which vtec? (Teg vs S200 vs Civic)
Discussion
Hi folks,
Hoping everyone had a nice xmas!
I'm considering getting a second car. Quite taken with my best friends S2000 and think that I'm in the market for something VTEC.
There are two slight snags.
Cheers, ace
Hoping everyone had a nice xmas!
I'm considering getting a second car. Quite taken with my best friends S2000 and think that I'm in the market for something VTEC.
There are two slight snags.
- I have 2 kids - therefore seriously considering Breadvan or DC5 as although I love it, I think that I might not get enough use out of the S2000
- I'm not sure about the image of the DC5 - blue and black ones seem a little more subdued - but I think that they still look a little "fast and the furious", whereas the S2000 is, I think, quite understated.
- is the gear change as 'tight' and riflebolt-like in the civic and the teg as it is in the S2? - aside from the engine I think its one of the main attractions of the car
- has anyone (who still looks at this forum) traded up to a 911 from an S2? - I am considering one of these, although I might have to wait a few years to save up
Cheers, ace
I think first of all, you need to decide whether you want a hatchback or a 2 seater sports car. The pros and cons of which have been discussed many times, so it's not worth going into in too much detail?
Will you ever need to carry more than one passenger? How much luggage space do you really need? Will the car be a daily driver or a weekend car? Do you really need to be able to take the roof off?
And yes, from what I gather the gearboxes are fairly similar between all these cars, and all will give you that slick active, super-positive engagement and short throw you have likely experience in the S2000.
Will you ever need to carry more than one passenger? How much luggage space do you really need? Will the car be a daily driver or a weekend car? Do you really need to be able to take the roof off?
And yes, from what I gather the gearboxes are fairly similar between all these cars, and all will give you that slick active, super-positive engagement and short throw you have likely experience in the S2000.
Mastodon2 said:
I think first of all, you need to decide whether you want a hatchback or a 2 seater sports car. The pros and cons of which have been discussed many times, so it's not worth going into in too much detail?
Will you ever need to carry more than one passenger? How much luggage space do you really need? Will the car be a daily driver or a weekend car? Do you really need to be able to take the roof off?
And yes, from what I gather the gearboxes are fairly similar between all these cars, and all will give you that slick active, super-positive engagement and short throw you have likely experience in the S2000.
I think that if I had no other variables I would by the s2 - it's a second car and we have an audi estate as well - so my man maths tells me that if we need to go somewhere we have enough seats "in aggregate" Will you ever need to carry more than one passenger? How much luggage space do you really need? Will the car be a daily driver or a weekend car? Do you really need to be able to take the roof off?
And yes, from what I gather the gearboxes are fairly similar between all these cars, and all will give you that slick active, super-positive engagement and short throw you have likely experience in the S2000.
- therefore on the passenger question, I think I'd get away with it, as if I ever needed to take both kids somewhere, I can take the audi, and mrs phatmanace can have the S2!phatmanace said:
I think that if I had no other variables I would by the s2 - it's a second car and we have an audi estate as well - so my man maths tells me that if we need to go somewhere we have enough seats "in aggregate" - therefore on the passenger question, I think I'd get away with it, as if I ever needed to take both kids somewhere, I can take the audi, and mrs phatmanace can have the S2!
I think the PH majority would tell you to get the S2000 then, purely because it's a RWD 2 seater. Personally, if I could have any of the Type R range it would be an EK9 Civic Type R, followed by a DC2, then a DC5, then the EP3, the one I actually own! I went for the EP3 because they are reasonably priced to buy the cheapest of the bunch to insure. In reality, there is not a huge difference between them, they are all built with the Type R DNA, high revving, sharp handling cars for the discerning buyer - therefore on the passenger question, I think I'd get away with it, as if I ever needed to take both kids somewhere, I can take the audi, and mrs phatmanace can have the S2!
The S2000 is a bit of a different kettle of fish, less of a modifying scene but that will probably not bother you. If you could only have one car, I would have said to go for a DC5 or an EP3 for pure usability depending on how much you wanted to spend. I would not want to have to commute on 6am icey mornings in an S2000 if it could be avoided!
I think if I'd been willing to increase my budget a little bit, I probably would have gone for a DC5, even if the S2000 was comparble to buy and insure, I just like the Integra more. Looking back though, I got the EP3 because it was available (always lots on sale since they sold like hot cakes) and cheaper to buy and insure. In a couple of years time I would consider upgrading to a DC5, but for now I'm very, very happy.
The cars Honda made in this time are landmarks in a golden era for the compay, you won't be disappointed whatever you choose.
Mastodon2 said:
I think the PH majority would tell you to get the S2000 then, purely because it's a RWD 2 seater. Personally, if I could have any of the Type R range it would be an EK9 Civic Type R, followed by a DC2, then a DC5, then the EP3, the one I actually own! I went for the EP3 because they are reasonably priced to buy the cheapest of the bunch to insure. In reality, there is not a huge difference between them, they are all built with the Type R DNA, high revving, sharp handling cars for the discerning buyer
The S2000 is a bit of a different kettle of fish, less of a modifying scene but that will probably not bother you. If you could only have one car, I would have said to go for a DC5 or an EP3 for pure usability depending on how much you wanted to spend. I would not want to have to commute on 6am icey mornings in an S2000 if it could be avoided!
I think if I'd been willing to increase my budget a little bit, I probably would have gone for a DC5, even if the S2000 was comparble to buy and insure, I just like the Integra more. Looking back though, I got the EP3 because it was available (always lots on sale since they sold like hot cakes) and cheaper to buy and insure. In a couple of years time I would consider upgrading to a DC5, but for now I'm very, very happy.
The cars Honda made in this time are landmarks in a golden era for the compay, you won't be disappointed whatever you choose.
Great Reply - cheers man. I think that I might have to go and test drive an DC5 and see what I think. Have a great New Year. The S2000 is a bit of a different kettle of fish, less of a modifying scene but that will probably not bother you. If you could only have one car, I would have said to go for a DC5 or an EP3 for pure usability depending on how much you wanted to spend. I would not want to have to commute on 6am icey mornings in an S2000 if it could be avoided!
I think if I'd been willing to increase my budget a little bit, I probably would have gone for a DC5, even if the S2000 was comparble to buy and insure, I just like the Integra more. Looking back though, I got the EP3 because it was available (always lots on sale since they sold like hot cakes) and cheaper to buy and insure. In a couple of years time I would consider upgrading to a DC5, but for now I'm very, very happy.
The cars Honda made in this time are landmarks in a golden era for the compay, you won't be disappointed whatever you choose.
I had an EP3 for 4 years and then I had an S2000 for 4 years. Both brilliant cars but the S2000 felt a significant step up in quality (which it would do) seeing as they were £29k new and the EP3 was £16k. Performance wise the s2 is fractionally quicker on paper but to me it actually FEELS quicker in the real world perhaps because your lower to the ground and it's slightly louder hearing engine through the fabric roof.
I never had a problem with either (apart from the alarm on the ep3 which Honda sorted under warranty).
I would opt for an S2000 if your not bothered about extra seats
I never had a problem with either (apart from the alarm on the ep3 which Honda sorted under warranty).
I would opt for an S2000 if your not bothered about extra seats
ATR the best practical Type R if you've got kids and need 4 doors Also has lovely weighted hydraulic assist power steering and LSD.
DC5 Teg is quicker though (but looks a bit boy racer and over priced when you consider how cheap the EP3s are going for now). UK EP3 doesn't have LSD and isn't as quick round a track but I wouldn't let that influence you unless you are going to do a lot of track days (EP3 goes well enough on track anyway and fun with lift off oversteer).
S2000 if you can live with 2 seats as others say is the best by some margin. Offers unique experience compared to the type R's being rwd and a more rewarding drive with the twitchy handling etc. You have to respect it though and will come unstuck if you want to thrash about all weathers like you are driving fwd hot hatch. The engine and gearbox however are sublime. The engine in particular feels so much more special revving higher than the other type Rs and sounding better with the top down (awesome with a long ram intake).
EK9 a bit old school now and way overpriced for what it is when you compare it to the other type Rs available for a fraction of the price.
Whichever way you go, they are all bullet proof if well maintained.
Also has lovely weighted hydraulic assist power steering and LSD.DC5 Teg is quicker though (but looks a bit boy racer and over priced when you consider how cheap the EP3s are going for now). UK EP3 doesn't have LSD and isn't as quick round a track but I wouldn't let that influence you unless you are going to do a lot of track days (EP3 goes well enough on track anyway and fun with lift off oversteer).
S2000 if you can live with 2 seats as others say is the best by some margin. Offers unique experience compared to the type R's being rwd and a more rewarding drive with the twitchy handling etc. You have to respect it though and will come unstuck if you want to thrash about all weathers like you are driving fwd hot hatch. The engine and gearbox however are sublime. The engine in particular feels so much more special revving higher than the other type Rs and sounding better with the top down (awesome with a long ram intake).
EK9 a bit old school now and way overpriced for what it is when you compare it to the other type Rs available for a fraction of the price.
Whichever way you go, they are all bullet proof if well maintained.
I've owned two DC2s (still got one, alongside the NSX, which tells you how high I rate them), and an S2000. Driven 3x EP3s and 2x DC5s. NOT driven an EK9, sadly, but have chatted to guys that have.
S2000 has the best gearchange of ANY road car, bar none. The Civic/teg gearchanges are less 'mechanical' and feel slightly smoother as a result, but the throw is slightly longer and most of them will now have a slight 'looseness' as the linkage bushes have worn. Only a mm or 2mm 'wiggle' on a decent car though - any more than that and the car's probably been driven quite roughly.
Engine - DC2 has the best sound as standard and (joint with the S2000) the best throttle response. S2000 lump is just manic and hilarious - top-end is genuinely quick. It also has a reasonable mid-range - DC2 can feel a little thin when in give-and-take traffic. EP3 always felt disappointing...like they'd managed to lose the extra 200cc over the DC2 and also took away the VTEC "kick" that you get in the older cars (S2000 included) and some of that top-end punch. DC5 feels better and sounds a little better (not sure why).
Handling.
- You MUST get a car with a diff, it makes such a difference (UK EP3 is the only one without, although a few people have retro-fitted them).
- DC5 is the best track-weapon - stiffest, dartiest, most planted. But doesn't like bumpy B-roads on the stock suspension - gets diverted by camber and bumps/potholes, where the DC2 and the S2000 don't.
- S2000 at 8/10ths is great fun, but at 10/10ths it all gets a little untidy - rear dampers don't feel quite in-tune with the springs over broken tarmac, and the 'grip/slip' transition is sharper than in the front-drivers. Catchable with the right geo, but it's a car you need to actively drive in the wet. Feels "more rwd" than almost any other rwd car I've driven - it just DOESN'T understeer, and you can feel the rear tyres taking on load - very cool.
- DC2 has one of the most fun-yet-docile chassis around. The tail is mobile enough to be fun without being all French and worrying, the diff means that if it's understeering in the dry you've been far too optimistic, and the steady-state balance feels ever-so-slightly rear-led, which is a lovely feeling. You know exactly where you are and how much grip you've got to play with.
Feedback - DC2 wins, without question. S2000 probably edges 2nd from the DC5, mainly because the DC5 PAS feels artificially-heavy - both give you more messages through the seat/pedals.
Interior - DC2 loses, without question. Lovely recaros (same in DC5), and great driving position (same in DC5 and better in S2000 if you're not too tall), but beyond that the DC2 DOES look/feel dated.
Practicality - DC2 and 5 are genuine 4-seaters - rear seats will take a 5'6" adult reasonably happily, and the boots are huge - same sort of size as the Civic or a VW Golf. S2000 is...well, it's a 2-seat roadster, isn't it???
My 2p? If the missus will be driving it much, she'll prefer you to get the S2000 (and then you won't get a look in), albeit she'll need to learn how to drive it in the wet, as they can bite (not as bad as their rep, unless you try and drive it like a fwd car!). But you'll never be disappointed.
I'd ditch the EP3 idea - it's a 2nd car, come on!!!
Between the 'tegs...it's personal preference. The 5 is a slightly easier (albeit stiffer) drive and looks/feels a lot more modern. The 2 feels beautifully analogue by comparison, and is always fun to drive.
S2000 has the best gearchange of ANY road car, bar none. The Civic/teg gearchanges are less 'mechanical' and feel slightly smoother as a result, but the throw is slightly longer and most of them will now have a slight 'looseness' as the linkage bushes have worn. Only a mm or 2mm 'wiggle' on a decent car though - any more than that and the car's probably been driven quite roughly.
Engine - DC2 has the best sound as standard and (joint with the S2000) the best throttle response. S2000 lump is just manic and hilarious - top-end is genuinely quick. It also has a reasonable mid-range - DC2 can feel a little thin when in give-and-take traffic. EP3 always felt disappointing...like they'd managed to lose the extra 200cc over the DC2 and also took away the VTEC "kick" that you get in the older cars (S2000 included) and some of that top-end punch. DC5 feels better and sounds a little better (not sure why).
Handling.
- You MUST get a car with a diff, it makes such a difference (UK EP3 is the only one without, although a few people have retro-fitted them).
- DC5 is the best track-weapon - stiffest, dartiest, most planted. But doesn't like bumpy B-roads on the stock suspension - gets diverted by camber and bumps/potholes, where the DC2 and the S2000 don't.
- S2000 at 8/10ths is great fun, but at 10/10ths it all gets a little untidy - rear dampers don't feel quite in-tune with the springs over broken tarmac, and the 'grip/slip' transition is sharper than in the front-drivers. Catchable with the right geo, but it's a car you need to actively drive in the wet. Feels "more rwd" than almost any other rwd car I've driven - it just DOESN'T understeer, and you can feel the rear tyres taking on load - very cool.
- DC2 has one of the most fun-yet-docile chassis around. The tail is mobile enough to be fun without being all French and worrying, the diff means that if it's understeering in the dry you've been far too optimistic, and the steady-state balance feels ever-so-slightly rear-led, which is a lovely feeling. You know exactly where you are and how much grip you've got to play with.
Feedback - DC2 wins, without question. S2000 probably edges 2nd from the DC5, mainly because the DC5 PAS feels artificially-heavy - both give you more messages through the seat/pedals.
Interior - DC2 loses, without question. Lovely recaros (same in DC5), and great driving position (same in DC5 and better in S2000 if you're not too tall), but beyond that the DC2 DOES look/feel dated.
Practicality - DC2 and 5 are genuine 4-seaters - rear seats will take a 5'6" adult reasonably happily, and the boots are huge - same sort of size as the Civic or a VW Golf. S2000 is...well, it's a 2-seat roadster, isn't it???
My 2p? If the missus will be driving it much, she'll prefer you to get the S2000 (and then you won't get a look in), albeit she'll need to learn how to drive it in the wet, as they can bite (not as bad as their rep, unless you try and drive it like a fwd car!). But you'll never be disappointed.
I'd ditch the EP3 idea - it's a 2nd car, come on!!!
Between the 'tegs...it's personal preference. The 5 is a slightly easier (albeit stiffer) drive and looks/feels a lot more modern. The 2 feels beautifully analogue by comparison, and is always fun to drive.
havoc said:
I've owned two DC2s (still got one, alongside the NSX, which tells you how high I rate them), and an S2000. Driven 3x EP3s and 2x DC5s. NOT driven an EK9, sadly, but have chatted to guys that have.
S2000 has the best gearchange of ANY road car, bar none. The Civic/teg gearchanges are less 'mechanical' and feel slightly smoother as a result, but the throw is slightly longer and most of them will now have a slight 'looseness' as the linkage bushes have worn. Only a mm or 2mm 'wiggle' on a decent car though - any more than that and the car's probably been driven quite roughly.
Engine - DC2 has the best sound as standard and (joint with the S2000) the best throttle response. S2000 lump is just manic and hilarious - top-end is genuinely quick. It also has a reasonable mid-range - DC2 can feel a little thin when in give-and-take traffic. EP3 always felt disappointing...like they'd managed to lose the extra 200cc over the DC2 and also took away the VTEC "kick" that you get in the older cars (S2000 included) and some of that top-end punch. DC5 feels better and sounds a little better (not sure why).
Handling.
- You MUST get a car with a diff, it makes such a difference (UK EP3 is the only one without, although a few people have retro-fitted them).
- DC5 is the best track-weapon - stiffest, dartiest, most planted. But doesn't like bumpy B-roads on the stock suspension - gets diverted by camber and bumps/potholes, where the DC2 and the S2000 don't.
- S2000 at 8/10ths is great fun, but at 10/10ths it all gets a little untidy - rear dampers don't feel quite in-tune with the springs over broken tarmac, and the 'grip/slip' transition is sharper than in the front-drivers. Catchable with the right geo, but it's a car you need to actively drive in the wet. Feels "more rwd" than almost any other rwd car I've driven - it just DOESN'T understeer, and you can feel the rear tyres taking on load - very cool.
- DC2 has one of the most fun-yet-docile chassis around. The tail is mobile enough to be fun without being all French and worrying, the diff means that if it's understeering in the dry you've been far too optimistic, and the steady-state balance feels ever-so-slightly rear-led, which is a lovely feeling. You know exactly where you are and how much grip you've got to play with.
Feedback - DC2 wins, without question. S2000 probably edges 2nd from the DC5, mainly because the DC5 PAS feels artificially-heavy - both give you more messages through the seat/pedals.
Interior - DC2 loses, without question. Lovely recaros (same in DC5), and great driving position (same in DC5 and better in S2000 if you're not too tall), but beyond that the DC2 DOES look/feel dated.
Practicality - DC2 and 5 are genuine 4-seaters - rear seats will take a 5'6" adult reasonably happily, and the boots are huge - same sort of size as the Civic or a VW Golf. S2000 is...well, it's a 2-seat roadster, isn't it???
My 2p? If the missus will be driving it much, she'll prefer you to get the S2000 (and then you won't get a look in), albeit she'll need to learn how to drive it in the wet, as they can bite (not as bad as their rep, unless you try and drive it like a fwd car!). But you'll never be disappointed.
I'd ditch the EP3 idea - it's a 2nd car, come on!!!
Between the 'tegs...it's personal preference. The 5 is a slightly easier (albeit stiffer) drive and looks/feels a lot more modern. The 2 feels beautifully analogue by comparison, and is always fun to drive.
wow - thanks for the great review - I think that I'm 50/50 between an s2k and a dc5 - it's just having 2 kids that puts me off the s2, I'm fearful that it just won't get the use. S2000 has the best gearchange of ANY road car, bar none. The Civic/teg gearchanges are less 'mechanical' and feel slightly smoother as a result, but the throw is slightly longer and most of them will now have a slight 'looseness' as the linkage bushes have worn. Only a mm or 2mm 'wiggle' on a decent car though - any more than that and the car's probably been driven quite roughly.
Engine - DC2 has the best sound as standard and (joint with the S2000) the best throttle response. S2000 lump is just manic and hilarious - top-end is genuinely quick. It also has a reasonable mid-range - DC2 can feel a little thin when in give-and-take traffic. EP3 always felt disappointing...like they'd managed to lose the extra 200cc over the DC2 and also took away the VTEC "kick" that you get in the older cars (S2000 included) and some of that top-end punch. DC5 feels better and sounds a little better (not sure why).
Handling.
- You MUST get a car with a diff, it makes such a difference (UK EP3 is the only one without, although a few people have retro-fitted them).
- DC5 is the best track-weapon - stiffest, dartiest, most planted. But doesn't like bumpy B-roads on the stock suspension - gets diverted by camber and bumps/potholes, where the DC2 and the S2000 don't.
- S2000 at 8/10ths is great fun, but at 10/10ths it all gets a little untidy - rear dampers don't feel quite in-tune with the springs over broken tarmac, and the 'grip/slip' transition is sharper than in the front-drivers. Catchable with the right geo, but it's a car you need to actively drive in the wet. Feels "more rwd" than almost any other rwd car I've driven - it just DOESN'T understeer, and you can feel the rear tyres taking on load - very cool.
- DC2 has one of the most fun-yet-docile chassis around. The tail is mobile enough to be fun without being all French and worrying, the diff means that if it's understeering in the dry you've been far too optimistic, and the steady-state balance feels ever-so-slightly rear-led, which is a lovely feeling. You know exactly where you are and how much grip you've got to play with.
Feedback - DC2 wins, without question. S2000 probably edges 2nd from the DC5, mainly because the DC5 PAS feels artificially-heavy - both give you more messages through the seat/pedals.
Interior - DC2 loses, without question. Lovely recaros (same in DC5), and great driving position (same in DC5 and better in S2000 if you're not too tall), but beyond that the DC2 DOES look/feel dated.
Practicality - DC2 and 5 are genuine 4-seaters - rear seats will take a 5'6" adult reasonably happily, and the boots are huge - same sort of size as the Civic or a VW Golf. S2000 is...well, it's a 2-seat roadster, isn't it???
My 2p? If the missus will be driving it much, she'll prefer you to get the S2000 (and then you won't get a look in), albeit she'll need to learn how to drive it in the wet, as they can bite (not as bad as their rep, unless you try and drive it like a fwd car!). But you'll never be disappointed.
I'd ditch the EP3 idea - it's a 2nd car, come on!!!
Between the 'tegs...it's personal preference. The 5 is a slightly easier (albeit stiffer) drive and looks/feels a lot more modern. The 2 feels beautifully analogue by comparison, and is always fun to drive.
nice work on the NSX - really like these, and the only reason its not on the list is that I don't have a garage to keep it in
OK, 'glutinous' then - artificial weight. It's no heavier than the DC2, but feels heavy vs EP3...however it feels like an engineer has confused weight with feel - DC2 has the best FWD steering I've found for feel and feedback, the later Hondas don't come close...
...but then few modern systems do.
...but then few modern systems do.
havoc said:
OK, 'glutinous' then - artificial weight. It's no heavier than the DC2, but feels heavy vs EP3...however it feels like an engineer has confused weight with feel - DC2 has the best FWD steering I've found for feel and feedback, the later Hondas don't come close...
...but then few modern systems do.
I'd agree with that....but then few modern systems do.
On the EP3- don't believe all the negativity spouted about the steering- it's lazy people reading reviews and not knowing much else. The weight and gearing of the steering is absolutely spot on (certainly was on the first gen ones). All that is lacking is the final, lithe bit of detail you take for granted in a car like the Integra. This is only exaggerated by the stiffer front end on the EP3 that makes the whole thing feel more digital regardless of steering system.
fuchsiasteve said:
DC5 Teg is quicker though (but looks a bit boy racer and over priced when you consider how cheap the EP3s are going for now).
The prices reflect availability though. There are less than 1,000 DC5s in the country. Must be thousands of EP3s.The companies that are still importing them are rather ambitious with their pricing, so better off getting one thats been here for a few years.
Gaz. said:
19,000 EP3's vs 1500 Integra Type R's according to howmanyleft.co.uk. I'm assuming that figure covers both the DC2 & DC5.
Indeed it does, and given that the DC2 was available from UK dealers (DC5s are all imports), it would be reasonable to assume that there are significantly more than 500 of those in the country.havoc said:
Not so sure - they sold c.1,500 UKDM DC2s alone, so the JDM DC2s would probably balance out the write-offs.
I would wager that a fair amount have been binned over the years. Last one was made in what? '99? All at least 11 years old now.At a punt, I'd say 60/40 of the Integras left are DC2/DC5
rossub said:
The prices reflect availability though. There are less than 1,000 DC5s in the country. Must be thousands of EP3s.
The companies that are still importing them are rather ambitious with their pricing, so better off getting one thats been here for a few years.
Its interesting, I've always wondered why dc5's were so much more than s2ks - but I guess that explains it The companies that are still importing them are rather ambitious with their pricing, so better off getting one thats been here for a few years.
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