DC5 Integra Versus S2000
Discussion
Hi,
First time for me posting a topic here but here goes. Can anyone here give me advice about whether I'd be wasting my time selling my DC5 Type R Integra for an S2000. I am planning to either sell my 2001 Teg and buy a newer one or change to an S2000. I've read alot of mixed reviews about the S2000. Some reviewers seem to love it, others seem to mis-understand it, but all the reviews I've read about the Integra say it's wonderful. Evo magazine even said that the DC5 is one of the greatest drivers cars available today. Any info/help any of you can give me would be very much appreciated.
John
First time for me posting a topic here but here goes. Can anyone here give me advice about whether I'd be wasting my time selling my DC5 Type R Integra for an S2000. I am planning to either sell my 2001 Teg and buy a newer one or change to an S2000. I've read alot of mixed reviews about the S2000. Some reviewers seem to love it, others seem to mis-understand it, but all the reviews I've read about the Integra say it's wonderful. Evo magazine even said that the DC5 is one of the greatest drivers cars available today. Any info/help any of you can give me would be very much appreciated.
John
I'd have thought the question could be self answered if you factor in the need (or not) to carry more than one other person in the car with you, at any one time.
Never having had the luxury of being able to consider a two seater only, practicality always rules it for me.
Of course, you could up the stakes and look at importing an '03 Euro-R Accord, unless the amount needed to do so is not applicable.
Never having had the luxury of being able to consider a two seater only, practicality always rules it for me.
Of course, you could up the stakes and look at importing an '03 Euro-R Accord, unless the amount needed to do so is not applicable.
Evo mag said it was the DC2 integra that was one of the greatest handling cars. they said the DC5 was raw,with massively corrupted steering and a sledgehammer LSD.which i think is over critical.I was considering the S2000 and drove the post 04 model which is meant to have a slight improvement in handling. I found it to be unnerving near the limit,the back end stepped out of line once big time suddenly.I am not experienced or good enough to get the most out of this car as it was shear luck my opposite lock brought about a return to a straight line.I prefer the chuckability and handling of the integras. if you are have a test dive of s2000 and like it, Motorpoint sell brand new ones for 21k which is a massive discount over main dealer prices. I have driven a boxter and that was a much easier car to control on the limit.Used prices have dropped recently and defenitly worth thinking about if you want 2 seater roadster.
Having owned and tracked an S2000 (amongst other more exotic machinery) I can vouch it is one of the most neutral, stable cars I have ever taken to my limits...it is relatively slow for my taste but certainly faster than all stock Integras (I have tested this on Bedford's long straight)...no point referring to reliabilty as they are both Hondas...the trick with the S2000 and the reason why people find its handling tricky is because they enter bends outside the higher torgue range, the car "runs out of power" and oversteers almost as if you are applying the brakes...I found entry speed very satisfactory, traction predictable and forgiving and stability at high speed adequate for a roadster...keep your foot down and the car will gently and neutrally "open" its line...if you want to be playful apply the brakes hard before entry and then put your foot down, oversteer sweetly controllable...
It would be an S2000 in my humble opinion and thats not even taking looks and styling into account...
For even less money you could also get your hands on another hot Honda, a Civic Type R, the best hatch ever in my opinion...
Good luck with your choice.
It would be an S2000 in my humble opinion and thats not even taking looks and styling into account...
For even less money you could also get your hands on another hot Honda, a Civic Type R, the best hatch ever in my opinion...
Good luck with your choice.
I've owned both cars, but the other way around - had an S2000 first and went to the DC5 after a mishap on the motorway. Here's a copy and paste of a comparison I posted in another thread:
Basically, I think DC5 to S2000 would be a very good move if you can afford to lose the back seats and extra comforts. It's a bit faster, has a much nicer feel to it being RWD and you have the benefit of convertible motoring. It will feel very different at first, but once you get used to it you will love the slingshot effect on roundabouts
Me said:
I'm loving the DC5 but it's a different animal to the S2000. Quick, edited comparison I posted elsewhere:
- The DC5 has more power/ torque low down in the rev range, it feels more flexible than the F20C in the S. At the top end though, the S feels like it has the edge. In terms of outright straight-line speed there's very little in it.
- The S is much better at getting the power down than the DC5 thanks to being RWD. The DC5 suffers from torque steer when being driven hard, the S is more refined in that respect. There is more feel to the steering in the DC5 though, it's heavy and feels like you're steering a go kart.
- Handling. I think I can take corners faster in the DC5, it has so much grip (provided the surface is smooth as it doesn't like bumps at all, the suspension is very firm being Jap spec). It just feels more solid and composed than the S. Whether this is my driving or the cars I don't know. The S is better at putting power down out of corners though.
Everyone who's been in the DC5 so far thinks it's more comfortable than the S, the seats are definitely better, I love them. It's more eye-catching too, probably because of the hoooge spoiler and rarity.
- The DC5 has more power/ torque low down in the rev range, it feels more flexible than the F20C in the S. At the top end though, the S feels like it has the edge. In terms of outright straight-line speed there's very little in it.
- The S is much better at getting the power down than the DC5 thanks to being RWD. The DC5 suffers from torque steer when being driven hard, the S is more refined in that respect. There is more feel to the steering in the DC5 though, it's heavy and feels like you're steering a go kart.
- Handling. I think I can take corners faster in the DC5, it has so much grip (provided the surface is smooth as it doesn't like bumps at all, the suspension is very firm being Jap spec). It just feels more solid and composed than the S. Whether this is my driving or the cars I don't know. The S is better at putting power down out of corners though.
Everyone who's been in the DC5 so far thinks it's more comfortable than the S, the seats are definitely better, I love them. It's more eye-catching too, probably because of the hoooge spoiler and rarity.
Basically, I think DC5 to S2000 would be a very good move if you can afford to lose the back seats and extra comforts. It's a bit faster, has a much nicer feel to it being RWD and you have the benefit of convertible motoring. It will feel very different at first, but once you get used to it you will love the slingshot effect on roundabouts
mercurius said:
Having owned and tracked an S2000 (amongst other more exotic machinery) I can vouch it is one of the most neutral, stable cars I have ever taken to my limits...
You haven't driven a lot then. Or you haven't driven the S properly on-road.
The S2000, on-track where you've room to recover, is supposed to be VERY good.
On-road, however, it needs more steering feel and more rear-end progression (strut-braces help both apparently...they're my next step) to be truly progressive - certainly not in the same league as the DC2 Integra.
That said, on warm tyres and driven smoothly, it's just fine...you only get caught out if you're not concentrating or if the tyres are cold/road is damp/greasy. Suspension travel is good, B-road compliance is good, turn-in is good-to-excellent depending on geometry and tyres, overall handling is definitely good, and grip levels are exceptional (subject to cold/wet caveat above).
mercurius said:
...it is relatively slow.
Compared to what? Off-VTEC it's not exceptionally quick, granted, but that's what the box is for. And 1st gear is too long.
But for the money it's the quickest roadster around, and straight-line is marginally quicker than DC2 and DC5, (mainly 80+ though).
mercurius said:
For even less money you could also get your hands on another hot Honda, a Civic Type R, the best hatch ever in my opinion...
Not one shared by many...another car with inadequate steering feel, worse than S2000 and DC5. Very good in all other respects though. Neil's comments are close to the mark. You'll learn a lot more about driving in an S2000 than a DC5, but may not have any more fun and may even travel slightly slower (esp. at this time of year). It's also more likely to bite than a fwd car.
That said, I'm looking for a good DC2 (wish I hadn't sold mine!) to complement the S2000. Bit greedy, I know, but you only live once.
Thanks to all for the replies. I am still in two minds about what to do though. Just a few replies to some of the suggestions.
I would not be interested in a DC2, I don't like the look of them although I do accept that they are great car. For me they do not have the desirable looks like the DC5 has. I've heard too many people saying that the DC2's look very dated now. (especially in white)
As for the Euro R Accord, Is it 220bhp or 280bhp? I would be interested but I wonder would it be like a bigger (thus slower) version of what I have. Also it is front wheel drive which I suppose I would like a change from.
I guess what I am looking for is something with rear wheel drive, great handling, looks and rarity like the DC5. That's why I am looking at the S2000 (though I don't think it's as nice looking as the Teg) It has a great engine and gearbox, great handling, has the rarity value (here in Ireland anyway!) looks well, has a nice (if a little cramped) interior and is rear wheel drive. It ticks all the boxes except the practicality box. I guess I wish the Teg was rear wheeled drive. The practicality issue does annoy me but it's not too much of an issue. I have no kids and there is rarely more than 2 in the car.
Also, if you check out Evo's website they do give the DC5 a five star rating. (I know this also was a prototype car they tested) I have also read Evo's mag and also find what they say about the Tegs steering etc a little harsh.
Anyone got any suggestions for something else other than these two. I am also limited by the road tax here in Ireland. Tax for a 2.0l engine here is nearly £400 for a 3.0l engine it is nearly £900. Oh and a brand new Type R Integra is about £30000 sterling and an S2000 is about £40000 sterling. This Government are screwing us over here.
Again thanks for all the replies and suggestions.
I would not be interested in a DC2, I don't like the look of them although I do accept that they are great car. For me they do not have the desirable looks like the DC5 has. I've heard too many people saying that the DC2's look very dated now. (especially in white)
As for the Euro R Accord, Is it 220bhp or 280bhp? I would be interested but I wonder would it be like a bigger (thus slower) version of what I have. Also it is front wheel drive which I suppose I would like a change from.
I guess what I am looking for is something with rear wheel drive, great handling, looks and rarity like the DC5. That's why I am looking at the S2000 (though I don't think it's as nice looking as the Teg) It has a great engine and gearbox, great handling, has the rarity value (here in Ireland anyway!) looks well, has a nice (if a little cramped) interior and is rear wheel drive. It ticks all the boxes except the practicality box. I guess I wish the Teg was rear wheeled drive. The practicality issue does annoy me but it's not too much of an issue. I have no kids and there is rarely more than 2 in the car.
Also, if you check out Evo's website they do give the DC5 a five star rating. (I know this also was a prototype car they tested) I have also read Evo's mag and also find what they say about the Tegs steering etc a little harsh.
Anyone got any suggestions for something else other than these two. I am also limited by the road tax here in Ireland. Tax for a 2.0l engine here is nearly £400 for a 3.0l engine it is nearly £900. Oh and a brand new Type R Integra is about £30000 sterling and an S2000 is about £40000 sterling. This Government are screwing us over here.
Again thanks for all the replies and suggestions.
Aye, but your petrol down there is a damn sight cheaper than us above you. So quit yer complain'!
Seriously though, it sounds like you're in a bit of a quandary.
The Accord Euro R is 220 bhp, not 280. You'd prefer to move from FWD, want power, but with space - I was initially going to say Lexus IS200/300, but it's underpowered but ticks the rest of the boxes.
It's looking like a Beemer, I'm afraid.
Seriously though, it sounds like you're in a bit of a quandary.
The Accord Euro R is 220 bhp, not 280. You'd prefer to move from FWD, want power, but with space - I was initially going to say Lexus IS200/300, but it's underpowered but ticks the rest of the boxes.
It's looking like a Beemer, I'm afraid.
S2000 boot not unreasonable, but it's certainly no hatchback.
Other (2nd hand) options:-
BMW M-coupe (the Z3M breadvan thingy) - love 'em to bits, hold value really well, VANOS is the only big worry. Monster performance.
BMW 330Ci - mundane but ticks all the other boxes. Similar performance to DC5 and S2000
TVR Chimaera/Griff...but very different cars to the DC5 and S2000
968 Sport/Clubsport
Best of luck...
Other (2nd hand) options:-
BMW M-coupe (the Z3M breadvan thingy) - love 'em to bits, hold value really well, VANOS is the only big worry. Monster performance.
BMW 330Ci - mundane but ticks all the other boxes. Similar performance to DC5 and S2000
TVR Chimaera/Griff...but very different cars to the DC5 and S2000
968 Sport/Clubsport
Best of luck...
I've been running a 2002 DC5 for the past 3 years. I have nothing but praise for it. It is a really practical car. There is a huge amount of luggage space, especially with the rear seats down, though the strut brace gets a bit in the way. It drives superbly. The steering is really sharp and the front diff is a big help. On track it is quicker than my other car - a Jap spec WRX. It carries much more speed through the corners and the brakes are in a different class.
On the road 80 mph is 4000 rpm in 6th, so it is not particularly noisy on a motorway cruise. VTEC doesn't kick in until 6000 rpm. Then it howls like a banshee all the way up to just below 9000 rpm. It's quite addictive, but you have to restrain yourself, if you want to keep your license. The suspension is compliant enough to give a comfortable ride on all but the bumpiest of B roads. Economy is fair. I generally get low 30s mpg. On a long run upto 35 mpg. On track 15 mpg, which is better than the 8 mpg for the WRX on track! And it hasn't missed a beat in the 50,000 miles that my wife and I have driven it.
Next spring I'm going the RWD route with a Cayman S, but I am going to keep the DC5 for load carrying. It really isn't that much less entertaining to drive than the Cayman S.
On the road 80 mph is 4000 rpm in 6th, so it is not particularly noisy on a motorway cruise. VTEC doesn't kick in until 6000 rpm. Then it howls like a banshee all the way up to just below 9000 rpm. It's quite addictive, but you have to restrain yourself, if you want to keep your license. The suspension is compliant enough to give a comfortable ride on all but the bumpiest of B roads. Economy is fair. I generally get low 30s mpg. On a long run upto 35 mpg. On track 15 mpg, which is better than the 8 mpg for the WRX on track! And it hasn't missed a beat in the 50,000 miles that my wife and I have driven it.
Next spring I'm going the RWD route with a Cayman S, but I am going to keep the DC5 for load carrying. It really isn't that much less entertaining to drive than the Cayman S.
johnnymac said:
Just another question! How would you compare the Nissan 350Z to the S2000 and the Integra DC5? Is it worth a look? Is there much difference between a Jap import and a UK spec 350Z?
Also do any of you know anything about the S2000 VSG?
Also do any of you know anything about the S2000 VSG?
350Z is bigger and heavier than both, and feels it. Monster engine though - clearly the quickest real-world (and most grip), although once an S has the revs up, they're pretty even in a straight-line.
I didn't get on with the Z - even less steering feedback, less 'balance' to the controls, and a short-travel throttle made it tricky to drive smoothly, IMHO. But lots of people like them and rave about them.
Short answer - Z more of a big-hearted GT, S2000 a manic sports car, DC5 a marginally-refined track-weapon.
Oh...and I think you mean VSA - Honda's version of traction control. It's not a 'classic' traction control, in that it does allow some slip before intervening. Probably closest in operation to something like Ferrari's 'sport' mode on the manettino, but without any other options other than 'off'.
(NB: It was made possible by Honda's switch to electronic throttle control rather than a throttle cable, which pre-'06 S2000s had. I've no idea if that's affected the engine response or not (which in VTEC engines is typically very good).)
My friend Havoc.
It appears you have taken the time to present your views by contradicting everything I have said and feel obliged to respond.
RE "I have not driven a lot" cars I have owned and tracked include an M3 a Tuscan and a 911...compared to those, the S2000 is stable and secure at MY limit, believe me.
RE "Compared to what is the S2000 relatively slow" see above...in case you are thinking that the cars above are in a different money league, an M3 E36 can be had for under 10K.
RE "The Type R not being the best Hot Hatch" this is a view shared by most motoring journalists as well as track day enthusiasts. Its lap times also are topping those of other hatches in diverse tracks such as Bedford and Oulton.
I think you should refrain from taking such antagonistic positions until your previously owned fast cars include more than a Civic and an Integra and you have a track day and sprint experience of 10 years+.
At that point I will gladly take your points under consideration.
mercurius.
It appears you have taken the time to present your views by contradicting everything I have said and feel obliged to respond.
RE "I have not driven a lot" cars I have owned and tracked include an M3 a Tuscan and a 911...compared to those, the S2000 is stable and secure at MY limit, believe me.
RE "Compared to what is the S2000 relatively slow" see above...in case you are thinking that the cars above are in a different money league, an M3 E36 can be had for under 10K.
RE "The Type R not being the best Hot Hatch" this is a view shared by most motoring journalists as well as track day enthusiasts. Its lap times also are topping those of other hatches in diverse tracks such as Bedford and Oulton.
I think you should refrain from taking such antagonistic positions until your previously owned fast cars include more than a Civic and an Integra and you have a track day and sprint experience of 10 years+.
At that point I will gladly take your points under consideration.
mercurius.
Edited by mercurius on Thursday 16th November 10:33
Mercurius,
While we're comparing the length of our metaphoric dicks:-
I've driven E43 M3's (inc on-track), S4, S-Type R, VX220, 968 Sport, Caterham Roadsports and a whole raft of FWD cars. So, track-work aside (which IMHO is largely irrelevant to discussing road-car manners), I would suggest my experience isn't that far short of yours. So I think my 'antagonistic position' has enough basis in fact and experience to justify my comments. That the S2000 is probably more benign than a Tuscan and a 911 I don't think will come as a surprise to many people, but it certainly isn't relevant here. It's like saying that the neighbour's rottweiler isn't as dangerous as that lion we saw at the zoo!
Re: S2000 'slow' - comparing 2nd hand prices is pointless - I could go and get an Evo VI for 10k which would blow an E36 M3 into the weeds. Or a Caterfield which would waste an M3 on-track. But that's irrelevant, as they're different types of car, different ages, running costs, condition etc... The S2000, against it's direct competition (sub-£30k sports cars), is performance-wise bang on the money. If you want more pace in a soft-top with similar handling and similar running costs (E36 M3 cabrio short in both categories), you'll struggle..., Z4 3.0, Elise 111R and VX Turbo are the only ones that spring to mind, and the first two haven't THAT much extra performance.
Re: on-limit. Frankly, track-work is irrelevant, as on-track you have a lot more room to recover and much lower consequences if you can't recover. And I said it was supposed to be very good on-track.
And your limit is not necessarily the car's limit. I make a point of trying to find the limits of the cars I drive when and where I have space to experiment without anyone else to get hurt and without anything immediate to bend the car if I get it wrong. And with standard geometry (even with revised geo) the S2000's tail breaks away quite quickly without masses of notice - you can catch it, but it can be untidy. Plus the front doesn't give enough warning about conditions there either - it's not a confidence-inspiring car. By contrast, there are 3 (very different) cars that I jumped into and felt an instant connection with:- ITR, VX220, and Caterham Roadsport. Those three, I would suggest, define benign-yet-involving handling. Each is beatifully throttle-steerable to the n'th degree.
As for the CTR...compared to Clio 182 Cup and ST170 (both of which I've driven hard), it has worse damping and appaling steering feel. Plus poor wet-weather control on stock tyres (as does the S2000...easily fixed on both though). It has a better powertrain and better build quality, plus a good driving position. But to my mind a hot-hatch should be confidence-inspiring, fully keyed-in to the road at speed, and a hoot to chuck around at the limit...I'd describe the DC2 as having the characteristics of the ultimate hot-hatch. The EP3, by comparison, DOES fall short - it's good, but not great. And you may have noticed that evo missed it out of their 'best fwd car' competition...
While we're comparing the length of our metaphoric dicks:-
I've driven E43 M3's (inc on-track), S4, S-Type R, VX220, 968 Sport, Caterham Roadsports and a whole raft of FWD cars. So, track-work aside (which IMHO is largely irrelevant to discussing road-car manners), I would suggest my experience isn't that far short of yours. So I think my 'antagonistic position' has enough basis in fact and experience to justify my comments. That the S2000 is probably more benign than a Tuscan and a 911 I don't think will come as a surprise to many people, but it certainly isn't relevant here. It's like saying that the neighbour's rottweiler isn't as dangerous as that lion we saw at the zoo!
Re: S2000 'slow' - comparing 2nd hand prices is pointless - I could go and get an Evo VI for 10k which would blow an E36 M3 into the weeds. Or a Caterfield which would waste an M3 on-track. But that's irrelevant, as they're different types of car, different ages, running costs, condition etc... The S2000, against it's direct competition (sub-£30k sports cars), is performance-wise bang on the money. If you want more pace in a soft-top with similar handling and similar running costs (E36 M3 cabrio short in both categories), you'll struggle..., Z4 3.0, Elise 111R and VX Turbo are the only ones that spring to mind, and the first two haven't THAT much extra performance.
Re: on-limit. Frankly, track-work is irrelevant, as on-track you have a lot more room to recover and much lower consequences if you can't recover. And I said it was supposed to be very good on-track.
And your limit is not necessarily the car's limit. I make a point of trying to find the limits of the cars I drive when and where I have space to experiment without anyone else to get hurt and without anything immediate to bend the car if I get it wrong. And with standard geometry (even with revised geo) the S2000's tail breaks away quite quickly without masses of notice - you can catch it, but it can be untidy. Plus the front doesn't give enough warning about conditions there either - it's not a confidence-inspiring car. By contrast, there are 3 (very different) cars that I jumped into and felt an instant connection with:- ITR, VX220, and Caterham Roadsport. Those three, I would suggest, define benign-yet-involving handling. Each is beatifully throttle-steerable to the n'th degree.
As for the CTR...compared to Clio 182 Cup and ST170 (both of which I've driven hard), it has worse damping and appaling steering feel. Plus poor wet-weather control on stock tyres (as does the S2000...easily fixed on both though). It has a better powertrain and better build quality, plus a good driving position. But to my mind a hot-hatch should be confidence-inspiring, fully keyed-in to the road at speed, and a hoot to chuck around at the limit...I'd describe the DC2 as having the characteristics of the ultimate hot-hatch. The EP3, by comparison, DOES fall short - it's good, but not great. And you may have noticed that evo missed it out of their 'best fwd car' competition...
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