Cycling fitness - what am I missing?!

[ian in lancs]

I'm 65, 81kg and Resting HR of 53.

Garmin reckons I have a running VO2 of 41 and a Cycling VO2 of 45.

Running I'm 125bpm +/- 5 bpm 7:45/km for a 5km flat run (as fast as my old legs will go now...)

Cycling I'm 106bpm avg, 24kmh avg, 145w avg for an undulating/flatish 450m total ascent over 78km road bike ride.

My HR Zones based on 220-age and RHR are

Z5 - 145-155 max HR
Z4 - 135-145
Z3 - 124-135
Z2 - 114-124
Z1 - 104-114

Other HR zone calcs all push the numbers higher for a given zone by 5-10bpm.

For the 78km ride above Garmin credit me with measly 4 intensity minutes (2h 15m in Z1 and 6m in Z2) on a ride that took me 3h 12m.

What is wrong?

Are the HR zones wrong?
What HR zone do others ride in?

Garmin intensity minutes are set to time in Z2 and Z3; Fat burning and Aerobic respectively - is that right?

NHS use the terms moderate (Z2?) and intense (Z3?) and suggest min 150 moderate mins week. I'd have to ride a lot (more distance and much faster) to even get close. That can't be right so Im assuming I've got something wrong somehow?

Edited by ian in lancs on Sunday 18th August 19:46

[Master Bean]

Pedal more. Or something.

[Harpoon]

If it helps, here are some stat's from my power meter on a longer ride last Saturday. Not the fastest pace as we had a horrible head wind from about 60km in and fitness is down a bit after a week in France eating my own body weight in pastries and patisserie.



Garmin reports 41 minutes moderate and 340 minutes vigorous.

[smn159]

Ignore 220-age. It might work at a population level but it can be wildly inaccurate for individuals.

Do a proper HR Max test and go from there

[ian in lancs]

Thanks, this is mine... I think the FTP figure is wrong though - i've never tested it




Do you have the HR zone version?

[smn159]

That looks like Strava, which doesn't allow different HR zones for running and cycling.

Cycling HR is lower than running for the same perceived effort level, so that will skew your zones as well.

[ian in lancs]

Garmin histograms

[smn159]

It's likely that your zones aren't set right. For running, there is a rough guide using breathing patterns that can give a feel for if you're in the right zone. For a Zone 2 you should be able to maintain an easy 3 in / 3 out breathing pattern and hold a conversation in whole sentences. For zone 3 / tempo your breathing will likely be 2 in / 2 out with conversation possible in short bursts and for threshold your breathing will be 1 in / 1 out with only a couple of brief words possible

My main focus is running so haven't tried this on a bike, but likely similar.

[Slowboathome]

I believe that for running you calculate your HR zones by establishing your actual maximum HR. To establish your maximum HR you run up a hill as fast as you can. Do this 3 times and measure your maximum HR on the final attempt.

Maybe you could do something similar on a gym bike.

I agree with the earlier post that 220-age isn't helpful. Using that formula would give me a max of 160. My actual maximum HR is 180.

[Robertb]

What are you looking to achieve OP? Faster speeds, loss of weight etc?

I can highly recommend Fast After 50 by Joe Friel. Even though some of the book is a little redundant unless you are working towards particular race dates, the knowledge and advice in it is great, as it tells you what happens to your physiology as you age and what you can do about it.

[ian in lancs]

Thanks everyone for your inputs.

Robertb said:

What are you looking to achieve OP? Faster speeds, loss of weight etc?

I can highly recommend Fast After 50 by Joe Friel. Even though some of the book is a little redundant unless you are working towards particular race dates, the knowledge and advice in it is great, as it tells you what happens to your physiology as you age and what you can do about it.

Maintain or improve fitness in the face of age related degradation! Also a lot of advice is related to zones hence a desire to get them rightish.


I’ll check out the book, thanks

[ian in lancs]

I’ve also found this paper that, as posters above, challenges 220-age formula to predict MaxHR.

The best alternative they conclude is HRmax=205.8-0.685(age) which interestingly looks more like it.

Edited by ian in lancs on Sunday 18th August 19:49

[ian in lancs]

Using HRmax=205.8-0.685(age) gives the following



More like it but Z1 and Z2 are quite easy for cycling Z3 is where I’d be running.

[thisnameistaken]

You’re clearly fit so why mess around with arbitrary max hr formulas and just go and find your max hr. Do it for cycling and running as the cycling will be slightly lower. See how they align with the data you already have.

[popeyewhite]

smn159 said:

Cycling HR is lower than running for the same perceived effort level, so that will skew your zones as well.

If HR is lower cycling that means oxygen distribution is less which means less muscle is being used which means it should feel easier. Have I overlooked something?

[Robertb]

popeyewhite said:

If HR is lower cycling that means oxygen distribution is less which means less muscle is being used which means it should feel easier. Have I overlooked something?

There is a wider range of muscles used for running so oxygen requirement is higher.

Another factor is heat management… you stay cooler on the bike at speed, heart rate rises when you are warmer.

All that said, running or cycling at lactate threshold feels equally bad in my experience!

[Robertb]

ian in lancs said:

Maintain or improve fitness in the face of age related degradation! Also a lot of advice is related to zones hence a desire to get them rightish.


I’ll check out the book, thanks

If you’re interested in training zones check out the zones and descriptions by Dr Paul Coggan. Fascinating stuff and has really helped me.

Joe Friel’s book will by right up your street by the sound of it.

[popeyewhite]

Robertb said:

There is a wider range of muscles used for running so oxygen requirement is higher.

Yes that's my point, obviously not made very well!

Robertb said:

Another factor is heat management… you stay cooler on the bike at speed, heart rate rises when you are warmer.

That's true and it's dependent on ambient temps as well I imagine. But would that effect RPE? I've done a few half marathons on 25+c and not really suffered until the last few miles.

Robertb said:

All that said, running or cycling at lactate threshold feels equally bad in my experience!

Lol agreed.

[okgo]

thisnameistaken said:

You’re clearly fit so why mess around with arbitrary max hr formulas and just go and find your max hr. Do it for cycling and running as the cycling will be slightly lower. See how they align with the data you already have.

Basically this. Apart from the different max. Not likely true.


Your formula above is laughably bad as is 220-age.

[Siao]

ian in lancs said:

I'm 65, 81kg and Resting HR of 53.

Garmin reckons I have a running VO2 of 41 and a Cycling VO2 of 45.

Running I'm 125bpm +/- 5 bpm 7:45/km for a 5km flat run (as fast as my old legs will go now...)

Cycling I'm 106bpm avg, 24kmh avg, 145w avg for an undulating/flatish 450m total ascent over 78km road bike ride.

My HR Zones based on 220-age and RHR are

Z5 - 145-155 max HR
Z4 - 135-145
Z3 - 124-135
Z2 - 114-124
Z1 - 104-114

Other HR zone calcs all push the numbers higher for a given zone by 5-10bpm.

For the 78km ride above Garmin credit me with measly 4 intensity minutes (2h 15m in Z1 and 6m in Z2) on a ride that took me 3h 12m.

What is wrong?

Are the HR zones wrong?
What HR zone do others ride in?

Garmin intensity minutes are set to time in Z2 and Z3; Fat burning and Aerobic respectively - is that right?

NHS use the terms moderate (Z2?) and intense (Z3?) and suggest min 150 moderate mins week. I'd have to ride a lot (more distance and much faster) to even get close. That can't be right so Im assuming I've got something wrong somehow?

Edited by ian in lancs on Sunday 18th August 19:46

At the risk of sounding silly, have you considered that it could be wrong readings, dirty sensors, etc.? It is described in Garmin's page: https://support.garmin.com/en-GB/?faq=xQwjQjzUew4B...