A little advice please for EP3 CTR
Discussion
Hi all,
Im looking at making a few minor mods to my CTR. I am planning on: front ARB, a DC sports manifold, keeping the original back box, engine mounts and an air intake system.
The advice comes in with the air intake system, my mate who has recommended all these mods having previously owned a CTR and now an ITR has suggested a Gruppe M air intake but I am put off slightly by the £800 price tag.
So the advice......is there anywhere that I could get my hands on a reliable albeit cheaper Gruppe M or are there any other intake systems that would give the same results without making my wallet significantly lighter
Thanks in advance for any replies
Im looking at making a few minor mods to my CTR. I am planning on: front ARB, a DC sports manifold, keeping the original back box, engine mounts and an air intake system.
The advice comes in with the air intake system, my mate who has recommended all these mods having previously owned a CTR and now an ITR has suggested a Gruppe M air intake but I am put off slightly by the £800 price tag.
So the advice......is there anywhere that I could get my hands on a reliable albeit cheaper Gruppe M or are there any other intake systems that would give the same results without making my wallet significantly lighter
Thanks in advance for any replies
Tegiwa make a copy, very easy to get a hold of, identical to the Gruppe M except you have to cut your own scuttle panel, whereas the GM comes with a pre-cut (but poor-fitting) panel.
If you are going for a sports manifold you will need your ECU chipped to enable a remap, or you will run lean on full throttle which will damage your engine in the long run. Save the manifold until you can afford the Hondata ECU chip (£500 or there abouts) and then a remap (another few hundred quid) because you will want the car mapped the manifold as quickly as possible.
Intake and exhaust mods are fine, if you are keeping the standard backbox I'd recommend an unsilenced B pipe - thats where the restriction is, remove it and the standard backbox is good up to 250bhp according to the CTR owners forum. I have the standard backbox with an unsilenced pipe at the moment, it sounds great but it just doesn't have the volume for my hooligan tastes!
If you are going for a sports manifold you will need your ECU chipped to enable a remap, or you will run lean on full throttle which will damage your engine in the long run. Save the manifold until you can afford the Hondata ECU chip (£500 or there abouts) and then a remap (another few hundred quid) because you will want the car mapped the manifold as quickly as possible.
Intake and exhaust mods are fine, if you are keeping the standard backbox I'd recommend an unsilenced B pipe - thats where the restriction is, remove it and the standard backbox is good up to 250bhp according to the CTR owners forum. I have the standard backbox with an unsilenced pipe at the moment, it sounds great but it just doesn't have the volume for my hooligan tastes!
Edited by Mastodon2 on Monday 23 January 16:36
bdgriffiths said:
Mastodon2 said:
Tegiwa make a copy, very easy to get a hold of, identical to the Gruppe M except you have to cut your own scuttle panel, whereas the GM comes with a pre-cut (but poor-fitting) panel.
Is this an easy task as i am not mechanically minded in the slightest!?!?!I got a fast road setup by www.abpmotorsport.co.uk
That gave the CTR a bit more feedback and a more planted/secure feel when pushing on. I'd recommend that as a great cheap mod!
10 Pence Short said:
I'd find a Mugen intake system. It's light and does exactly what it should. Very easy to fit.
As for the front ARB- I woudn't bother. Stiffening up the front won't help the car at all- especially traction from low speed.
The Mugen is massively overpriced aswell though to be honest. I'd go for the Tegiwa gruppe m style one mentioned above. If they're good enough for TDI North to sell they can't be bad. As for the front ARB- I woudn't bother. Stiffening up the front won't help the car at all- especially traction from low speed.
Agreed - front ARB isn't a great choice, and it's INCREDIBLY difficult to improve on Hondas intake designs. They've always been extremely underated in that regard. Save induction kits, even £800 ones, for the Vauxhall crowd. Get the car set up properly, perhaps a chip/map if you fancy a little more power but I think setup and handling will make the biggest difference on these cars...tyres?
Mastodon2 said:
I certainly would not get the Mugen airbox, it's not that different to the standard box in terms of design and it's not even carbonfibre, it's fibreglass. Over-priced tat at it's finest!
What? Have you taken the two things apart?The Mugen used a panel filter, the OEM a cylindrical one. The Mugen one is GRP (and very light), totally empty whereas the OEM one is very heavy and has much smaller chambers. The OEM has a turned down feeder pipe, the Mugen one a straight nozzle to take air directly into the box.
The only thing that's similar in design of the two is that they fit in the same space.
10 Pence Short said:
As for the front ARB- I woudn't bother. Stiffening up the front won't help the car at all- especially traction from low speed.
The front ARB will definitely need changing to JDM spec if he wants a DC sports manifold, as they are a different shape to the UK spec ARB. They are the same thickness so no different apart from the shape.The rear JDM ARB is worth installing too, it's is a few mm thicker and does improve handling.
As for the Mugen intake, it looks pretty but actual gains in HP are non-existant. GruppeM is easily the best for gains but the AEM one that sits in the wheelarch (and sucks in water) gives good gains too.
itsnotarace said:
As for the Mugen intake, it looks pretty but actual gains in HP are non-existant. GruppeM is easily the best for gains but the AEM one that sits in the wheelarch (and sucks in water) gives good gains too.
It doesn't look pretty at all. It looks like a plain black box.What it does do is improve airflow between 20%-30% over the standard system and maintain good temperature/flow performance when put through differing conditions and heat scenarios. You also have to consider that it's not designed to just with a peak power scenario, but also throughout the rev range and characteristics you're looking for. It's worth pointing out that GruppeM themselves advertise some of their intake systems as being the same or even lower than standard peak BHP compared to OEM ones.
With regards the Mugen, it's the kind of item that doesn't necessarily sound, or look bling when you're hanging around in a car park full of 18 year olds with your bonnet up, or give a pocketful of questionable BHP gains on a rolling road. What it does do is perform when you need it to.
itsnotarace said:
By the "pretty" bit I was referring to the £300 Mugen grill that you also need to fit.
This has been discussed to death on CTRO so there is no point regurgitating it all on here. The bottom line is that all the top NA EP3's run GruppeM, and none of them run Mugen.
Yeah, CTRO is obviously the font of all knowledge. It tried to be when I was on there as a mod and probably still tries today.This has been discussed to death on CTRO so there is no point regurgitating it all on here. The bottom line is that all the top NA EP3's run GruppeM, and none of them run Mugen.
You don't need the grill, it's a styling piece with minimal performance benefit.
Yeah, GruppeM stuff is usually pretty good, so is Mugen. Don't try and direct people using second hand misinformation from a website full of noddies would be a good idea, though.
10 Pence Short said:
It tried to be when I was on there as a mod
Relevance to conversation? I was too many years ago under a different username10 Pence Short said:
You don't need the grill, it's a styling piece with minimal performance benefit.
It was designed as a ram air scoop like the GruppeM so it was crap without it.10 Pence Short said:
Don't try and direct people using second hand misinformation from a website full of noddies would be a good idea, though.
Well I've owned a GruppeM since 2004 and my EP3 made 200 whp NA so I think that qualifies me 
Post some dyno charts or 1/4 mile results with the Mugen if you can actually find any?'Ram' effect doesn't come into play until you're well over 3 figure speeds. If you really believe taking air from the windscreen scuttle and asking it to go around corners is conducive to 'ram' effect, go for it. More important is a solution that works with the strengths of the engine and maintains flow and temperature in a consistent way through a variety of conditions.
I don't remember the last time I went for a drive or watched a car win a race on a dyno, either. The clue is that a dyno readout doesn't tell the full story.
As has already been stated, GruppeM themselves have made systems for models where they don't claim any improvement on static BHP. They, like others, understand it's not purely about seeing some figures on a dyno.
The GruppeM kit is good, so it the Mugen.
Most importantly, on its own, you're talking about something that's delivering a miniscule and insignificant increase in power. It's far less than the difference in taking your weekly shopping out of the boot or refusing to carry a passenger.
I don't remember the last time I went for a drive or watched a car win a race on a dyno, either. The clue is that a dyno readout doesn't tell the full story.
As has already been stated, GruppeM themselves have made systems for models where they don't claim any improvement on static BHP. They, like others, understand it's not purely about seeing some figures on a dyno.
The GruppeM kit is good, so it the Mugen.
Most importantly, on its own, you're talking about something that's delivering a miniscule and insignificant increase in power. It's far less than the difference in taking your weekly shopping out of the boot or refusing to carry a passenger.
itsnotarace said:
The front ARB will definitely need changing to JDM spec if he wants a DC sports manifold, as they are a different shape to the UK spec ARB. They are the same thickness so no different apart from the shape.
The rear JDM ARB is worth installing too, it's is a few mm thicker and does improve handling.
As for the Mugen intake, it looks pretty but actual gains in HP are non-existant. GruppeM is easily the best for gains but the AEM one that sits in the wheelarch (and sucks in water) gives good gains too.
If you're going with a DC Sports manifold then you don't need to change the front ARB, changing the front ARB to JDM one is only required if you're fitting a Jap Manifold (Buddyclub, mugen, Toda etc.)The rear JDM ARB is worth installing too, it's is a few mm thicker and does improve handling.
As for the Mugen intake, it looks pretty but actual gains in HP are non-existant. GruppeM is easily the best for gains but the AEM one that sits in the wheelarch (and sucks in water) gives good gains too.
You can get a progress front ARB if you want it thicker, it's not usually done as it makes it too stiff at the front - the rear ARB mind you is well worth the money
You are not going to be making much power without a Kpro and re-tune anyways, so i assume the OP is doing the mods more for the noise increase.
I had a Tegiwa Gruppe M on my DC5 and the noise was excellent. Not cheap, but the best option out there IMO. If you can find a 2nd hand one with a scuttle panel already cut, that would be best.
I had a Tegiwa Gruppe M on my DC5 and the noise was excellent. Not cheap, but the best option out there IMO. If you can find a 2nd hand one with a scuttle panel already cut, that would be best.
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