I've killed my brakes

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pcwilson

Original Poster:

1,245 posts

243 months

Wednesday 17th October 2007
quotequote all
Put my 5 month old Rockhopper into my lbs today to get the discs bled as there is a lot of play in the levers. Got a call a couple of hours later to say bleeding won't fix the problem. Apparently the piston seals on the Avid Juicy Three disc brakes (front and rear) are worn and the springs aren't strong enough to return the levers to their normal position. And it's all my fault!!! After every ride I wash and dry my bike, lube the chain, and finish off with a squirt of WD-40 in the brake lever bodies (amongst other places) to drive out any water I couldn't get to. Apparently the WD-40 has perished the seals. Has anyone else experienced this? Is there anywhere else I shouldn't be spraying WD-40?


BadgerBenji

3,524 posts

225 months

Thursday 18th October 2007
quotequote all
WD40 perishing seals, I find that very hard to believe. WD40 is great as a water repellant and is primarily a penetrant lubricant, I have never seen problems from its usage. Good chain lube is always worth using something like pedro's but your cleaning regime I do not believe is the issue.

Edited by BadgerBenji on Thursday 18th October 06:20

neil_bolton

17,113 posts

271 months

Thursday 18th October 2007
quotequote all
WD40 on anything bikewise isn't a great idea.

I'd never really spray any hydraulic seals with a lubricant - especially ones which hold brake fluid.

I'm not saying that spraying it with WD40 has caused it, however its not something I'd advise.

Take that as you will, however duff seals do happen on brakes, and so you'll need to replace them.

pdV6

16,442 posts

268 months

Thursday 18th October 2007
quotequote all
The only place I use WD40 is on the chain after cleaning and prior to lubing.

I have Juicy 5's and the only maintenance they've needed in a year is pad replacements. Still feel as sweet as the day they were installed.

Rico

7,916 posts

262 months

Thursday 18th October 2007
quotequote all
pdV6 said:
I have Juicy 5's and the only maintenance they've needed in a year is pad replacements. Still feel as sweet as the day they were installed.
  • cough* CwmCarn downhill *cough* byebye

pdV6

16,442 posts

268 months

Thursday 18th October 2007
quotequote all
Rico said:
pdV6 said:
I have Juicy 5's and the only maintenance they've needed in a year is pad replacements. Still feel as sweet as the day they were installed.
  • cough* CwmCarn downhill *cough* byebye
hehe Fair cop but that was pads! Soooo glad I left the spare set in the back of Neil's car rather than in my pocket. Not.

Edited by pdV6 on Thursday 18th October 10:31

atom111

1,035 posts

232 months

Thursday 18th October 2007
quotequote all
Is GT85 better worse or no different on hydraulic seals?

pcwilson

Original Poster:

1,245 posts

243 months

Thursday 18th October 2007
quotequote all
BadgerBenji said:
WD40 perishing seals, I find that very hard to believe. WD40 is great as a water repellant and is primarily a penetrant lubricant, I have never seen problems from its usage. Good chain lube is always worth using something like pedro's but your cleaning regime I do not believe is the issue.

Edited by BadgerBenji on Thursday 18th October 06:20
Hi BB

Thanks for the advice. I use White Lightening Epic to lube my chain (one drop per link); then wipe off excess when it's had a chance to do it's thing.

I think I'm going to chance my arm and try and get the piston seals replaced under warranty.

Cheers
Phil



neil_bolton

17,113 posts

271 months

Thursday 18th October 2007
quotequote all
atom111 said:
Is GT85 better worse or no different on hydraulic seals?
Technically I couldn't say, but its certainly a drier lube than WD40.

I wouldn't stick anything lube wise near a seal personally - you don't do it to forks, so why brakes?

GreenV8S

30,463 posts

291 months

Thursday 18th October 2007
quotequote all
BadgerBenji said:
WD40 perishing seals, I find that very hard to believe.
Most oils will rot most rubbers, and WD40 is no exception. Unless the rubber is oil resistent, you should keep it away from any oil.

mk1fan

10,648 posts

232 months

Thursday 18th October 2007
quotequote all
Err.. Yes you do. Well the Fox, Rockshox, Manitou and Pace forks have it in their manuals to spray the stantions / sliders. And the Fox Float rear shocks need spraying too. Although excess is to be wiped away to prevent contanmination of the shock oils. (I will double check this but I'm pretty certain)

GT85 has 'teflon' added to it to maintain lubricant after it dries. War Department 40 doesn't.

Edited by mk1fan on Thursday 18th October 13:25

neil_bolton

17,113 posts

271 months

Thursday 18th October 2007
quotequote all
mk1fan said:
Err.. Yes you do. Well the Fox, Rockshox, Manitou and Pace forks have it in their manuals to spray the stantions / sliders. And the Fox Float rear shocks need spraying too. Although excess is to be wiped away to prevent contanmination of the shock oils. (I will double check this but I'm pretty certain)

GT85 has 'teflon' added to it to maintain lubricant after it dries. War Department 40 doesn't.

Edited by mk1fan on Thursday 18th October 13:25
You know that oil inside the fork? You know that kerazy oil bath technology they've had for quite some time? wink

Well thats your fork lubrication.

Yes, I grant you that it says in various manuals you have to, but don't always believe what you read. I was told by Tim at TF Tuned that I should never need to touch my forks other than to keep them clean and well serviced.

Additionally, brake system hyd' seals are a completely different material to fork seals, however the mentality is the same. You buy a fork to keep the good stuff in, and the bad stuff out, and introducing lube to a fork can start to cause grit etc to stick to stanchions and cause pitting/scarring.


mk1fan

10,648 posts

232 months

Thursday 18th October 2007
quotequote all
Well firstly, I didn't say it was done for / or as the lubication system. Secondly, I would rather do what is says in the manual and then hold the maker responsible for any failure.

Maybe you should read and the whole of a post before responding like a child?

Rico

7,916 posts

262 months

Thursday 18th October 2007
quotequote all
I'm not a mechanic so can't really comment, but I've used my Fox 100s for about 2 years now weekly, never touched them, and they're still lovely and smooth.

I'll ask my technician mate about this when he's back from the USA next week. He's got Rockshox, Fox and Manitou qualifications so sure he'll know.

One thing, often the manufacturers include crap advice in the manuals. They're written before the forks are released so many mechanics don't follow them due to there being better solutions over time.

neil_bolton

17,113 posts

271 months

Thursday 18th October 2007
quotequote all
mk1fan said:
Well firstly, I didn't say it was done for / or as the lubication system. Secondly, I would rather do what is says in the manual and then hold the maker responsible for any failure.

Maybe you should read and the whole of a post before responding like a child?
Righto then, Mr pedantic: What were you getting at? Do you know why you are spraying your seals? Your teflon coated and very well fitting seals, and super slick stanchions not good enough?

The days of having to spray your forks to keep them smooth running are long gone. You'll find now that MOST forks will require dust seal and stanchion lubrication and after every 10 or so rides, NOT dousing in GT85 after every ride/wash.

There is specific lubrication available for this: Slick Honey, England Lube etc (Judy Butter my favourite from years ago, although not sure how valid it is now).

I've had my 66's over three years, and not ONCE have I ever gone near them to clean, service or maintain them, yet they still owrk as lovely as ever. Reason for that? Because the internal gubbins are good enough to keep them working nice; a very well designed open oil bath.

I'd never go near a seal with something that could potentially damage it. Equally, I quite like ensuring that my fluids stay nice and clean. By chatting to the people regarded as the most knowledgable in the world, and asking them, I was assured that the forks require minimal tending to bar a service every so often. I think I trust Tim (TF) or Mojo more that some taiwanese translation.


mk1fan

10,648 posts

232 months

Thursday 18th October 2007
quotequote all
Well, again I haven't said anything about 'dousing' anything in lubrication / penetration oils. Nor spraying it in, on, over, through or any other action to my seals. Merely that the American written Fox manual has it (by your own admission) as part of routine maintenance for stantions.

Also, Mojo have advised me to use GT85 on stantions so are you saying you are more knowledgeable than they? Incidentally, they advised me to store my bike upside down once a week to keep the seals bathed in oil.

I would reason that the purpose of spraying the stantions with a water replant lubricant after washing it / a wet ride, and then wiping away the excess, was to prevent water marks forming on the surface finish. If you'd like some further info on the damage water can do to an applied finish than scooch on over to the detailing forum and have a read around.

I assume these are your forks for sale then as you say you don't service them in anyway? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Fox-Forx_W0QQitemZ2201604664...

Considering you opened with a dig about pedantry you don't seem to be very consistant through your reply.

neil_bolton

17,113 posts

271 months

Thursday 18th October 2007
quotequote all
mk1fan said:
Well, again I haven't said anything about 'dousing' anything in lubrication / penetration oils. Nor spraying it in, on, over, through or any other action to my seals. Merely that the American written Fox manual has it (by your own admission) as part of routine maintenance for stantions.


I didn't quote any manual more what, from experience, and hard earned experience, has worked absolutely fine.

mk1fan said:
Also, Mojo have advised me to use GT85 on stantions so are you saying you are more knowledgeable than they? Incidentally, they advised me to store my bike upside down once a week to keep the seals bathed in oil.
Tim advised me otherwise, and I've never spoken to Mojo so I couldn't comment on their response. However you've just admitted that the reason for turning the bike upside down is to keep the seals lubed. Hardly what the GT85 is for is it? The whole point of open oil bath seals is that they both lubricate the stanchions but also seal the fork internals from external crap. I'm not educated enough to argue what effect that prolonged exposure to GT85 and fork oil mixture does so I'm not inclined to grumble any more there.

Mk1fan said:
I would reason that the purpose of spraying the stantions with a water replant lubricant after washing it / a wet ride, and then wiping away the excess, was to prevent water marks forming on the surface finish. If you'd like some further info on the damage water can do to an applied finish than scooch on over to the detailing forum and have a read around

I assume these are your forks for sale then as you say you don't service them in anyway? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Fox-Forx_W0QQitemZ2201604664...

.


Perhaps. However if you also do a bit of reading, you'll find that early Fox forks had a major quality issue to do with their stanchion coating, and seal quality - something which no amount of GT85'ing would solve.

That fork quoted is a typical example of a duff seal allowing crap into the fork seals, and then next the internal bushes, and wearing the fork stanchion excessively. Additionally it was a majoy flaw of the Judy and SID ranges. Indeed my Judy and SIDs only survived by regular cleaning and application of the outer seals. You would have to replace the internal bushes if you did not perform regular maintenance.

I'm sure that others would agree that you could just dry your bike lovingly with a towel afterwards, using that time to check for any seal damage pre-maintence should it require it.
Mk1Fan said:
Considering you opened with a dig about pedantry you don't seem to be very consistant through your reply.
As much as you'd like to think I'm some sort of simple tt, I've seen enough bikes and shagged ones at that to know what does and does not work. Additionally, you might notice I was lighthearted orginally, but you decided to, ironically, call me a child for arguing back with you.

I'm merely trying to help the OP by not encouraging a practise which, whilst good in its original intentions, is actually negative to what he is trying to achieve:

Would you be happy if I was to spray your (car) brake lines with GT85/WD40 to get rid of water?

If so, fine. However, knowing how arsey seals can be at the best of times, I'd hate for somebody to find out the hard way.

mk1fan

10,648 posts

232 months

Thursday 18th October 2007
quotequote all
2 replies previously you said that spraying the stantions with oil was stated in several manuals. This is an admission - not a quote.

If you haven't spoken to Mojo, then why would you imply that they would advise the same as you?

Again, I haven't mentioned anything about lubing seals up with GT85 so why do you keep banging on about doing so?

I have made no reference to your IQ or indeed the depth of your gene pool. I did not call you a child I said your reply was child like. Irony hasn't, as yet, raised it's head (unless that is you're American).

Spraying WD40 or GT85 on car brake hoses would be fine as the seals are compression fittings and the rubber outer coating has no bearing on their integrity. This does not mean that it would be ok to spray it on the discs or pads though.

As I said in my previous post, the reason I see for spraying the stantions is to prevent water marks. I reiterate that if you want to know the sort of damage water can do to an applied finish the go over to the detailing forum. It doesn't matter how swanky a coating is applied to the surface the minerals in water will cuase it damage.

Edited by mk1fan on Thursday 18th October 17:49

Promised Land

4,942 posts

216 months

Thursday 18th October 2007
quotequote all
neil_bolton said:

I've had my 66's over three years, and not ONCE have I ever gone near them to clean, service or maintain them,
then said....

neil_bolton said:
Indeed my Judy and SIDs only survived by regular cleaning and application of the outer seals. You would have to replace the internal bushes if you did not perform regular maintenance.
quite a contrast, one quote you say you don't touch them, the other with a different brand you say you had too, to keep them working ok confused

does this mean it varies upon the make of forks?

neil_bolton

17,113 posts

271 months

Thursday 18th October 2007
quotequote all
Promised Land said:
neil_bolton said:

I've had my 66's over three years, and not ONCE have I ever gone near them to clean, service or maintain them,
then said....

neil_bolton said:
Indeed my Judy and SIDs only survived by regular cleaning and application of the outer seals. You would have to replace the internal bushes if you did not perform regular maintenance.
quite a contrast, one quote you say you don't touch them, the other with a different brand you say you had too, to keep them working ok confused

does this mean it varies upon the make of forks?
And age.

Back in the day, wen Judy's and SIDs didn't exactly have the reputation for good sealing, as with many forks, you'd have all sorts of twigs, small furry animals and whatnot sucked into your forks.

Nowadays the sealing quality of decent forks is top notch Marzocchi holding top honours in the fit and forget category.