Bikes nearly there!
Discussion
Well my MTB is not far off done now, as I mentioned I got this Marin frame very cheap, still don't know what it is, one chap said it could be a hawkhill or something better, but all I know is it weighs virtually nothing and is a gorgeous tig welded alloy frame!
I then boght off ebay a nearly complete bike with a load of new components to finish it off, the frame was just a raleigh but was still pretty light it was another alloy job, so I've given the bare frame to member of family to upgrade their very cheap bike.
But the bike came with brand new Magura H33s, a really nice pair of MTB deep V wheels with some decent tyres WTB something raptor?
A cheap rear mech
and some shimano shifters (are they called sti?) plus a cane creek head set and decent bars. Oh and some Judy forks.
So now all i need is a half decent nice and light crankset, a decent top pull 34.9mm front mech, a chain and in an ideal world a decent rear mech, now I'm not really bothred about the stuff being shimano, but obviously i want the shifters to work properley, but as long as its good quality and light i'd be happy with anything, any advice? Oh and some grips! And what pedals are good? something like the V8? the bike is going to be used for trail riding through forests etc.
Also if anyone has any of the bits I need then it would be much appreciated, I'd sooner buy used than new as long as its still good stuff. But I do need help as I am having to learn mountain bikes fast here!
I then boght off ebay a nearly complete bike with a load of new components to finish it off, the frame was just a raleigh but was still pretty light it was another alloy job, so I've given the bare frame to member of family to upgrade their very cheap bike.
But the bike came with brand new Magura H33s, a really nice pair of MTB deep V wheels with some decent tyres WTB something raptor?
A cheap rear mech
and some shimano shifters (are they called sti?) plus a cane creek head set and decent bars. Oh and some Judy forks. So now all i need is a half decent nice and light crankset, a decent top pull 34.9mm front mech, a chain and in an ideal world a decent rear mech, now I'm not really bothred about the stuff being shimano, but obviously i want the shifters to work properley, but as long as its good quality and light i'd be happy with anything, any advice? Oh and some grips! And what pedals are good? something like the V8? the bike is going to be used for trail riding through forests etc.
Also if anyone has any of the bits I need then it would be much appreciated, I'd sooner buy used than new as long as its still good stuff. But I do need help as I am having to learn mountain bikes fast here!
I'd get yourself down to your local newsagents and purchase a copy of MBR - a few months of reading should help you understand whats beneath you when you ride it.
Ultimately, you've asked a lot of questions, and unfortunatly whilst many of us could suggest what you should go for, I suspect that by the sounds of it, they may be out of your price range.
So I'll suggest this:
Shimano Deore for your entire shifting and drivetrain including chainset. Anything else, just buy as good as you can afford.
Try to buy new, as 2nd hand components are alway a risk unless you know EXACTLY what you are buying.
Get friendly with your bike shop - its sounds like you may not be that up on your bike assembly (never know you may be - but your queations suggest not) and ask their advice - and if you buy from them, they'll happily impart their wisdom.
At the end of the day, buying cheap of Ebay etc is only cheap if you know EXACTLY what you are doing
Ultimately, you've asked a lot of questions, and unfortunatly whilst many of us could suggest what you should go for, I suspect that by the sounds of it, they may be out of your price range.
So I'll suggest this:
Shimano Deore for your entire shifting and drivetrain including chainset. Anything else, just buy as good as you can afford.
Try to buy new, as 2nd hand components are alway a risk unless you know EXACTLY what you are buying.
Get friendly with your bike shop - its sounds like you may not be that up on your bike assembly (never know you may be - but your queations suggest not) and ask their advice - and if you buy from them, they'll happily impart their wisdom.
At the end of the day, buying cheap of Ebay etc is only cheap if you know EXACTLY what you are doing
Yes good advice there, its hard to put in to words, assembly is no problem, I am actually an engineer and run a classic car restoration business, grew up with BMX and racing bikes, and making cheap stuff fit etc (e.g. gears on a bmx, non shimano rear mech on sti levers)
The problem I have more than anything else is modern terminology, and the up to date products, plus mountain bikes have never been my thing, I am getting there and have managed to build a lovely bike so far for well under a hundred pounds, I am just very thrifty on price!
Compatibility issues don't really scare me as I am very good at adapting things, but one thing that has shocked me are the different bb designs and cranksets, it seems that square drive is very last decade, and a lot are on this isis/splined drive.
Oliver
The problem I have more than anything else is modern terminology, and the up to date products, plus mountain bikes have never been my thing, I am getting there and have managed to build a lovely bike so far for well under a hundred pounds, I am just very thrifty on price!
Compatibility issues don't really scare me as I am very good at adapting things, but one thing that has shocked me are the different bb designs and cranksets, it seems that square drive is very last decade, and a lot are on this isis/splined drive.
Oliver
I'm sure you appreciate the extra surface area an Splined drive gives, as an engineer
This is personal choice though really - square tapers do work as long as they are tight and kept tight, but they are inherently flawed in that they want to force themselves loose. ISIS or Shimano spline? Personal choice again dependant on which chainset/bottom bracket you wish to use, no "best" in my opinion, but Shimano is a good one stop shop and as Neil recommended, Deore is as good a starting point as any. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and go with one thing just to see how it works out for you - I've had 4 different types on 4 different bikes at once before (Tapered, Isis, Octalink and three piece) - why? mainly what was on offer at the time and the use to which I put them.
This is personal choice though really - square tapers do work as long as they are tight and kept tight, but they are inherently flawed in that they want to force themselves loose. ISIS or Shimano spline? Personal choice again dependant on which chainset/bottom bracket you wish to use, no "best" in my opinion, but Shimano is a good one stop shop and as Neil recommended, Deore is as good a starting point as any. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and go with one thing just to see how it works out for you - I've had 4 different types on 4 different bikes at once before (Tapered, Isis, Octalink and three piece) - why? mainly what was on offer at the time and the use to which I put them.
For pedals, you might want to get a pair of clipless/cage combos - these are SPDs within a cage, so you don't have to wear SPD shoes, but have the option to use them. I learnt on VP133s and still have a pair - they're tough but not light and Chainreaction does them for about 20quid a pair. Shimano also make them - M545 I think.
wildoliver said:
Making cheap stuff fit etc (e.g. non shimano rear mech on sti levers)
The problem I have more than anything else is modern terminology, and the up to date products, plus mountain bikes have never been my thing, I am getting there and have managed to build a lovely bike so far for well under a hundred pounds, I am just very thrifty on price!
Compatibility issues don't really scare me as I am very good at adapting things, but one thing that has shocked me are the different bb designs and cranksets, it seems that square drive is very last decade, and a lot are on this isis/splined drive.
Oliver
The problem I have more than anything else is modern terminology, and the up to date products, plus mountain bikes have never been my thing, I am getting there and have managed to build a lovely bike so far for well under a hundred pounds, I am just very thrifty on price!
Compatibility issues don't really scare me as I am very good at adapting things, but one thing that has shocked me are the different bb designs and cranksets, it seems that square drive is very last decade, and a lot are on this isis/splined drive.
Oliver
To be completely honest with you, you can buy a complete Deore groupset off Ebay for £129 plus P+P and the time saved over all the pissing about you'll end up doing trying to make all your higgledy piggledy stuff fit is best saved actually riding the thing.
Additionally, you'll find that it'll work soooooooo much better than if you try and make a cheap shitty deraillier work with a set of old STI levers (STI was dropped in about 1995 or so)...
When it comes to drivetrain, like Beyond Rational said, you need to bite the bullet, as its a minefield.
Trust us, we've been doing it for yonks.
Also, could I also point out one thing (and don't take this the wrong way):
Whenever anyone comes into a bike shop and proclaims to the staff that they are an engineer when asking for something wierd, or insisting that something shouldn't be like that, they are usually a nightmare.
In all my years of working in bike shops, whenever someone has gone against our advice, they also end up sheepishly returning a few days later with a part they tried to fit, or just bringing the bike in for us to rectify the problem.
The greatest example of this is the old chain wear problem: A rider lets his chain stretch and this subsequently 'hooks' all the chainring and cassette teeth, and while the old chain works fine on the worn cassette and chain, as soon as you put a new chain on, bam! it slips as soon as any torque is put on it.
Of course, Mr Engineer comes in complaining we sold him a duff chain, and we almost count the seconds down until we hear "Well, I'm an engineer and it shouldn't happen like that"...
Cue us sighing quietly, and settling in for an ever escalating argument - we don't know the real technical reason behind it happening, but it just 'does' - yet these people won't take no for an answer...
So, I hope you can consider our advice when we suggest biting the bullet - self-builds - just like self build computers, always end up more expensive when you realise that the penny pinching on 'that' part has left what should be a great bike, an absolute mare! (Just like the PSU I tried to skimp on, and now I have a PC that keeps crashing...)
Neil
Hi Neil, totally understand where your coming from, and to be honest tend to agree with you, I really cannot afford to buy a groupset, for a start groupsets include shifters and brakes from memory don't they?
I've included a pic of my shifters, they are shimano but I don't know what model, I also don't really care, they match the rear cassette being 7 speed, so I really just need a rear mech to match both the cassette and shifters and a front mech (thinking of XT all round truth be told) to match the 3 speed shifter I have for the front.
Crank wise I am thinking of something along the lines of FSA, with isis drive, pedal wise I will just go to the bike shop and go with their reccomendation, and mechs thinking of Xt front and back, is that going to be ok?
pics of shifters.
I've included a pic of my shifters, they are shimano but I don't know what model, I also don't really care, they match the rear cassette being 7 speed, so I really just need a rear mech to match both the cassette and shifters and a front mech (thinking of XT all round truth be told) to match the 3 speed shifter I have for the front.
Crank wise I am thinking of something along the lines of FSA, with isis drive, pedal wise I will just go to the bike shop and go with their reccomendation, and mechs thinking of Xt front and back, is that going to be ok?
pics of shifters.
wildoliver said:
Hi Neil, totally understand where your coming from, and to be honest tend to agree with you, I really cannot afford to buy a groupset, for a start groupsets include shifters and brakes from memory don't they?
I've included a pic of my shifters, they are shimano but I don't know what model, I also don't really care, they match the rear cassette being 7 speed, so I really just need a rear mech to match both the cassette and shifters and a front mech (thinking of XT all round truth be told) to match the 3 speed shifter I have for the front.
Crank wise I am thinking of something along the lines of FSA, with isis drive, pedal wise I will just go to the bike shop and go with their reccomendation, and mechs thinking of Xt front and back, is that going to be ok?
pics of shifters.
I've included a pic of my shifters, they are shimano but I don't know what model, I also don't really care, they match the rear cassette being 7 speed, so I really just need a rear mech to match both the cassette and shifters and a front mech (thinking of XT all round truth be told) to match the 3 speed shifter I have for the front.
Crank wise I am thinking of something along the lines of FSA, with isis drive, pedal wise I will just go to the bike shop and go with their reccomendation, and mechs thinking of Xt front and back, is that going to be ok?
pics of shifters.
If you can afford the mechs, then yes, they will be fine, deraillers don't do the indexing, the shifters do.
One thing to note though, be wary of what chainset you get - 7 and 8 speed chain, chains and cassettes work togther, but 9spd only really works with 9spd stuff - its all to do with the width of the 9 spd chain.
Additionally:
Try and get a medium length rear deraillier, as the long versions will be too long for a 7spd block,
Don't buy a 9spd front deraillier, as most likely, the seven spd chain won't fit though it, and also finally, 9 spd front deraillers are deeper in their cage length.
Your shifters look like generic later version rapidfire plus - most likely Alivio or something similar - ok when new, but don't last long when used regularly off road. You pays your money...
BUT Groupsets are exactly that, complete groupsets containing everything that the range includes - brakes, levers, shifters etc...so the deore one is a steal when you consider you'll get full 9spd, decent quality kit, and you can always flog the brakes on Ebay - you'll get £20 back.
So working that possibly you £130 minus £20 for flogging the brakes and levers on Ebay, you'd be paying £110 for EVERYTHING including the derailliers, chainset and BB.
Factor in that you'll pay for XT rear and front derailliers at £40 and £20 respectively plus £60 and £20 for the basic FSA chainset and BB, you've instantly hit £120 before you've got anywhere, yet, you'll still not have any of the benefits of buying XT - it'll still feel like a tractor when shifting (believe me - try newer 9spd stuff and you'll see what I mean).
Stop mucking about and buy the groupset - IT IS SO MUCH CHEAPER AND EASIER - I will bet money you spend more if you don't.
Edited by neil_cardiff on Wednesday 29th November 10:09
I'm just wondering now if the the freehub will take a 8/9spd cas. if the rest is 7spd??? (This is so much easier in real life )
Re: chainslip + engineers - the answer is that a stretched chain wears the teeth to match the stretched chain so the distance between the centres of the tooths become greater - so a new chain with the correct pitch can no longer mesh with the now greater pitch of the cogs and off she comes.
) Re: chainslip + engineers - the answer is that a stretched chain wears the teeth to match the stretched chain so the distance between the centres of the tooths become greater - so a new chain with the correct pitch can no longer mesh with the now greater pitch of the cogs and off she comes.
beyond rational said:
I'm just wondering now if the the freehub will take a 8/9spd cas. if the rest is 7spd??? (This is so much easier in real life )
)I did wonder that, but then again, possibly, seeing as most wheels and bikes now come with 8spd freehubs, it may already be 8/9spd but the chap didn't realise? Can Oliver confirm this?
beyond rational said:
Re: chainslip + engineers - the answer is that a stretched chain wears the teeth to match the stretched chain so the distance between the centres of the tooths become greater - so a new chain with the correct pitch can no longer mesh with the now greater pitch of the cogs and off she comes.
I knew the mechanics behind it (as do you) but its a difficult one to explain to some people if they try and apply certain learned engineering principles to it wildoliver said:
The rear hub is the screw on cassete design, not the modern slide on individual gears kind.
Oliver
Oliver
Bugger.
Thats going to seriously limit your options - screw on Shimano freewheels are becoming rarer by the year as they get phased out.
I'd be not bothering with XT derailliers in this instance then if thats the level of kit you have, after all weight isn't an issue. Anything above Deore would be wasted on this bike if by the sounds of it the wheels are rather old school and cheap (hence the screw on body).
Sorry to break it to you, but your cheap bits may cause you grief in the long run as you struggle to get things to work together...!
TBH the wheels are really light, They are shimano Hubs, and I think they have been built on to nice modern rims, and sadly yes weight is an issue.
What I really want is the ability to upgrade the hubs at a later date, probably to take disk brakes too, so i need a rear mech that is compatible with what I'm after, I realise 7-8 and 9 speed chains are different as the 9 speed is thinner hence different front mech, So i'd eventually be upgrading probably to 8 speed slide on gears (what is the proper name please?)
So I'm now here:
medium cage xt rear mech to suit 8 speed.
Xt top pull 34.9mm front mech to suit 7-8 speed.
And go to bike shop and see what I like crank wise (dont want heavy).
Please understand I'm not being difficult, and I know in an ideal world I should go to my bike shop and give them between £500-£3000 and ask them to build me what I want new, but this bike is nearly there and has so far only cost me £83, and is way above what i could afford new, for me the time to start upgrading rear hubs etc is later after 6 months or so, the place i need help is making sure I'm not having to replace nearly new equipment to match the upgrades!
What I really want is the ability to upgrade the hubs at a later date, probably to take disk brakes too, so i need a rear mech that is compatible with what I'm after, I realise 7-8 and 9 speed chains are different as the 9 speed is thinner hence different front mech, So i'd eventually be upgrading probably to 8 speed slide on gears (what is the proper name please?)
So I'm now here:
medium cage xt rear mech to suit 8 speed.
Xt top pull 34.9mm front mech to suit 7-8 speed.
And go to bike shop and see what I like crank wise (dont want heavy).
Please understand I'm not being difficult, and I know in an ideal world I should go to my bike shop and give them between £500-£3000 and ask them to build me what I want new, but this bike is nearly there and has so far only cost me £83, and is way above what i could afford new, for me the time to start upgrading rear hubs etc is later after 6 months or so, the place i need help is making sure I'm not having to replace nearly new equipment to match the upgrades!
wildoliver said:
TBH the wheels are really light, They are shimano Hubs, and I think they have been built on to nice modern rims, and sadly yes weight is an issue.
What I really want is the ability to upgrade the hubs at a later date, probably to take disk brakes too, so i need a rear mech that is compatible with what I'm after, I realise 7-8 and 9 speed chains are different as the 9 speed is thinner hence different front mech, So i'd eventually be upgrading probably to 8 speed slide on gears (what is the proper name please?)
So I'm now here:
medium cage xt rear mech to suit 8 speed.
Xt top pull 34.9mm front mech to suit 7-8 speed.
And go to bike shop and see what I like crank wise (dont want heavy).
Please understand I'm not being difficult, and I know in an ideal world I should go to my bike shop and give them between £500-£3000 and ask them to build me what I want new, but this bike is nearly there and has so far only cost me £83, and is way above what i could afford new, for me the time to start upgrading rear hubs etc is later after 6 months or so, the place i need help is making sure I'm not having to replace nearly new equipment to match the upgrades!
What I really want is the ability to upgrade the hubs at a later date, probably to take disk brakes too, so i need a rear mech that is compatible with what I'm after, I realise 7-8 and 9 speed chains are different as the 9 speed is thinner hence different front mech, So i'd eventually be upgrading probably to 8 speed slide on gears (what is the proper name please?)
So I'm now here:
medium cage xt rear mech to suit 8 speed.
Xt top pull 34.9mm front mech to suit 7-8 speed.
And go to bike shop and see what I like crank wise (dont want heavy).
Please understand I'm not being difficult, and I know in an ideal world I should go to my bike shop and give them between £500-£3000 and ask them to build me what I want new, but this bike is nearly there and has so far only cost me £83, and is way above what i could afford new, for me the time to start upgrading rear hubs etc is later after 6 months or so, the place i need help is making sure I'm not having to replace nearly new equipment to match the upgrades!
*sigh*
Oliver. Forget those wheels. If they have a screw on hub, yet are shimano hubs, then I can guarantee that the wheelset is a basic one. The rims won't be all that, and to be honest absoutely not worth going through the expense of spending £30 labour per wheel and then the actual hub cost as well just to save a buck or two.
Buy a set of Mavic CrossRides - £110 off Ebay. Light, well built, good weight, and stunning value for money. This will be cheaper than 'upgrading' your hubs.
The name you are looking for is a 'Cassette' system, whereupon you have a hub that accepts a freehub, and then you slide a cassette onto the freehub.
If you think those wheels are light, I'd be wandering down to a bike shop and asking to a have a look at some properly built wheels on Hope and Mavic - that should seal it for you. I know EXACTLY which wheels you have - you have the Rigida V Rim wheels in black, a cheap and nasty wheel found on basic £200 Halford specials, and whilst they'll do the job, they are not that good. I know my wheels having sold bikes for many years, and most wheels come out of the same factory, for about 90 pence each cost to make.
Please please please take mine and indeed our advice when we say that you are going to need to reconsider this project if you are looking to upgrade later without replacing parts at a later date:
If you want to move to 8 speed, you are going to need new shifters, a new chain, and a casette. Theres £70 straight away.
If you want to upgrade your hubs, you are going to need to buy hubs (Deore at £50 for a pair inc. freehub), a new cassette (if you can find a 7spd anymore) and pay someone to build them (Do NOT build them yourself, its a mare) and that'll be at least £30 per wheel thanks very much. So call it £150 in all ish...
Straight away, you can see the cost ramping up.
If you just get the right bits as I've suggested in the first place, you'll avoid all this.
A set of Mavic Crossrides (which come with disc ready CNC's hubs) and a Deore Groupset, and you've a tasty bike.
I ride CrossRides, as does PDV6 on our nice fancy Trek Y bikes, and they work a treat - so I think they would be your bargain of the century too.
I know you are trying to do this on the cheap and you are not trying to be difficult, but sometimes you just cant do it - please believe me!
ETA don't forget all the tools you'll be having to buy - freewheels use different adaptors to cassettes, etc etc...
Edited by neil_cardiff on Wednesday 29th November 11:14
Edited by neil_cardiff on Wednesday 29th November 11:16
wildoliver said:
The wheels are blue velocity deep v.
Thats a 650c wheelset off a Tri bike/Time Trail bike.
They wont fit on a mountain bike - or not very well...
No wonder its a screw on hub, it's built to accept a road bike screw on cassette...
EDITED TO ADD: I've dug about a bit, it seems they do 26" rims too, so pardon my mistake. However, at 550grams for the rim in anodised finish, they are average weight rather than lightweight.
Still my point holds regarding the rebuilding of them for upgrading to a freehub bodied hub and the ability to take discs...
Edited by neil_cardiff on Wednesday 29th November 12:06
Oliver, wish i'd have known on sunday, I could have had a chat with you!
As for the wheels - yes, they may seem light now but as has been said they are not particularly high quality, they do not have eye-letted rims, and look like single gauge ( as opposed to butted) spokes.
Go into a shop and have a shufty at some nice mavix XC rims built on hope Pro II hubs, thats light.
The hub, yes to me that looks like a screw on freewheel, which limits you to 7spd only.
A groupset really, really, is good value.... If you can't afford it now, how about just don't buy anything, ride the bike as is, and upgrade later.
Try not to get addicted, its a very bad thing, my bikes are worth around 4 times my car...
''My names simon, and im addicted to XTR''...
Oh and as for cranks, on a bike like this I'd reccomend square taper.
The ultimate is External bearings, however these are more £££.
Isis are generally better for DH/jump bikes, square taper for XC bikes. Reason, ISIS bbs have a stronger axles and interface, but very small bearings, thus bearings are the weak point.
Tapered, the other way round, bearings are much longer lasting, which on an XC bike where wear comes from simple crank revolutions, this is preferable.
As for the wheels - yes, they may seem light now but as has been said they are not particularly high quality, they do not have eye-letted rims, and look like single gauge ( as opposed to butted) spokes.
Go into a shop and have a shufty at some nice mavix XC rims built on hope Pro II hubs, thats light.
The hub, yes to me that looks like a screw on freewheel, which limits you to 7spd only.
A groupset really, really, is good value.... If you can't afford it now, how about just don't buy anything, ride the bike as is, and upgrade later.
Try not to get addicted, its a very bad thing, my bikes are worth around 4 times my car...
''My names simon, and im addicted to XTR''...
Oh and as for cranks, on a bike like this I'd reccomend square taper.
The ultimate is External bearings, however these are more £££.
Isis are generally better for DH/jump bikes, square taper for XC bikes. Reason, ISIS bbs have a stronger axles and interface, but very small bearings, thus bearings are the weak point.
Tapered, the other way round, bearings are much longer lasting, which on an XC bike where wear comes from simple crank revolutions, this is preferable.
Edited by snotrag on Wednesday 29th November 12:55
Edited by snotrag on Wednesday 29th November 12:57
Well based on that I need isis, as its being used for downhill.
And I realise they aren't the dogs danglies of wheels but they aren't bad and will certainly do for a while.
I'm nearly positive they are cassette hubs not screw on. I can see the back end of the splines behind the gears.
And I cant ride it as it is as it doesn't have a crank/front mech or chain. hence me needing these parts.
And I realise they aren't the dogs danglies of wheels but they aren't bad and will certainly do for a while.
I'm nearly positive they are cassette hubs not screw on. I can see the back end of the splines behind the gears.
And I cant ride it as it is as it doesn't have a crank/front mech or chain. hence me needing these parts.
This is baffling me. 
If you do downhill on what you've got, the bearings in the bottom bracket will be one of the last things to worry about. This never will be a downhill machine - lightwieght/cheap/downhill do not go together!
I don't want to be down on you because this bike with deore and a lightwheel set is the start of a solid XC bike, but DH it aint.
If you do downhill on what you've got, the bearings in the bottom bracket will be one of the last things to worry about. This never will be a downhill machine - lightwieght/cheap/downhill do not go together!
I don't want to be down on you because this bike with deore and a lightwheel set is the start of a solid XC bike, but DH it aint.
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