E46 M3 to S2000
Discussion
I'm thinking of changing my E46 M3 for an S2000 and some info on the following would be very helpful:
- S2000 real world mpg, and if it needs to run on super.
- what's the rpm in 6th gear at 70mph
- What's the ride like on B roads and best wheel size for ride/handling
- how heavy are they on consumables (tyres/brakes) if used on track
- is the standard brake setup any good on track
- does a set of golf clubs/rifle fit in the boot
- must have options which improve ownership and help re-sell
- will it feel slow after an M3..?!
I'm not looking at any specific model year but budget around £6-7k and would like xenon headlights.
Any tips appreciated!
- S2000 real world mpg, and if it needs to run on super.
- what's the rpm in 6th gear at 70mph
- What's the ride like on B roads and best wheel size for ride/handling
- how heavy are they on consumables (tyres/brakes) if used on track
- is the standard brake setup any good on track
- does a set of golf clubs/rifle fit in the boot
- must have options which improve ownership and help re-sell
- will it feel slow after an M3..?!
I'm not looking at any specific model year but budget around £6-7k and would like xenon headlights.
Any tips appreciated!
Sidewindow said:
I'm thinking of changing my E46 M3 for an S2000 and some info on the following would be very helpful:
- S2000 real world mpg, and if it needs to run on super.
- what's the rpm in 6th gear at 70mph
- What's the ride like on B roads and best wheel size for ride/handling
- how heavy are they on consumables (tyres/brakes) if used on track
- is the standard brake setup any good on track
- does a set of golf clubs/rifle fit in the boot
- must have options which improve ownership and help re-sell
- will it feel slow after an M3..?!
I'm not looking at any specific model year but budget around £6-7k and would like xenon headlights.
Any tips appreciated!
mpg- 30 mpg is attainable with a mix of driving. probably about 25-28 mpg is realistic. they prefer super but can run on normal unleaded- S2000 real world mpg, and if it needs to run on super.
- what's the rpm in 6th gear at 70mph
- What's the ride like on B roads and best wheel size for ride/handling
- how heavy are they on consumables (tyres/brakes) if used on track
- is the standard brake setup any good on track
- does a set of golf clubs/rifle fit in the boot
- must have options which improve ownership and help re-sell
- will it feel slow after an M3..?!
I'm not looking at any specific model year but budget around £6-7k and would like xenon headlights.
Any tips appreciated!
ride is very good, not crashy but still firm enough. quite compliant
about 3k rpm at 70. they are a bit buzzy on the motorway
standard brakes are good and can handle track work. upgrade the pads if you want a bit more stopping power/ less fade
consumables nothing out of the ordinary although geometry/ alignment is a must and if you go for a track set up it may eat tyres.
make sure the castor bolts are not seized or you will not be able to adjust the geo. pig of a job if they are and £1k to sort
options; not many. either roadster or GT (hard top)
all cars have xenons as standard
very different car to an M3. it will feel like a cheaper car. interior and dash is a bit atari.
power delivery is decent but you have to rev the nuts of it; vtec from 5800rpm to 9000rpm
engine lacks torque and you'll need to stir the 'box to keep it on song
try to get a facelift car, 04 0nwards. different bumpers, slightly better interior, 17" wheels as opposed to 16" and a few other very minor tweeks
I have an S2000, and my father an M3, both enjoy cars so we swap about a bit...
My bolds...
) etc. It should be cheaper to run and more reliable (although insurance may well be more expensive). But the M3 is a more expensive car and feels it, it is faster, has stability control, better interior, stereo etc.
When I have the option of taking either car I would take the S2000 since I enjoy it more, I like its rawer nature, its more fun but the M3 is more capable in more situations so it depends on what you want and the type of driving you do. The M3 really is the natural car to progress to from the S2000 so i'm not sure if the S2000 can win this debate. If it were me I would pick the Honda but I think for 90% the M3 is the better choice.
My bolds...
Sidewindow said:
I'm thinking of changing my E46 M3 for an S2000 and some info on the following would be very helpful:
- S2000 real world mpg, and if it needs to run on super. I get about 26mpg but my commute is full of roundabouts and endless traffic lights so you may do better. I would I get around 5mpg more than in the M3. It does need super unleaded as stated in its owners manual.
- what's the rpm in 6th gear at 70mph ~3900rpm@70mph
- What's the ride like on B roads and best wheel size for ride/handling The opinion seems to be that 17's may be slightly better for handling (although I don't know why, probably due to better tyre choice at the same price point) and also tyres are cheaper in this size. I have 16's which seem fine but you must do a bit of reading about rear tyre size since the tyre that came as standard had an oversize tread(no longer made). You will want to use 245/45/16 on the rear rather than the standard size to replicate the intended width. Although its a matter of opinion I think the best tyre is considered to be Bridgstone S02's. As said above check the Geo and bolts.
- how heavy are they on consumables (tyres/brakes) if used on track? Don't know, but would be better than the heavier and more powerful M3
- is the standard brake setup any good on track At least as good as any mainstream car probably better than most infact. It came very highly with respect to brakes in the JD power surveys (won most years I think) but for lots of track work you may as well replace as with any road car. I would expect the brakes to be a match for the M3 on track since I here the M3's over heat, but I haven't tried personally yet.
- does a set of golf clubs/rifle fit in the boot Probably not, opening is 40", and longest dimension inside boot is 54"
- must have options which improve ownership and help re-sell Few options available, satnav on imports only and you could have speakers in the head rest, but the stereo is no match for the H/K in the M3
- will it feel slow after an M3..?! Yes, is has 100 bhp less and little torque below Vtec. It is more fun to drive and the steering is better than that on the M3, also the gear change is no comparison the S2000 has the best manual change possibly on any car. But the M3 is much faster and more refined
I'm not looking at any specific model year but budget around £6-7k and would like xenon headlights. Think they all had those. You will probably want to get a '02 then with the glass rear screen, earlier ones had plastic, the later ones ie. '04 face-lift will be out of budget
Any tips appreciated!
Overall the S2000 is more fun to drive, has better controls, gear change, you can heal and toe easily, and I love its speedo - really miss it when I drive other cars (except my kit car which also has one - S2000 real world mpg, and if it needs to run on super. I get about 26mpg but my commute is full of roundabouts and endless traffic lights so you may do better. I would I get around 5mpg more than in the M3. It does need super unleaded as stated in its owners manual.
- what's the rpm in 6th gear at 70mph ~3900rpm@70mph
- What's the ride like on B roads and best wheel size for ride/handling The opinion seems to be that 17's may be slightly better for handling (although I don't know why, probably due to better tyre choice at the same price point) and also tyres are cheaper in this size. I have 16's which seem fine but you must do a bit of reading about rear tyre size since the tyre that came as standard had an oversize tread(no longer made). You will want to use 245/45/16 on the rear rather than the standard size to replicate the intended width. Although its a matter of opinion I think the best tyre is considered to be Bridgstone S02's. As said above check the Geo and bolts.
- how heavy are they on consumables (tyres/brakes) if used on track? Don't know, but would be better than the heavier and more powerful M3
- is the standard brake setup any good on track At least as good as any mainstream car probably better than most infact. It came very highly with respect to brakes in the JD power surveys (won most years I think) but for lots of track work you may as well replace as with any road car. I would expect the brakes to be a match for the M3 on track since I here the M3's over heat, but I haven't tried personally yet.
- does a set of golf clubs/rifle fit in the boot Probably not, opening is 40", and longest dimension inside boot is 54"
- must have options which improve ownership and help re-sell Few options available, satnav on imports only and you could have speakers in the head rest, but the stereo is no match for the H/K in the M3
- will it feel slow after an M3..?! Yes, is has 100 bhp less and little torque below Vtec. It is more fun to drive and the steering is better than that on the M3, also the gear change is no comparison the S2000 has the best manual change possibly on any car. But the M3 is much faster and more refined
I'm not looking at any specific model year but budget around £6-7k and would like xenon headlights. Think they all had those. You will probably want to get a '02 then with the glass rear screen, earlier ones had plastic, the later ones ie. '04 face-lift will be out of budget
Any tips appreciated!
) etc. It should be cheaper to run and more reliable (although insurance may well be more expensive). But the M3 is a more expensive car and feels it, it is faster, has stability control, better interior, stereo etc.When I have the option of taking either car I would take the S2000 since I enjoy it more, I like its rawer nature, its more fun but the M3 is more capable in more situations so it depends on what you want and the type of driving you do. The M3 really is the natural car to progress to from the S2000 so i'm not sure if the S2000 can win this debate. If it were me I would pick the Honda but I think for 90% the M3 is the better choice.
Edited by Mr Sparkle on Sunday 11th December 15:59
If you do many long motorway journeys you will come to hate the s2000 , it is noisy , very noisy.
when we have a long journey to do , the V70 gets pride of place.
Being used to an M3 you will think the s2000 has a mechanical problem , there simply is no comparison performance wise.
I saw a thread on s2ki this week where a guy said he was staying with his mates M3 , if so , his Nan must have been driving the M3 .
We have had our S 8 years now , great fun to drive , very nimble and you will love the gearbox, coming from a biking background , the lack of torque doesnt give me a problem , but you do need to be in the right gear all the time if you want to move along.
Excellent running costs for the performance available, spares are extremely sensibly priced and even main dealer servicing is cheap .
when we have a long journey to do , the V70 gets pride of place.
Being used to an M3 you will think the s2000 has a mechanical problem , there simply is no comparison performance wise.
I saw a thread on s2ki this week where a guy said he was staying with his mates M3 , if so , his Nan must have been driving the M3 .
We have had our S 8 years now , great fun to drive , very nimble and you will love the gearbox, coming from a biking background , the lack of torque doesnt give me a problem , but you do need to be in the right gear all the time if you want to move along.
Excellent running costs for the performance available, spares are extremely sensibly priced and even main dealer servicing is cheap .
Well I've got an S2K for about 9 months now and have driven it loads. I still don't know if I like it though! If you need it for daily driving it will annoy you regularly! It's very noisy on the motorway and very cramped as well. Engine sounds quite rough being a 4-pot, but great once in vtec. But in the right situation it's one of the most fun cars I've ever driven. And with the tracking sorted and good tyres it's amazingly grippy round corners. I'm sure the M3 will feel a lot more sure footed and easier to drive quick. The S2K always feels like it wants to kill you!
I haven't driven the E46 M3, but expect the S2K to feel quite slow. Once you learn to use the revs it's pretty quick though and on a twisty track an E46 M3 probably woulnd't even be that much faster (it will on the straights!). The S2000 is nearly 300kg's lighter, so that helps with cornering and braking.
Anyway, you might find this Best Motoring vid interesting to watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tc-cSp6GN7Q
I haven't driven the E46 M3, but expect the S2K to feel quite slow. Once you learn to use the revs it's pretty quick though and on a twisty track an E46 M3 probably woulnd't even be that much faster (it will on the straights!). The S2000 is nearly 300kg's lighter, so that helps with cornering and braking.
Anyway, you might find this Best Motoring vid interesting to watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tc-cSp6GN7Q
S2000 is a laugh, great fun giving it 9k revs with the roof down.
It handles great, it rides b roads ok, mechanically bullet proof (age dependent), 25-27mpg ish, cheap consumables compared to m3. Involving drive - gearbox is incredible
Downfalls - very basic interior and spec compared to m3, lack of ooomph (although in the right gear at the right time it's no slouch), tiresome on long journeys (noisy and very flat in 5th and 6th), expensive insurance
Just over 4k revs at 80mph. Cruising any faster becomes very noisy and illegal.
I have a hardtop which is a nice addition, really changes the look and feel of the car - keeps it warmer and quieter.
You'll have to drive one and see if the crazy revs and chuckability outweighs the performance drop.
It handles great, it rides b roads ok, mechanically bullet proof (age dependent), 25-27mpg ish, cheap consumables compared to m3. Involving drive - gearbox is incredible
Downfalls - very basic interior and spec compared to m3, lack of ooomph (although in the right gear at the right time it's no slouch), tiresome on long journeys (noisy and very flat in 5th and 6th), expensive insurance
Just over 4k revs at 80mph. Cruising any faster becomes very noisy and illegal.
I have a hardtop which is a nice addition, really changes the look and feel of the car - keeps it warmer and quieter.
You'll have to drive one and see if the crazy revs and chuckability outweighs the performance drop.
I'm hankering for an e46 m3, so to go the other way is a downgrade IMO. I echo most of the statements already made, but there is a vid on YouTube of both cars accelerating at full load and the m3 only pulls away at high speed.... I'll try and find it when I'm not on the iPod, but imagine it is easy to find.
Thanks to all for taking the time to write such detailed replies!
It was a bit of a Sunday morning post and I obviously need to put a lot of thought into whether I would be happy with an S2000 after the M3 in terms of quality, comfort, spec and (most importantly) performance!
Although I'm a big VTEC fan and like proper convertibles (I miss my Elise for that), perhaps it would be best to keep hold of the M3, a car I know well. Incredibly it gives me 28mpg anyway so it's unlikely I would spend any less on fuel in an S2000.. and it's not like i'd be putting much money in the bank anyway.
Ok so now i've talked myself into keeping the M3.
It was a bit of a Sunday morning post and I obviously need to put a lot of thought into whether I would be happy with an S2000 after the M3 in terms of quality, comfort, spec and (most importantly) performance!
Although I'm a big VTEC fan and like proper convertibles (I miss my Elise for that), perhaps it would be best to keep hold of the M3, a car I know well. Incredibly it gives me 28mpg anyway so it's unlikely I would spend any less on fuel in an S2000.. and it's not like i'd be putting much money in the bank anyway.
Ok so now i've talked myself into keeping the M3
.JFReturns said:
I'm hankering for an e46 m3, so to go the other way is a downgrade IMO. I echo most of the statements already made, but there is a vid on YouTube of both cars accelerating at full load and the m3 only pulls away at high speed.... I'll try and find it when I'm not on the iPod, but imagine it is easy to find.
I can believe this, Ive had Prelude 2.2s and an EK9 and they feel fast when on cam. My Prelude could stay with a S2000 so there wasnt much in that, the M3 comes into its own over 100. Hondas are great fun, but they are different cars....completely.
Here is the S2000 vs M3 video mentioned in my post above. Not sure if they are both standard, sounded like it.
Sidewindow said:
Ok so now i've talked myself into keeping the M3 .
Unless you need to save money, that'd be my call. Mikey's summary said most of what I was going to post..As to which is more fun - depends on the roads you use and the type of driving you enjoy - the M3 is almost certain to be easier to oversteer and hold than the S2000, but it also needs more speed before it truly feels like it's 'working'. So if you like 'pushing the envelope', then the S2000 is probably better for your licence!
My one real gripe with the S2000 was feedback - not quite enough, and arguably a little less than the M3. Could have had a bit more mid-range too, I guess - you learn to drive around it and use the perfect gear-change.
My two minor gripes with the M3 were ride quality (bit stiff for a daily driver, esp. on 19"s...and I'm currently using an ITR day-to-day), and the throttle - DBW, and not bad, but slightly artificial.
I've not driven an M3 so don't have a basis for comparison on that front, but I will say that if you can live with an Elise for long journeys you definitely can cope with the s2k.
I used to drive from Reading to Edinburgh for a further 4 days driving in the Highlands and then back without any issues, and have done a couple of 300+ mile a day trips across Europe in the S.
The only downside to those kind of trips, if motorway/autoroute, is the noise from being a cab, rather than coupe.
I used to drive from Reading to Edinburgh for a further 4 days driving in the Highlands and then back without any issues, and have done a couple of 300+ mile a day trips across Europe in the S.
The only downside to those kind of trips, if motorway/autoroute, is the noise from being a cab, rather than coupe.
It will be more fun in the way that it's convertible and the gearbox/clutch combination is superb, but expect it to be a bit slower and cruder at normal speeds (i.e 4cyl v straight 6). It will be far cheaper to run, but depends on what year you get.
It isn't a motorway car, in fact I call it a top down car, its only really happy thrashing it with the roof down (in all weathers) - it might annoy you on long distances, but its not too bad - more engine noise than wind/tyre etc.
Driving style, if you dont like the "jack russell going after rat" approach, you'll hate it, you need to hammer it in each gear to make very good progress, but then it will. Think 4th gear in turbo/large capacity, you'll be in 2nd in the s2k.
I can only compare to an M3 cab, which I thought was heavy and didnt feel like the 340hp it had, combined with a nasty clutch. I suspect (hope) the M3 coupe is a lot better (never driven one of those though).
Discs and pads are cheap if you avoid main dealers, no problems on track (see Brakesinternational). Make sure the calipers are OK!
eta - forgot to say early ones have no traction/stability control at all, so be aware especially in this weather, also find one where the stereo and speakers have been upgraded (pref with a sub + headrest speakers) - the stock system is poor.
It isn't a motorway car, in fact I call it a top down car, its only really happy thrashing it with the roof down (in all weathers) - it might annoy you on long distances, but its not too bad - more engine noise than wind/tyre etc.
Driving style, if you dont like the "jack russell going after rat" approach, you'll hate it, you need to hammer it in each gear to make very good progress, but then it will. Think 4th gear in turbo/large capacity, you'll be in 2nd in the s2k.
I can only compare to an M3 cab, which I thought was heavy and didnt feel like the 340hp it had, combined with a nasty clutch. I suspect (hope) the M3 coupe is a lot better (never driven one of those though).
Discs and pads are cheap if you avoid main dealers, no problems on track (see Brakesinternational). Make sure the calipers are OK!
eta - forgot to say early ones have no traction/stability control at all, so be aware especially in this weather, also find one where the stereo and speakers have been upgraded (pref with a sub + headrest speakers) - the stock system is poor.
Edited by mattcov on Friday 16th December 17:44
mattcov said:
eta - forgot to say early ones have no traction/stability control at all, so be aware especially in this weather
The car is fine to be driven in all weathers without any aids - after all, it's got a very linear delivery, quick steering, and isn't over-endowed with torque. But you do need to think about how you're driving it, unlike the current generation of Playstation-like "nail the throttle let the electronics sort it out" cars.Coming from an M3 you're used to rwd anyway, so should be fine. For me it did take some getting used to after years of fast fwd motoring. I don't think it's too bad in bad weather.
Yesterday morning it was very cold and wet and tried it on a bit, but still plenty of grip. And providing your tyres and tracking are sorted, it isn't too hard to catch a slide! When I just got it, it wasn't aligned properly and tyres pretty much gone. I had some very interesting moments even in the dry and it was near impossible to catch, scary at times!
Yesterday morning it was very cold and wet and tried it on a bit, but still plenty of grip. And providing your tyres and tracking are sorted, it isn't too hard to catch a slide! When I just got it, it wasn't aligned properly and tyres pretty much gone. I had some very interesting moments even in the dry and it was near impossible to catch, scary at times!
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