expecting alot.
www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/FirstDrives/Honda-Civic-2.0-i-VTEC-Type-R/223990/
I would consider a Clio197, Focus ST, Golf GTi, Astra VXR and even an old Focus RS over this car. Honda, what are you doing??!!!
I think Autocar's review sums it up and I think overall the car will be disappointing for those expecting alot.
www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/FirstDrives/Honda-Civic-2.0-i-VTEC-Type-R/223990/
I would consider a Clio197, Focus ST, Golf GTi, Astra VXR and even an old Focus RS over this car. Honda, what are you doing??!!!
Interesting article there Gazboy, if a little long-winded 
The pro articles are starting to come in thick and fast. Autocar didn't seem to like it from when they saw it on paper, so I wasn't too surprised to see a negative article from them.
I work for one of Honda's partners, and I’m a life long Honda fan, so I guess I would be a little biased in my positive feelings towards it. However, my college drove one on a track against the ASBO and GTI and was genuinely impressed with the dynamics and pace compared to the other two driving them back to back. And I’ve just got hold of Car (issue 535) and they have a much more positive outlook on it as tested against pretty much every other hot hatch on the market, so even withstanding my obvious bias, I’m surprised you’re all crossing it off quite so easily.
“To drive the new Civic Type R is to find petrol-head nirvana. It will be remembered as one of the greats” is a the final quote from CAR.
I’ve scanned in the verdict page, but you might want to give it a read, I’ll be really interested to hear Evo’s opinion myself.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y79/
You could say they've sold out a little from the Type R heritage; personally I am a big DC2 Fan, so my preference would be stripped out and track ready. However, ultimately you're talking about one of the most aggressively competitive sectors (h/hatches), and the whole market offering has more technology, more gadgets more refined interiors etc. So they don’t really have a choice but to respond to that market demand, or they’ll only appeal to a very small section of the hot hatch market (people like you and I). However, the above article seems to suggest they get the balance between refinement and performance better than the rest of the pack. Whether you wanna keep hold of your EP3 or trade it in for a new one I guess is a matter of personal taste. Personally I’d still love to have a DC2, but if I was going to have a modern hot hatch, there is no question I would buy a new Civic Type R.
Cheers,
Nick
The pro articles are starting to come in thick and fast. Autocar didn't seem to like it from when they saw it on paper, so I wasn't too surprised to see a negative article from them.
I work for one of Honda's partners, and I’m a life long Honda fan, so I guess I would be a little biased in my positive feelings towards it. However, my college drove one on a track against the ASBO and GTI and was genuinely impressed with the dynamics and pace compared to the other two driving them back to back. And I’ve just got hold of Car (issue 535) and they have a much more positive outlook on it as tested against pretty much every other hot hatch on the market, so even withstanding my obvious bias, I’m surprised you’re all crossing it off quite so easily.
“To drive the new Civic Type R is to find petrol-head nirvana. It will be remembered as one of the greats” is a the final quote from CAR.
I’ve scanned in the verdict page, but you might want to give it a read, I’ll be really interested to hear Evo’s opinion myself.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y79/
You could say they've sold out a little from the Type R heritage; personally I am a big DC2 Fan, so my preference would be stripped out and track ready. However, ultimately you're talking about one of the most aggressively competitive sectors (h/hatches), and the whole market offering has more technology, more gadgets more refined interiors etc. So they don’t really have a choice but to respond to that market demand, or they’ll only appeal to a very small section of the hot hatch market (people like you and I). However, the above article seems to suggest they get the balance between refinement and performance better than the rest of the pack. Whether you wanna keep hold of your EP3 or trade it in for a new one I guess is a matter of personal taste. Personally I’d still love to have a DC2, but if I was going to have a modern hot hatch, there is no question I would buy a new Civic Type R.
Cheers,
Nick
Edited by lil'nick on Monday 29th January 14:17
Gazboy, Your opinion (which seems to match that of Autocar) is being discussed here....
www.civinfo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3302
Only fair you have a look see and Your "CTR owner's" own review
www.civinfo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3302
Only fair you have a look see and Your "CTR owner's" own review
Adding my two pence worth has been quite a long and drawn out thinking process. I was quite lucky compared to Gaz and managed to get a much better drive than he did, however I still feel that the short demonstration that we were allowed wasn't enough to provide a proper review of the car.
My feelings are that the "hot hatch" market has been changing fairly significantly over the past few years. Gone are cars like the 205 GTI, MK1/2 Golf GTI's and Clio Williams. Gone are very light, simple and cheap cars. I think this has been partly down to insurance premiums pricing what used to be the core demographic (young males) out of the market for this type of car, and also the public have been gradually wanting more. This means that cars are getting bigger. They need bigger, more powerfull engines. We demand that they have climate control, cruise control, 8 air bags, navigation etc.....
For a company like Honda I can see this causing a lot of concern at the design stage. There are I'm sure peolpe who would love to be able walk into there local Peugeot dealer and buy a brand new 205 1.9 GTI. But, there are a whole lot more who would like to do the same but have it with a bigger boot, A/C, airbags etc... This I think is where Honda have had to bite the bullet and make a car designed to appeal to a bigger market. To that end they have done a really good job. Gaz said a couple of times while we were out in the car that his Mum would love it. I think he's probably right. The CTR (like most other cars in it's class) is very spacious. It's easy to drive, the controls are all quite light and easy to use. The clutch isn't grabby and it doesn't torque steer. If you want a quick car that you can use everyday and cart the family round in reasanble comfort it does the job admirably.
The test we did was very short, we didn't get to push the car all that hard and most of the drive was well within the limits of what can be considered sensible. I did get quite a few impressions from the drive. The one thing that has been discussed on here and on Civinfo.com is the gearing. This I did find a little strange. As Gaz has said it does have a close ratio box. It is in my opinion geared in a way to flatter the "lack" of torque inherent in a small capacity/high horsepower engine in a not very light car. This is another thing caused by the need to meet emision and fuel consumption requirements. I did find it a bit buzzy, but quite comfortable around 60-70mph. It does have a very good change although not quite up to S2000 standard. I think the gearing would be great fun on a track and at the end of the day you will get used to it on the road after longer in the car.
The suspension on the car was superb. It felt quite firmly damped, firmer than I was expecting, but it didn't crash over bumps even pulling into the change over point on a badly surfaced gravel car park. It felt very composed, but I couldn't see myself throwing it around in the same way you can in a Clio 172/182. I think it would suit a more measured driving style, not quite so hard on the turn in and smoother on the throttle on the exit. It will undoubtably be very quick down a country road. My one bugbear (and this goes for a lot of more modern cars) is there wasn't a huge sensation of speed. We were cruising along a nice flowing road at what turned out to be a few mph over the limit and it didn't feel like we were speeding. This I believe is also a lot to do with the engine. I've driven a few VTEC type engine's (mainly Toyota lumps in Elise 111r's, and a couple of S2000's) and I was expecting there to be a big step in the power delivery. Now during the briefing they had said that they have smoothed out the transition quite a bit, but I think they are missing a trick as I was led to believe half of having a Type R is having almost two cars in one. I found the engine very underwhelming.
On the way home we were chatting about cars and trying to work out if we would buy one and we both came to the conclusion that we wouldn't. It boiled down to would I like a CTR/Golf GTI/Focus ST/Astra VXR etc? If I was choosing between current hot hatches in the class that Honda told us they were targeting I would look very carefully at it and then go and buy either the VXR or a chipped Golf because I like a car that feels fast and gives you a thrill when you put your foot down and to my mind the Civic just doesn't do that. My other battle is would I spend £20000 on a new hot hatch when I could buy an E34 M5 for commuting and have a Caterham for fun and run them for the depreciation over 3 years on the new Civic. Now that's my best idea!
Cheers
Gavin
My feelings are that the "hot hatch" market has been changing fairly significantly over the past few years. Gone are cars like the 205 GTI, MK1/2 Golf GTI's and Clio Williams. Gone are very light, simple and cheap cars. I think this has been partly down to insurance premiums pricing what used to be the core demographic (young males) out of the market for this type of car, and also the public have been gradually wanting more. This means that cars are getting bigger. They need bigger, more powerfull engines. We demand that they have climate control, cruise control, 8 air bags, navigation etc.....
For a company like Honda I can see this causing a lot of concern at the design stage. There are I'm sure peolpe who would love to be able walk into there local Peugeot dealer and buy a brand new 205 1.9 GTI. But, there are a whole lot more who would like to do the same but have it with a bigger boot, A/C, airbags etc... This I think is where Honda have had to bite the bullet and make a car designed to appeal to a bigger market. To that end they have done a really good job. Gaz said a couple of times while we were out in the car that his Mum would love it. I think he's probably right. The CTR (like most other cars in it's class) is very spacious. It's easy to drive, the controls are all quite light and easy to use. The clutch isn't grabby and it doesn't torque steer. If you want a quick car that you can use everyday and cart the family round in reasanble comfort it does the job admirably.
The test we did was very short, we didn't get to push the car all that hard and most of the drive was well within the limits of what can be considered sensible. I did get quite a few impressions from the drive. The one thing that has been discussed on here and on Civinfo.com is the gearing. This I did find a little strange. As Gaz has said it does have a close ratio box. It is in my opinion geared in a way to flatter the "lack" of torque inherent in a small capacity/high horsepower engine in a not very light car. This is another thing caused by the need to meet emision and fuel consumption requirements. I did find it a bit buzzy, but quite comfortable around 60-70mph. It does have a very good change although not quite up to S2000 standard. I think the gearing would be great fun on a track and at the end of the day you will get used to it on the road after longer in the car.
The suspension on the car was superb. It felt quite firmly damped, firmer than I was expecting, but it didn't crash over bumps even pulling into the change over point on a badly surfaced gravel car park. It felt very composed, but I couldn't see myself throwing it around in the same way you can in a Clio 172/182. I think it would suit a more measured driving style, not quite so hard on the turn in and smoother on the throttle on the exit. It will undoubtably be very quick down a country road. My one bugbear (and this goes for a lot of more modern cars) is there wasn't a huge sensation of speed. We were cruising along a nice flowing road at what turned out to be a few mph over the limit and it didn't feel like we were speeding. This I believe is also a lot to do with the engine. I've driven a few VTEC type engine's (mainly Toyota lumps in Elise 111r's, and a couple of S2000's) and I was expecting there to be a big step in the power delivery. Now during the briefing they had said that they have smoothed out the transition quite a bit, but I think they are missing a trick as I was led to believe half of having a Type R is having almost two cars in one. I found the engine very underwhelming.
On the way home we were chatting about cars and trying to work out if we would buy one and we both came to the conclusion that we wouldn't. It boiled down to would I like a CTR/Golf GTI/Focus ST/Astra VXR etc? If I was choosing between current hot hatches in the class that Honda told us they were targeting I would look very carefully at it and then go and buy either the VXR or a chipped Golf because I like a car that feels fast and gives you a thrill when you put your foot down and to my mind the Civic just doesn't do that. My other battle is would I spend £20000 on a new hot hatch when I could buy an E34 M5 for commuting and have a Caterham for fun and run them for the depreciation over 3 years on the new Civic. Now that's my best idea!
Cheers
Gavin
again, thanks guys for the feedback, and actually driving one, but as it's been said previously many times on this thread... this sounds like a TYPE-S, not a TYPE-R - i don't want a car my mum wants to drive! maybe they could have called it the type-RS... or maybe a Hyundai Coupe.
the old type-R had air-conditioning, airbags, etc. - arguably the only two things it needed were soundproofing (less road noise at least) and SatNav as an option.
all this talk about the market moving on - how many civic type-R's were sold last year - was it really that out-of-date? has the market moved on so much?
i'm still hoping they bring out a 'proper' type-R... cos i can't see the unique selling point of this model anymore, aside from the nice-looking dash.
[still banging his head against the wall]
the old type-R had air-conditioning, airbags, etc. - arguably the only two things it needed were soundproofing (less road noise at least) and SatNav as an option.
all this talk about the market moving on - how many civic type-R's were sold last year - was it really that out-of-date? has the market moved on so much?
i'm still hoping they bring out a 'proper' type-R... cos i can't see the unique selling point of this model anymore, aside from the nice-looking dash.
[still banging his head against the wall]
Edited by fido on Monday 29th January 21:31
fido said:
the old type-R had air-conditioning, airbags, etc. - arguably the only two things it needed were soundproofing (less road noise at least) and SatNav as an option.
all this talk about the market moving on - how many civic type-R's were sold last year - was it really that out-of-date? has the market moved on so much?
all this talk about the market moving on - how many civic type-R's were sold last year - was it really that out-of-date? has the market moved on so much?
It does seem a bit oxymoronic, given that they anticipated selling 1600 CTRs, but ended up selling 10K (or was it 15K?) of the outgoing model.
Granted the outgoing CTR wasn't a full on Type R ultimately, but it was more Type R than the new one.
It would seem to me, that the design of the Civic in general has had a marked effect on what Honda could ultimately do with it as far as a Type R was concerned.
So, because they had one arm tied behind their back already, they may do the best they can with the free one.
Edited by PJ S on Monday 29th January 23:25
Nice personal take on the new CTr
If i were to slate 2 areas of my old civic
6th gear was way to short, revving the nuts off at 70 mph quickly becomes tiring. Motorways were not places I wanted to go
Steering feel/feedback....or should I say the lack of it. It felt like steering was a remote experience.
I hope those have been ironed out by the time the car hits the road, but by the sounds of it the box is still way off the mark.
The handling and traction faults of the old car actually made the car fun, i prefered to look at them as driver involvement
I like the looks of the new car, but I don't think i'll be buying one.
If i were to slate 2 areas of my old civic
6th gear was way to short, revving the nuts off at 70 mph quickly becomes tiring. Motorways were not places I wanted to go
Steering feel/feedback....or should I say the lack of it. It felt like steering was a remote experience.
I hope those have been ironed out by the time the car hits the road, but by the sounds of it the box is still way off the mark.
The handling and traction faults of the old car actually made the car fun, i prefered to look at them as driver involvement
I like the looks of the new car, but I don't think i'll be buying one.
There's already a lightweight Type R promised, but part of th eproblem seems to be the compromised MacPherson strut suspension where one would usually find a double wishbone setup. I think they chose packaging efficiency over on-road dynamics, which is a crying shame. As far as the engine goes, Honda have done the right thing in my opinion and gone for better tractability instead of raw horsepower numbers. Still, perhaps the 2.2 version of the S2000 motor will eventually find its way into a Type R+ or Type RS soon.
It sounds like a VTI to me, rather than the Type-R.
Honda, at first any way, didn't produce the Type-R to be a volume seller. The Type-R was supposed to be the incarnation of how far the engineers could push the envelope without spending silly money.
This new Type-R demonstrates nothing more than the fact that Honda PR now rules over Honda engineering, which to me is a shame.
Honda are quite happy to sell this new Type-R on the reputation built by previous models. I hope that this habit of diluting the concept doesn't come back to haunt them in a couple of generations, a la Golf GTI Mk3.
Honda, at first any way, didn't produce the Type-R to be a volume seller. The Type-R was supposed to be the incarnation of how far the engineers could push the envelope without spending silly money.
This new Type-R demonstrates nothing more than the fact that Honda PR now rules over Honda engineering, which to me is a shame.
Honda are quite happy to sell this new Type-R on the reputation built by previous models. I hope that this habit of diluting the concept doesn't come back to haunt them in a couple of generations, a la Golf GTI Mk3.
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