Is the tide turning against carbon???
Discussion
OneDs said:
I thought everyone always "wanted" a ti bike, and a carbon bike is a compromise to get you the lightweight & strength but not the same type of ride quality at a lower cost.
This.Ti is king and will be for the forseeable future!
Ultimately carbon bikes are ten a penny nowadays, but a Titanium frame will always command a bit more respect.
shalmaneser said:
OneDs said:
I thought everyone always "wanted" a ti bike, and a carbon bike is a compromise to get you the lightweight & strength but not the same type of ride quality at a lower cost.
This.Ti is king and will be for the forseeable future!
Ultimately carbon bikes are ten a penny nowadays, but a Titanium frame will always command a bit more respect.
Although about to google search
If Ti bikes suddenly become £1k cheaper then you may have a point but i just can't see that happening. Carbon has it's place and so does Ti. If I get 5 years out of my carbon frame (got 1.5 years and 2 small off's so far) I'll be more than happy with a bike that cost £1k. Being 18 stone it's the back wheel that needs constant attention!
One day I'll own a Ti road bike, but at £2.5k+ it'll have to wait!
One day I'll own a Ti road bike, but at £2.5k+ it'll have to wait!
Edited by exgtt on Wednesday 13th April 01:26
I have heard a lot of bad things about Ti bikes.
The very best are excellent - Litespeeds and Lynskeys - but I have heard numerous accounts, some from a guy in our 'group' of Ti failing, normally at the welds. It is, apparently, an exceptionally difficult material to fabricate well.
Carbon, well I know two people who have had failures on very expensive carbon full sussers; a Trek, where the bearings inexplicably slipped inside the frame and wrecked it; and a Specialized Stumpy which cracked near the main pivot. Both were sorted under warranty although, in the case of the Trek I'm not sure whether the guy (who is a bit of an industry insider) go preferential treatment. The Specialized was honoured by the firms commendable 5 year frame warranty.
I've owned a carbon Epic for a while - it was okay - but remain skeptical about both carbon and Ti for mtb frames. Fine for road, but mtb...
The very best are excellent - Litespeeds and Lynskeys - but I have heard numerous accounts, some from a guy in our 'group' of Ti failing, normally at the welds. It is, apparently, an exceptionally difficult material to fabricate well.
Carbon, well I know two people who have had failures on very expensive carbon full sussers; a Trek, where the bearings inexplicably slipped inside the frame and wrecked it; and a Specialized Stumpy which cracked near the main pivot. Both were sorted under warranty although, in the case of the Trek I'm not sure whether the guy (who is a bit of an industry insider) go preferential treatment. The Specialized was honoured by the firms commendable 5 year frame warranty.
I've owned a carbon Epic for a while - it was okay - but remain skeptical about both carbon and Ti for mtb frames. Fine for road, but mtb...
I don't think so.
Carbon frames are generally lighter, stiffer and cheaper and titanium frames are very difficult and costly to manufacture and repair. It is easy to manufacture monocoque frames with optimised tube profiles in carbon - hence the superior performance/stiffness/weight ratio.
The touted extra longevity of titanium isn't a great benefit to me personally as I like to update my best bike to take advantage of the latest technological developments every few years (disc brakes, gears, suspension etc). Repairing a titanium frame would cost more than repairing high quality steel and could easily cost more than simply replacing many carbon frames.
For touring or 'a keeper' I'd choose high quality Reynolds steel - custom fitted for me by a UK frame builder and built exactly to my specifications. Much cheaper and easier to repair (and if required, update) than titanium with very little loss in performance.
There are plenty of other applications on a bicycle where I think titanium is the ultimate material though and if my bike got knocked around a bit more through commuting, storage or transportation I'd be tempted by a Sabbath or Van Nicholas from Fat Birds - great value.
Carbon frames are generally lighter, stiffer and cheaper and titanium frames are very difficult and costly to manufacture and repair. It is easy to manufacture monocoque frames with optimised tube profiles in carbon - hence the superior performance/stiffness/weight ratio.
The touted extra longevity of titanium isn't a great benefit to me personally as I like to update my best bike to take advantage of the latest technological developments every few years (disc brakes, gears, suspension etc). Repairing a titanium frame would cost more than repairing high quality steel and could easily cost more than simply replacing many carbon frames.
For touring or 'a keeper' I'd choose high quality Reynolds steel - custom fitted for me by a UK frame builder and built exactly to my specifications. Much cheaper and easier to repair (and if required, update) than titanium with very little loss in performance.
There are plenty of other applications on a bicycle where I think titanium is the ultimate material though and if my bike got knocked around a bit more through commuting, storage or transportation I'd be tempted by a Sabbath or Van Nicholas from Fat Birds - great value.
I would love titanium but like everything there are frames and there are frames. It is a difficult material to work with and there are many who think they can. The joy of titanium is it changes charicter in the way the rider rides. It will harden and strengthen in a stressed point, it will also pass the stresses to a join / weld.
Carbon is here to stay and once again there are certain manufacturers to choose from. The only one for me is Trek with a lifetime warranty (as long as you purchased the bike). I have a riding buddy who is on his 4th top fuel 9.9, all replaced free, no questions asked, even afer a vid was posted of him monstering black runs. Not really what a 100mm XC bike is for!
Carbon is here to stay and once again there are certain manufacturers to choose from. The only one for me is Trek with a lifetime warranty (as long as you purchased the bike). I have a riding buddy who is on his 4th top fuel 9.9, all replaced free, no questions asked, even afer a vid was posted of him monstering black runs. Not really what a 100mm XC bike is for!
Carbon is simply a better material than Ti for producing light and optimally stiff structures. If Ti was better, but not used on cost grounds, the motorsport industry would still be using space-frames but made from Ti, and they're not - Carbon monocoques are the preference.
Interestingly, magnesium makes a better race frame than Ti - the Russian sports science institute proved as much in the early 90s as it has similar strength to weight properties of Ti, but offers better damping properties, and thus mitigates rider fatigue better. If I can find the paper on the subject I'll post it up.
Interestingly, magnesium makes a better race frame than Ti - the Russian sports science institute proved as much in the early 90s as it has similar strength to weight properties of Ti, but offers better damping properties, and thus mitigates rider fatigue better. If I can find the paper on the subject I'll post it up.
I am not an engineer, but IIRC, Ti welders have to be exceptionally careful about flooding the weld area with inert gas if the weld isn't going to develop seams of Ti oxide that will inevitably crack later down the line. I've read about too many cracked frames to trust a cheap Ti frame, or to think any of them are really "for life". Despite that, I'm currently toying with the idea of getting an Enigma Etape. I don't think I am careful enough with my bike to trust carbon. I'd constantly be paranoid that some inadvertent surface scratch had weakened it, and it was going to let go catastrophically. Current frame is 631. An Argos in 953 would go down well if I was aiming for a forever bike.
rhinochopig said:
Interestingly, magnesium makes a better race frame than Ti - the Russian sports science institute proved as much in the early 90s as it has similar strength to weight properties of Ti, but offers better damping properties, and thus mitigates rider fatigue better. If I can find the paper on the subject I'll post it up.
Awesome, my 20 y/o Kirk is the next big thing then. Anyone got Hoy's number? 
Gooby said:
I have a riding buddy who is on his 4th top fuel 9.9, all replaced free, no questions asked
Quite surprised he's managed to find his way through 4 frames...! Would this not restrict him to this frame only? ie. if he's had to get 3 replacements, it doesn't bode well if he ever decides to look elsewhere and tries to sell the frame (warranty no longer applies to new owner). I think you also have to look at Santa Cruz, as they are renowned to be one of if not the best frame builders in the mountain bike business. Over the last year or so they have brought out carbon frames as an alternative to most of their aluminium frames, including their current World Cup DH frame. I think it took them a while to convince themselves about the benefits of carbon technology on MTB frames but now that they are satisified, they've wholly embraced the technology and the frames are beautiful to behold.
I'd say carbon is here to stay.
Yes Carbon is still the current 'big thing' in MTB world. As above Santa Cruz has made a Carbon V10 and more importantly dropped the Alloy V10 - it's carbon or nothing.
Evil after 2 years of complete nightmares trying to get their Revolt DH frame made consistantly out of alloy have dropped it all together in favor of the Carbon Only 'Undead'
GT DH bikes have been Carbon for years.
Most high-end FS bikes are now Carbon or at least have Carbon options, and I fancy as volumes go up and prices down Alloy bikes will be phased out.
Evil after 2 years of complete nightmares trying to get their Revolt DH frame made consistantly out of alloy have dropped it all together in favor of the Carbon Only 'Undead'
GT DH bikes have been Carbon for years.
Most high-end FS bikes are now Carbon or at least have Carbon options, and I fancy as volumes go up and prices down Alloy bikes will be phased out.
donfisher said:
rhinochopig said:
Interestingly, magnesium makes a better race frame than Ti - the Russian sports science institute proved as much in the early 90s as it has similar strength to weight properties of Ti, but offers better damping properties, and thus mitigates rider fatigue better. If I can find the paper on the subject I'll post it up.
Awesome, my 20 y/o Kirk is the next big thing then. Anyone got Hoy's number? Its interesting to watch popular opinion on frames. If you read some of the cycling specific web message boards, then one of the most highly regarded frames at the moment is the Cannondale CAAD10 - alu, this seems to get more positive remarks than almost every other frame up to superbike price points. If i was after a bike to race on this would be my choice over carbon.
Personally i ride a Lemond Ti ( brushed ti finish ) road bike and Cannondale alu mtb, the Ti bike looks like new when i wash it even tho its seen 4-5yrs of heavy use - considering that it gets used right through the winter with a set of clip on guards this is good going in my opinion. Looking at carbon bikes of a similar vintage / mileage they tend to look very tired.
Not sure i would trust a carbon mtb yet, even tho its been around for an age and i'm sure its fine theres just that niggling doubt in the back of my mind that says if i hit that rock / tree at the wrong angle it would snap terminally, whereas the 'Dale would dent and live to fight another day.
However part of me would like a high end carbon bike at some point as the weight differences between one of these and most Ti frames ( certainly mine! ) is substantial. It wouldn't replace the Ti one however as this has a fairly timeless feel to it and is most definately a keeper.
Carbon frames seem to be manufactured at the whim of current marketing trends / fashions and even if they were as robust as a Ti frame they certainly wouldn't look as centempory as most of these after a few years.
Steel is a whole different argument, there are some gorgeous frames being made, as with ti the majority of builds tend to be fairly traditional geo so aren't likely to go out of fashion in a hurry but the weight tends to be higher. However just take a look at a Colnago Master X light, built up with the right components and i challange you to find a prettier looking bike carbon / ti / steel of any vintage.
Eg:
My ti
lemond3 by svenster78, on Flickr
Personally i ride a Lemond Ti ( brushed ti finish ) road bike and Cannondale alu mtb, the Ti bike looks like new when i wash it even tho its seen 4-5yrs of heavy use - considering that it gets used right through the winter with a set of clip on guards this is good going in my opinion. Looking at carbon bikes of a similar vintage / mileage they tend to look very tired.
Not sure i would trust a carbon mtb yet, even tho its been around for an age and i'm sure its fine theres just that niggling doubt in the back of my mind that says if i hit that rock / tree at the wrong angle it would snap terminally, whereas the 'Dale would dent and live to fight another day.
However part of me would like a high end carbon bike at some point as the weight differences between one of these and most Ti frames ( certainly mine! ) is substantial. It wouldn't replace the Ti one however as this has a fairly timeless feel to it and is most definately a keeper.
Carbon frames seem to be manufactured at the whim of current marketing trends / fashions and even if they were as robust as a Ti frame they certainly wouldn't look as centempory as most of these after a few years.
Steel is a whole different argument, there are some gorgeous frames being made, as with ti the majority of builds tend to be fairly traditional geo so aren't likely to go out of fashion in a hurry but the weight tends to be higher. However just take a look at a Colnago Master X light, built up with the right components and i challange you to find a prettier looking bike carbon / ti / steel of any vintage.
Eg:
My ti
lemond3 by svenster78, on Flickr
Gassing Station | Pedal Powered | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff