Discussion
I'm increasingly annoyed at myself for not having the bottle to carry my speed into jumps and table tops etc as I encountered at Llandegla on Saturday, each time I approached anything worthy of a gap between the tires I seemed to scrub off just enough speed to keep the rear wheel down, and I know it's stopping me from going from being a fast rider to a really fast rider.
Can anyone offer advice on best practive for such things, weight positioning, tips to bear in mind, good practice methods etc, or do I just need to man up and stop being such a pansy?
Can anyone offer advice on best practive for such things, weight positioning, tips to bear in mind, good practice methods etc, or do I just need to man up and stop being such a pansy?
I've only recently discovered the ability to jump table tops, so can only offer my limited knowledge. You don't need that much speed to get the rear airborne. My technique is to approach the ramp crouched and then as you get to the top pull the front up, quickly followed by tucking your legs up and this will pull the rear into the air as well. It's surprisingly easy once you get the hang on it. In reality my rear wheel probably only lifts a couple of inches, but it feels like you're flying 
Find a small tabletop and start by rolling over it. Build up some speed and start trying to clear the middle - it's much the same as a (proper, unclipped) bunnyhop. Weight shift back slightly, pull with your arms, as your rear wheel gets to the top of the upslope shift weight forward. Keep going till you can clear it and land on the downslope.
There's plenty of tutorial vids on youtube for specifics.
There's plenty of tutorial vids on youtube for specifics.
Biggest thing that I can say is this:
As long as you accept that you're not going to be starring on the next cover of MBUK, you can learn what you need in order to safely jump most things.
By this I mean:
I recently had to rediscover my jumping 'bottle' and having done so, it's all about confidence. Once you are happy with getting the bike in the air, you'll be surprised at how easy it is.
My one single thing is this: once you figure it out, get the weight pulling the bike back and up on the upslope, and then lean forward slightly - if you're front is too high, use the back brake to shut it down.
Imagine trying to bump a wheelbarrow up a kerb - a similar action is needed to get the bike in the air off a lip. To land, you want to land flat (or if downslope) or nose slightly down - to minimise jarring/buckaroo upon landing. This is exacerbated on doubles.
Always ensure you have more speed than you think as well at the start - I quickly realised my days of pootling up to any lip are long gone, and I need to carry speed over things again. You can always deal with overspeed better than underspeed when hitting unknown obstacles (which is why really we do this).
Once you get the hang of airtime, you can then start to worry about how far/high you want to go - you'll get this with experience. If you want to style, do it - but be ready to hurt yourself - I had my worst injuries from limb off action on photoshoots...
As far drop offs, which are hardly jumps, just ensure you scope your landing, and keeping the front up, ready to absorb the impact - you don't do this so much with normal jumping.
The key is practise practise practise - you WILL fall off - so learn also how to crash - no arms out front - try to roll...
As long as you accept that you're not going to be starring on the next cover of MBUK, you can learn what you need in order to safely jump most things.
By this I mean:
- Clear any drops
- Sucessfully deal with any unplanned air
- Be able to 'launch' when required
I recently had to rediscover my jumping 'bottle' and having done so, it's all about confidence. Once you are happy with getting the bike in the air, you'll be surprised at how easy it is.
My one single thing is this: once you figure it out, get the weight pulling the bike back and up on the upslope, and then lean forward slightly - if you're front is too high, use the back brake to shut it down.
Imagine trying to bump a wheelbarrow up a kerb - a similar action is needed to get the bike in the air off a lip. To land, you want to land flat (or if downslope) or nose slightly down - to minimise jarring/buckaroo upon landing. This is exacerbated on doubles.
Always ensure you have more speed than you think as well at the start - I quickly realised my days of pootling up to any lip are long gone, and I need to carry speed over things again. You can always deal with overspeed better than underspeed when hitting unknown obstacles (which is why really we do this).
Once you get the hang of airtime, you can then start to worry about how far/high you want to go - you'll get this with experience. If you want to style, do it - but be ready to hurt yourself - I had my worst injuries from limb off action on photoshoots...
As far drop offs, which are hardly jumps, just ensure you scope your landing, and keeping the front up, ready to absorb the impact - you don't do this so much with normal jumping.
The key is practise practise practise - you WILL fall off - so learn also how to crash - no arms out front - try to roll...
Cheers Neil. It's the speed thing which worries me mostly, dropoffs and jumps in a quarry for instance, I don't mind, because I can look at them and see what I need to do, but when your rapidly approaching a double or a tabletop on a speedy descent I always hesitate for too long while deciding what is the best action to take, by which time i'm upon it and take the default action, to apply the brakes. And as for dropoffs, if it's an unknown or unseen height i'm a complete girl on approach, anything over a few feet and i'm rolling over it steadily.
Drop-offs I can handle without too many issues - there's really no skill involved 
Getting my back wheel off the ground any other time is something that's mostly eluded me so far, and when I have managed it I've usually been thankful I've been wearing my full-face helmet.... so this year's resolution for me is to spend as much time as possible on the table tops at Cwmcarn learning to fly (I just wish they put them at the bottom of the hill and not the top!).
Getting my back wheel off the ground any other time is something that's mostly eluded me so far, and when I have managed it I've usually been thankful I've been wearing my full-face helmet.... so this year's resolution for me is to spend as much time as possible on the table tops at Cwmcarn learning to fly (I just wish they put them at the bottom of the hill and not the top!).
Hesistation is the single worst thing you can do in any jumps - including drop offs.
Problem being, of course, its the biggest issue of people not used to jumping.
Getting over it essentially is down to sitting at the top of a trail, and simply thinking "I can do this, I will do this" and just hitting it. It's what I had to do in October when I wanted to hit a big gap that I had been looking at for ages; having watched a mate who was not as skilled as me fly over it, I realised I needed to stop being gay and just hit it.
Most people have more skill than they realise and eventually hit a jump to realise it was actually a piece of piss and wonder what all the fuss was about.
By hitting things a little faster at first, you almost force yourself into hitting the trail, and thus the jump. You can scrub speed off easily, but not gain it - so go in faster...
Gawd, all this is making me wanna go ride - hurry up longer evenings!!!
Problem being, of course, its the biggest issue of people not used to jumping.
Getting over it essentially is down to sitting at the top of a trail, and simply thinking "I can do this, I will do this" and just hitting it. It's what I had to do in October when I wanted to hit a big gap that I had been looking at for ages; having watched a mate who was not as skilled as me fly over it, I realised I needed to stop being gay and just hit it.
Most people have more skill than they realise and eventually hit a jump to realise it was actually a piece of piss and wonder what all the fuss was about.
By hitting things a little faster at first, you almost force yourself into hitting the trail, and thus the jump. You can scrub speed off easily, but not gain it - so go in faster...
Gawd, all this is making me wanna go ride - hurry up longer evenings!!!
GHW said:
Drop-offs I can handle without too many issues - there's really no skill involved
Getting my back wheel off the ground any other time is something that's mostly eluded me so far, and when I have managed it I've usually been thankful I've been wearing my full-face helmet.... so this year's resolution for me is to spend as much time as possible on the table tops at Cwmcarn learning to fly (I just wish they put them at the bottom of the hill and not the top!).
That's the thing, when Moonie attempted that drop off at CwmCarn, I thought If he does it i'm having a go, when the wind took him and he nearly didn't land it I completely bottled out. I spose I could do with being there with less witnesses and a little more time to psyche myself up.Getting my back wheel off the ground any other time is something that's mostly eluded me so far, and when I have managed it I've usually been thankful I've been wearing my full-face helmet.... so this year's resolution for me is to spend as much time as possible on the table tops at Cwmcarn learning to fly (I just wish they put them at the bottom of the hill and not the top!).
Yeah, the first time I did the drop-offs at Cwmcarn I spent an hour or two there just going round and round building up to finally doing the top one comfortably.
I think getting the hang of the table tops there will take a wee bit longer though, given that I can't even bunny hop to save my life...
I think getting the hang of the table tops there will take a wee bit longer though, given that I can't even bunny hop to save my life...
GHW said:
Yeah, the first time I did the drop-offs at Cwmcarn I spent an hour or two there just going round and round building up to finally doing the top one comfortably.
I think getting the hang of the table tops there will take a wee bit longer though, given that I can't even bunny hop to save my life...
One thing to bear in mind chaps - when you see the bigger boys hitting jumps in the videos for example, they'll be using heavier more stable bikes - which are much easier to pilot in the air due to their inherent stability through weight.I think getting the hang of the table tops there will take a wee bit longer though, given that I can't even bunny hop to save my life...
If yer launching off drop offs at the top of Cymcarn, on XC bikes (or even freeridey style bikes) you're always going to find the wind will push you about, never mind the lighter bike being sketchier generally in the air.
I jump better on my Commencal Supreme than my Commencal Meta - however as a more skilled rider, I can make the Meta move about and dance easier than the Supreme, but with more risk of over compensating.
Worth considering it before getting overstressed about it- you may also be finding that your overall bike setup (i.e. angles, stem length etc) could be restricting you slightly...
Edited by neil_bolton on Monday 21st January 17:13
Cwmcarn isn't exactly the easiest place in the world to learn, its bad enough hitting the bridge after the hip jump. If you hit it hard enough you can treat it like a stepdown. But as soon as the wind gets up it can (and has) caused some nasty accidents.
Thats at the bottom of the valley, it must be awful up in the 'freeride park' bit. I bet you get blown about all over the place.
Thats at the bottom of the valley, it must be awful up in the 'freeride park' bit. I bet you get blown about all over the place.
I don't think I have to worry about my bike being too light, it's definitely more of a freeride rig than an XC one
And the dirty great squishy marzocchi fork on the front seem to be very helpful when I do stupid things like this...
Believe it or not, the fork just soaked up that impact and I rolled off along the trail!
And the dirty great squishy marzocchi fork on the front seem to be very helpful when I do stupid things like this...
Believe it or not, the fork just soaked up that impact and I rolled off along the trail!
edit: use preview, you mong
Edited by GHW on Monday 21st January 17:30
I'm a bit lost on the lingo here I think.
I know what you mean about having bottle though, there's a section of steps on my bike home, I think there's 5, similar to stair depth, but a tiny bit longer, there's a slope to the side, and for about a week, I kept using the slope, but I finally got the confidence to ride the steps, nothing major, just a mental hurdle, I thought it would be more violent. Anway, a month or so later, I was getting some speed up and just clearing them, brilliant. It was these steps alone, that have encouraged me to get into biking. Not too sure how far you guys jump though?
Like someone mentioned earlier, it feels like I can get some real height, but it's probably just a few inches.
I'm looking forward to hitting thetford in February, will see what that's like then look for some other places. Never strayed from my local cliffs/beach or commute yet.
I know what you mean about having bottle though, there's a section of steps on my bike home, I think there's 5, similar to stair depth, but a tiny bit longer, there's a slope to the side, and for about a week, I kept using the slope, but I finally got the confidence to ride the steps, nothing major, just a mental hurdle, I thought it would be more violent. Anway, a month or so later, I was getting some speed up and just clearing them, brilliant. It was these steps alone, that have encouraged me to get into biking. Not too sure how far you guys jump though?
Like someone mentioned earlier, it feels like I can get some real height, but it's probably just a few inches.
I'm looking forward to hitting thetford in February, will see what that's like then look for some other places. Never strayed from my local cliffs/beach or commute yet.
Gratuitous chance to show off:
Idea of height...
Needless to say my first attempt was a big leap of faith - you couldnt see anything. However once done, as I said before - i was like "WTF, that was piss easy" and scooted back up and did it again, but with a bit more gusto...
ETA: To agree with the sentiment of Cymcarn - its a windy old place...
I think that many riders have been spoilt by the luxury of big travel forks - I know I've occasionally leant too much on them to get me out of scrapes.
I was certainly a better rider when I only had 2" of travel - yet was doing the same stuff as I do now...
Idea of height...
Needless to say my first attempt was a big leap of faith - you couldnt see anything. However once done, as I said before - i was like "WTF, that was piss easy" and scooted back up and did it again, but with a bit more gusto...
ETA: To agree with the sentiment of Cymcarn - its a windy old place...
I think that many riders have been spoilt by the luxury of big travel forks - I know I've occasionally leant too much on them to get me out of scrapes.
I was certainly a better rider when I only had 2" of travel - yet was doing the same stuff as I do now...
Edited by neil_bolton on Monday 21st January 17:51
Good thread this - went through a similar 'bottle' problem after coming a cropper on my local trail about 18 months ago. Got the approach wrong to a drop-off I'd many times before and the bike hit a lip on take-off which threw me off line on onto rocks, knees first, still held by SPDs. Took ages to go over that drop-off again, but once I'd done it, an entire wall of mental blocks were washed away.
I watched so many people go over this drop-off on a variety of stuff, from 6" dualies to 80mm hardtails, that I realised as long as I had enough speed and didn't attack quite as aggressively as I had previously (was really going for it when I fell off) then I would be fine. I got a friend to go over at his normal pace, and I followed with another friend right behind me to stop me slowing down and the three of us just trickled over. Marvellous.
I watched so many people go over this drop-off on a variety of stuff, from 6" dualies to 80mm hardtails, that I realised as long as I had enough speed and didn't attack quite as aggressively as I had previously (was really going for it when I fell off) then I would be fine. I got a friend to go over at his normal pace, and I followed with another friend right behind me to stop me slowing down and the three of us just trickled over. Marvellous.
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