New drivers stepping up through the ranks

[Burndown]

Over recent times there have been a number of Jr Dragster competitors stepping up from the class into the ranks of sportsman or pro racing.

In other forms of motorsport there is a natural progression through the classes where driving ability is matched with the performance of the car in which the drivers move into. As you improve as a driver, you move into faster vehicles.
The licencing of drivers is into a class controls the way in which drivers can "step up" and this system has been sucessful over the years.

I read witrh interest the article on Eurodragster today in which there was an article about the first lady to step up from Jr Dragster directly into Top Fuel. To me as a layman this sounds like a huge "step up" or is it really that easy to drive a fuel car?

[topfuelgb]

Fuel cars are easy to drive, otherwise i wouldnt have been able to do it
Quite a few drivers have moved straight up from jd to tf, most noteable in the states being jr todd some years back when he started driving for bruce litton.
Truth is its all about nerve and staying clam. If you rush, get flustered or worry and cant control your heart rate youl be in big trouble because it is a nerve wracking experience until you get used to it.
Jd gives racers great practice at cutting lights, staging, and staying calm under pressure when racing infront of a big crowd.
The easiest way i can describe driving a fuel car is its like playing a fast video game, to start with its manic but it gets slower with time...Oh and its like being beaten up on the way!
Best description is like andy carter put it, there are drivers and licence holders.
No offence to anyone at all, but some can drive, some can hang on....
Trust me ANYONE that gets on one has tremendous bottle...
Anyone who doesnt beleive me can rent one of Runes cars and get their licence anytime they like

Edited by topfuelgb on Friday 16th November 23:14

[Benni]

In Germany, the rulebook says that you are only allowed to step up
from JD to -maximal- Super Comp,
same goes for a grown-up with a fresh license, SC is the fastest class allowed.
Maybe even SP/ET if you only dial in with an 8,90 ?
I don`t know really, have to find that out.

[WJM]

[The easiest way i can describe driving a fuel car is its like playing a fast video game, to start with its manic but it gets slower with time...Oh and its like being beaten up on the way!


I remember years ago asking Dave Stone about driving the cars and he said that he thought that your brain sort of speeds up to compensate, he said that although the run only lasted 6 seconds {in those days} it feels longer and he could spend 10 minutes describing an individual run. He also said that the most violent bit was when the parachute came out especially at somewhere like Mantop where twin chutes were used.

I do also remember David Coultard saying when he was in a F1 car that it never felt that fast but if he had broken down and was standing watching at close range it looked terrifying !

Bill

[MotorPsycho]

It is very strange the way your mind slows things down and you can process everything that is happening and make split second decisions. One that sticks in my mind was about 3/4 track in the '34 the back end went loose at 150mph, instictively you correct but your mind runs through "loose, will it hold, is it coming back, lift? nope, power through!" all pretty much instantly while getting a hand ready on the chutes.

[topfuelgb]

case in point:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpY6FYkW26Q
watch it 20 times and you notice alot more and it looks slower...
Problem is in a tf car it costs about £80k for that many runs so learning is expensive.
That was Pat Dakin at pomona being 'joined' by Mike Ashley....Sort of thing that looks scary from the startline, but not so bad when youre in it

[Tet]

WJM said:

[The easiest way i can describe driving a fuel car is its like playing a fast video game, to start with its manic but it gets slower with time.

And that's basically the reason I feel that there should be restrictions on how many classes you can leapfrog in one go. It's not that you can't drive a quick car without experience, but that repeated passes bring a level of comfort at speed, so that if and when things do go wrong, you're going to be better equipped to deal with it. Certainly when I first drove a dragster it seemed implausibly quick with no time to think, but after acclimatizing to it for a while, I found I had spare capacity to allow me to check oil pressure, see where the car in the other lane was, etc. I suspect that jumping straight in at the deep end would be difficult. I found the jump from 8 seconds to 6 seconds to be quite a big one. Not so much on the launch, but certainly further down the track, and I imagine the nitro classes would be at least as big a jump. I'm not saying that going from JD straight into Top Fuel can't be done because it clearly can. But is it a good idea? I'm not so sure.

But maybe I'm wrong. Darryl, IIRC you went straight into TMD with no previous racing experience. How did you find it? How long did it take before you felt at ease enough in the car to be able to think about what was going on and to be confident of catching the car if it made a move?

[topfuelgb]

Tet said:

But maybe I'm wrong. Darryl, IIRC you went straight into TMD with no previous racing experience. How did you find it? How long did it take before you felt at ease enough in the car to be able to think about what was going on and to be confident of catching the car if it made a move?

Well i 'kind of' did.
Rules were i had to compete in at least 4 permitted events in a 'slower' class, ie not a blown dragster before i was allowed to licence in a tmd.
That didnt stop me trying it before at a rwyb, which in hindsight may not have been the best idea but i thought to myself, well the worst im going to do is get out and not like it!
Problem was i had no other options so it really was in at the deep end.
I did it though, and when i started racing a few things amazed me.
First was just how much different 'licensing' was to racing.
Sounds obvious, but the whole time i was learning all i was concerntrating on was the sensation.
As soon as there was someone in the other lane, and even though it was 2001 i can remember it like it was earlier today, that totally changed.
All i wanted to do when i brought the revs up and staged was rip the other guys head off, in a friendly competitve way of course
Il never forget getting to past half track and i couldnt see the guy in the other lane.
My brain was thinking ' jesus this is a bit quick' and my right foot was saying 'no its not'.
Again in hindsight that is probably the dangerous part where your racing instinct takes over from what you head is telling you.
What then happened was after i ran each time i realised i was doing everything, shifting and steering etc by instinct and it was feeling really good.
Come to think of it on the 2nd ever run i made the air bottle wasnt turned on so when i hit second nothing, so fractionally later i hit 3rd and still nothing so i got off it, again at the time i had no idea how i did it other than instinct and like has been said, it felt like it was slowing down already.
By the time the 3rd event of the season rolled round i was LOVING it and couldnt wait to go every time.
There are so so so many little things that you learn along the way and there is no substitute for experience.
Like i said earlier watch the clip of pat dakin in pomona 20 times and it really doesnt seem that fast by then.
The most common or 'easiest' mistake for someone getting in a fast blown dragster is this:
Licensing is launch, 1/8th mile and pull chutes then full run and pull both....
Trouble is when you go through the top end for the first time at full tilt at anything over 200mph really the chutes hitting causes such a quick and instant deceleration it throws you forward.
Since i did it, out of habit i always listen when the licensing driver goes through the traps because you can hear them whack the throttle again after the finish line when it throws you forward...
I did it and without naming names i mentioned it a few newly licensed drivers and to a man (and woman) they all said 'yeah i did that'
How'd it go in the states licencing with low 6's tet?

[Tet]

topfuelgb said:

How'd it go in the states licencing with low 6's tet?

I loved every second of it! In some ways, I was surprised it didn't pack a bigger punch on the hit. The difference between an 8 second launch and a low 6 second launch isn't as big as I was expecting. But the blown car just kept pulling most of the way down the track. Which was nice :-) I didn't stab the throttle again after pulling the chutes, but I did make my fair share of other mistakes. Most notably, pulling too hard on the brake after the chutes had come out, which launched the rear of the car into the air and it started bouncing quite violently. That was an interesting experience, to say the least!

[dorrisdormouse]

Ive had the airborne due to braking too hard experience too in my lil 8 second car. When I was going around 140-145mph it was easy to just get on the brakes - no chute - and be off at the first turn off. We made some small changes and she stepped up to around 152-155mph and I didnt realise on the first run how much difference that made. She usually wants to bounce a little around the gate just after the traps anyway, but when it did it the first time i braked too hard and set her really jumping. Dave Catton said he could see my head appearing above some of the trailers as I bounced down the runoff. Kept it straight and got off the brake and let her settle down. Was a moment, and thinking about it afterwards was worse than while it was happening. Like you say instinct takes over and you do what you need to do.

[Turbobird1]

ok some points
firstly i dont believe that driving a seven second door car will give ANY of the relevant skills or prepare anyone for the experience of driving a fia spec center drive 5 sec funny car, or Dragster,ie clutch car
or fuel fc / dragster with a glide type clutch,
there is nothing remotely similar,

so why would you force someone to drive something that it totally irrelevant,

lots of the better drivers have gone straight into pro classes where they dont have previous experience to contaminate the new skills they are trying to learn,

JD to TF.....why not there both essentially push and go and with the right build up and training and some personal discipline perfectly feasible in my book,

Andy Wright diddnt do a bad job of nothing to pro mod,
Johnny Lindberg went from nothing to TMFC and run a record speed his first year,

Gareth will learn in a competitive TMFC and why not hes been at the track since he was 5 yo hes now 33 and spent years crewing on Dannys PM my SM and my PM cars so i recon hes more than qualified to get in one as he knows every single nut, bolt, mechanical system, electrical system, involved in a modern hemi lenco trans and many types of clutch,

he will get in the car and with training from Dan will sink or swim......given the track id expect within a year he will be running the 5.7s the car is capable of

Edited by Turbobird1 on Monday 10th December 14:30

[TheMighty]

"Education is not the learning of facts but the training of the mind to think."

I believe this applies to driving race cars as much as it does in any other area. The fact is most people are capable of the processes and have the motor-skills to drive a race car, but the training of the mind to be able to best process these tasks properly, efficiently and consistently is something which requires the training of the mind and in particular with racing, the subconscious which gathers information slowly and by repetition.

Surely there are significant advantages in training the mind to be able to think about "drag racing" and the things which are common to the sport regardless of class first at lower speeds so that it then has greater capability and capacity for learning new processes when making the step up to something a little more challenging?

[MotorPsycho]

I'd agree with that Chris, but personally I'd say the mind-set and attitude is arguabley more important.

If you grow up around the cars, working on them and understanding everything that is going on. You get the mechanical feel and are in tune with the car, a lot of drag racing relies on instinct and making very snap decissions. Anyone can stand on the throttle and hold on, but when something goes wrong the rest comes into play. There's two types of people drivers, and racers.

I have every confidence Gareth will succeed in the funny car Graham, no reason he can't jump straight into one and do well for the above reasons, Joe did it straight out of juniors. Good luck to both of you.

[dorrisdormouse]

My belief is that ideally you need to "build up" to running your quickest - training your brain for to handle the vehicle as you progress. Not only that but I believe it to be beneficial to experience wild rides at a slower speed so that you have the experience to deal with them at high speed where theres a lot less time to react and a lot more potentially to go wrong. That doesnt mean that you cant do that in a single car, or learn relatively quickly. Each time on track is a learning experience - some time's your learning something about setup, or what to do / what not to do in a given situation, or just what it feels like when you run consistently. Your brain adjusts each run so over time runs tend to feel "slower" even when they are not. Also the sort of car is critical I would think. Running an 8 in a long wheel base dragster could well feel slower than running an 8 in a street car. Different driving styles and different experiences.

[Turbobird1]

there are drivers and drivers
a good driver will have an inbuilt instinct for what is going on
trust me in a low 6 sec pro mod you drive by instinct not training if you have the instinct you will drive good if you dont you wont....you cant learn instinct
what ever our buddy Tet felt from his low 6 sec tmd rides, put that same et in a door car and your world explodes....like riding a bucking bronco you do it with instinct
and you all seem to forget a tmfc wll run 8s it will run 7s then 6s he wont get in and go 5s straight away......anyway what ever anyone thinks wont change the facts hes gonna drive it

[63vette]

Team Ellis, first into the fives?, who?, where?, when?.

[Mark13]

...and the much anticipated debut for the nitrous Vette, where and when?

[Jon C]

I was talking to Bob Jarrett about this a few years ago when he was looking to hire out the second Showtime Avenger. I asked him what qualities he was looking for, and his first criteria and second criteria were based around budget and attitude. I then suggested that 'not being frightened of the thing' must come high on the list too. Bob gave me *that* look, and then replied 'well, if you are scared of it, why would you even think about driving it?'

I learned a lot from Bob, on many occasions. That day was no exception.....

[TheMighty]

Turbobird1 said:

there are drivers and drivers
a good driver will have an inbuilt instinct for what is going on
trust me in a low 6 sec pro mod you drive by instinct not training if you have the instinct you will drive good if you dont you wont....you cant learn instinct
what ever our buddy Tet felt from his low 6 sec tmd rides, put that same et in a door car and your world explodes....like riding a bucking bronco you do it with instinct
and you all seem to forget a tmfc wll run 8s it will run 7s then 6s he wont get in and go 5s straight away......anyway what ever anyone thinks wont change the facts hes gonna drive it

I think people are confusing "instinct" with subconscious behaviours and learned aptitudes.

Its very much the same argument as I suffered for years with those who seem to think I am "very talented" and therefore lucky because I got to play the piano and make a good living at it for quite a number of years. The same is true here. It has nothing to do with "instinct" which would mean that it were a complex behaviour which was apparent in the whole species which therefore obviously negates the argument because we would all have the same ability. Subconscious behaviours and aptitude in any specific area are learned through all of our experiences and those especially which are repetitive. "Talent" or in this case "instinct" are terms which I see as simply excuses by those who do not invest themselves fully enough and won't actually admit that the true goal is actually a learned skill. As Adam mentions it is clear that those who have spent a large amount of time working with race cars do often seem to have a greater ability as drivers than someone who comes fresh to the sport. Is that "instinct" or is it actually a whole gamut of already learned behaviours which then allow the brain to quicker process and learn the further skills which will become the new subconscious behaviours that driving well actually requires?

Edited by TheMighty on Wednesday 26th December 15:14

[Turbobird1]

oh mr fkin spit hair

everything we ever do except breathing and making our heart beat is learnt and some are better than others at different things,
instinct is what were born with and the strongest (certainly in times of danger)is our self preservation instinct, there is no training for being in car at 200 250 300 mph what ever your poison and being sideways at that point and if you think frank hawley or paul marston can train you what to do in those circumstances your wrong cause they couldn't afford the smashed up machinery...they can give you advice after that its up to instinctively trying to do the right thing and our instinct whoever we are will be get off the gas steer away from the obstruction and brake and that goes for anyone who can drive a car yes of course that bits learnt ......but that learning produces instinctive reactions in given circumstances but its not peculiar to drag racing its what everyone does every day in their road cars,
as much as we love our sport, F1 it aint, when it comes to driver skills,
common sence, a healthy respect, and some balls being the main requirements,(edit as i made another mistake i left out MONEY from that list

and your point was???

now you cleared up the mistake I made about calling instinct subconscious behavior based on training, is the world a better place and did it contribute anything to this thread

Edited by Turbobird1 on Wednesday 26th December 18:17