MTB for a roadie vol 3: sort my brain out!
Discussion
Vol 2 was back in April-July 2022 when we all helped to choose my new bike and I got the first couple of rides on it.
Shortly afterwards, my cycling stopped for a good while in due to medicine-induced depression, followed by a long series of (basically minor) illnesses, and it ended up parked in the garage until recently. But now I'm riding regularly again and the roads are covered in rubbish/water/ice/salt, I've dug it back out as a nice change from Zwift (which was the point of trying MTB in the first place).
BUT... I'm now being held back by my stupid brain from enjoying chunks of the riding I'd like to do in the woods.
On my road bike, I love downhills. The steeper/faster, the better (so long as I know there's no hairpins, or a giveway at the bottom!). Road rides will usually see something like 40-42mph as max speed. Gradient is not a worry, it's a joy
But off-road, if I meet any downhill slope that's maybe 8 to10% gradient or more, my brain is utterly convinced that Very Bad Things Will Happen if I ride down it at any speed - or at all, sometimes. Probably all my limbs will fall off while my head explodes. And this is just standard trail stuff, no lumps, bumps, jumps, drops etc. The OTB crash that caused me to swap to a LLS/29er bike was on a drop, and I've done bigger since with no probs, so I'm pretty certain it's not related to that.
Last time out, I found a nice short bit of downhill 10%-ish rough/disused firetrail, leading onto a nice flat open logging road so a perfect run-out. A bit loose shale/rocky and leafy under wheel but basically nothing bad at all, the same as most of the trails I'm riding.
So I thought I'd try sessioning it - starting near the bottom and getting a bit higher each time. Didn't work: as soon as I was high enough to get any speed, I was braking back down to a crawl.
Then I tried starting above it, where the slope is gentler (surface identical mix), figuring I'd carry some speed in and get over it. Absolutely fine, riding at a reasonable speed... until I get to the steeper bit and my brain shouts again.
Top speeds on the generally flowing up-and-down pump-track-like bits of trail are 22-23mph which feels fairly decent... but my brain is fitted with some sort of tilt switch and I'd like to get rid of it!
Any ideas???
Shortly afterwards, my cycling stopped for a good while in due to medicine-induced depression, followed by a long series of (basically minor) illnesses, and it ended up parked in the garage until recently. But now I'm riding regularly again and the roads are covered in rubbish/water/ice/salt, I've dug it back out as a nice change from Zwift (which was the point of trying MTB in the first place).
BUT... I'm now being held back by my stupid brain from enjoying chunks of the riding I'd like to do in the woods.
On my road bike, I love downhills. The steeper/faster, the better (so long as I know there's no hairpins, or a giveway at the bottom!). Road rides will usually see something like 40-42mph as max speed. Gradient is not a worry, it's a joy
But off-road, if I meet any downhill slope that's maybe 8 to10% gradient or more, my brain is utterly convinced that Very Bad Things Will Happen if I ride down it at any speed - or at all, sometimes. Probably all my limbs will fall off while my head explodes. And this is just standard trail stuff, no lumps, bumps, jumps, drops etc. The OTB crash that caused me to swap to a LLS/29er bike was on a drop, and I've done bigger since with no probs, so I'm pretty certain it's not related to that.
Last time out, I found a nice short bit of downhill 10%-ish rough/disused firetrail, leading onto a nice flat open logging road so a perfect run-out. A bit loose shale/rocky and leafy under wheel but basically nothing bad at all, the same as most of the trails I'm riding.
So I thought I'd try sessioning it - starting near the bottom and getting a bit higher each time. Didn't work: as soon as I was high enough to get any speed, I was braking back down to a crawl.
Then I tried starting above it, where the slope is gentler (surface identical mix), figuring I'd carry some speed in and get over it. Absolutely fine, riding at a reasonable speed... until I get to the steeper bit and my brain shouts again.
Top speeds on the generally flowing up-and-down pump-track-like bits of trail are 22-23mph which feels fairly decent... but my brain is fitted with some sort of tilt switch and I'd like to get rid of it!
Any ideas???
Have you thought about having a coaching session?
I always MTBed, but then a car crash caused whiplash so I cycled road for 2 years.
I went back to MTB but kept scaring myself and/or crashing.
I had a couple of coaching sessions and it made a huge difference as they pointed out some technique problems I had that was causing me to crash or nearly crash. They blamed road riding!
I always MTBed, but then a car crash caused whiplash so I cycled road for 2 years.
I went back to MTB but kept scaring myself and/or crashing.
I had a couple of coaching sessions and it made a huge difference as they pointed out some technique problems I had that was causing me to crash or nearly crash. They blamed road riding!
Really difficult to diagnose the problem remotely so perhaps getting proper training one to one will help.
Generally, a mental block makes matter worse even though it's based on self-preservation.
If your brain says no (or even maybe) then you tense up without realising, which in turn makes the trail "obstacle" worse than it is. And then the brain learns that and makes you even more tense.
To break that cycle and getting loose on the bike there are tips that a good tutor will share.
Going "progressive" is the obvious one (not sure it has worked so far).
Also, visualisation can help.
There might be a technical issue too?
Are you positioned as centrally as possible on the bike? This is the main benefit of LLS compared to old school MTBs where you had to hang out the back and lose steering control.
Do you drop your heels? Light hands / strong feet?
Is your CoG low enough?
Visual system: do you look at the obstacle when you're on it or do you look past it?
How's your breathing? (that's a massive one but often overlooked, focusing on your breathing is a great way to relax, it's very easy to unconsciously "stop" breathing properly when stressed).
Generally, a mental block makes matter worse even though it's based on self-preservation.
If your brain says no (or even maybe) then you tense up without realising, which in turn makes the trail "obstacle" worse than it is. And then the brain learns that and makes you even more tense.
To break that cycle and getting loose on the bike there are tips that a good tutor will share.
Going "progressive" is the obvious one (not sure it has worked so far).
Also, visualisation can help.
There might be a technical issue too?
Are you positioned as centrally as possible on the bike? This is the main benefit of LLS compared to old school MTBs where you had to hang out the back and lose steering control.
Do you drop your heels? Light hands / strong feet?
Is your CoG low enough?
Visual system: do you look at the obstacle when you're on it or do you look past it?
How's your breathing? (that's a massive one but often overlooked, focusing on your breathing is a great way to relax, it's very easy to unconsciously "stop" breathing properly when stressed).
Edited by nickfrog on Saturday 3rd February 06:25
Coaching is definitely the answer here.
Beware though, not all mtb coaches are equal... I've seen a few in action that were not only crap, but their advice was wrong. It's very easy to set up as one and being good on a bike does not necessarily mean you're a good coach.
The issue with steep and fast DH sections is that yes they are scary and yes you can seriously hurt yourself. That fear is perfectly normal.
However, the problem is fear creates possibly the worst riding position for DH - knees tucked against the top tube, arms straight, death grip, and arse hugging the rear tyre.
As soon as that position is adopted, it feels faster, out of control, and risks becoming a self fulfilling profecy.
You're only going to feel comfortable by maintaining the right posture... Which is only achievable by coaching really.
I can thoroughly recommend Tony Doyle who runs UK BIKE Skills. He has his own training ground too, with every possible feature on it.
Beware though, not all mtb coaches are equal... I've seen a few in action that were not only crap, but their advice was wrong. It's very easy to set up as one and being good on a bike does not necessarily mean you're a good coach.
The issue with steep and fast DH sections is that yes they are scary and yes you can seriously hurt yourself. That fear is perfectly normal.
However, the problem is fear creates possibly the worst riding position for DH - knees tucked against the top tube, arms straight, death grip, and arse hugging the rear tyre.
As soon as that position is adopted, it feels faster, out of control, and risks becoming a self fulfilling profecy.
You're only going to feel comfortable by maintaining the right posture... Which is only achievable by coaching really.
I can thoroughly recommend Tony Doyle who runs UK BIKE Skills. He has his own training ground too, with every possible feature on it.
TGCOTF-dewey said:
The issue with steep and fast DH sections is that yes they are scary and yes you can seriously hurt yourself. That fear is perfectly normal.
If this was a problem with steep and fast sections, I'd be less concerned... you'd all be amazed if I posted a picture of the sort of thing I'm on about - it's just trail going downwards, nothing that you'd even notice if your brain was working right.I did have some coaching back in May '22 but I think I've lost quite a lot of the benefit by immediately stopping riding for a year or so afterwards! After some basics, we focused on drops and berms - drops as that was what sent me OTB and berms as I just had no idea how to tackle them. I'm still happy with small drops, and I'm starting to ride, rather than tip-toe, around berms again now as I remember/practice what I learnt.
So I think I agree it'd be worth another investment into training rather than shiny bike bits
Fear of crashing is perfectly rational. If you think about it, it's actually an intrinsic self preservation mechanism, keeping you from injuring yourself.
One great thing about MTB is sessioning obstacles & features. Riders commonly repeat challenging stuff until the foo sinks in. I reckon you're onto the right idea with either coaching or just doing something scary over & over until it isn't scary any more.
One great thing about MTB is sessioning obstacles & features. Riders commonly repeat challenging stuff until the foo sinks in. I reckon you're onto the right idea with either coaching or just doing something scary over & over until it isn't scary any more.
Best advise I ever heard was back in the 90s from Paul Hinton. He said " if you look at a trail that’s intimidating, just focus on the shape of it, how fast would you ride it, if it was flat? You’d not be trying to brake to a crawl, you’d be leaning the bike over and maintaining some speed."
Basically braking complete upsets your position on the bike on a 10 degree slope. Just ride it like it’s flat and stop trying yo brake to a stop, just gently control you r speed but keep your speed up, speed really is your friend.
Basically braking complete upsets your position on the bike on a 10 degree slope. Just ride it like it’s flat and stop trying yo brake to a stop, just gently control you r speed but keep your speed up, speed really is your friend.
WestyCarl said:
Sounds obvious but look down the trail and where you want to go (not at the trees you are passing close by 
)
Every pro I've ever asked has said, the faster you go, the further you need to look ahead.)Drops specifically work on two techniques. Slow or small, push the bike out in front of you as the front wheel gets to the edge, This stops the bike diving. Fast & big, hold on, keep it rubber side down as best you can.
President Merkin said:
Every pro I've ever asked has said, the faster you go, the further you need to look ahead.
Yes, when I am go fast (for me 
I am looking maybe 15-20m down the trail, never looking at my front wheel of where it is on the trail.However it may be you need to work up to this with practice, I've been MTB'ing for 25+yrs.
Interesting thread, I am relatively new to mtb coming from the road and I have a bad habit of not looking far enough ahead and focusing on roots/rocks immediately ahead. If I'm not literally telling myself to look ahead I'll revert back to bad habits.
OP if you aren't looking far enough ahead it feels much more frantic and stressful as you are always reacting to obstacles at the last second.
I was thinking of having some lessons for my birthday, I'm in Devon if anyone can recommend a good coach in the area.
OP if you aren't looking far enough ahead it feels much more frantic and stressful as you are always reacting to obstacles at the last second.
I was thinking of having some lessons for my birthday, I'm in Devon if anyone can recommend a good coach in the area.
nickfrog said:
If you look at what you're trying to avoid, you'll probably hit it. Better to look at where you want to be...or a little bit further.
Definitely not a vision problem; I know all about target fixation from motorbiking days and the same applies to pedal bikes; I am also very tuned in to how far ahead I'm looking on the bike as my vision point coming back towards the front wheel is a good sign for me getting tired and time to take a break.I will always have scanned and chosen my route a fair way ahead.
I think this is more about the fear of losing control. For example, there's a wide grass-and-sand hill with a decent slope and completely empty run-off one of the places I ride (Pembrey, home of Battle on the Beach)... If I did fall off, it'd effectively be in to a sand pit... I still can't ride down it - although I have ridden up it!
Tim Cognito said:
Interesting thread, I am relatively new to mtb coming from the road and I have a bad habit of not looking far enough ahead and focusing on roots/rocks immediately ahead. If I'm not literally telling myself to look ahead I'll revert back to bad habits.
OP if you aren't looking far enough ahead it feels much more frantic and stressful as you are always reacting to obstacles at the last second.
I was thinking of having some lessons for my birthday, I'm in Devon if anyone can recommend a good coach in the area.
It's a very easy habit to fall into & I would bet all of us do it if we're honest. I watched a video of Bernard Kerr, a downhill world cup racer last week, shredding in New Zealand, telling himself to work on looking ahead - it's an everyone thing.OP if you aren't looking far enough ahead it feels much more frantic and stressful as you are always reacting to obstacles at the last second.
I was thinking of having some lessons for my birthday, I'm in Devon if anyone can recommend a good coach in the area.
TGCOTF-dewey said:
Coaching is definitely the answer here.
Beware though, not all mtb coaches are equal... I've seen a few in action that were not only crap, but their advice was wrong. It's very easy to set up as one and being good on a bike does not necessarily mean you're a good coach.
The issue with steep and fast DH sections is that yes they are scary and yes you can seriously hurt yourself. That fear is perfectly normal.
However, the problem is fear creates possibly the worst riding position for DH - knees tucked against the top tube, arms straight, death grip, and arse hugging the rear tyre.
As soon as that position is adopted, it feels faster, out of control, and risks becoming a self fulfilling profecy.
You're only going to feel comfortable by maintaining the right posture... Which is only achievable by coaching really.
I can thoroughly recommend Tony Doyle who runs UK BIKE Skills. He has his own training ground too, with every possible feature on it.
That see-saw. No thanks Beware though, not all mtb coaches are equal... I've seen a few in action that were not only crap, but their advice was wrong. It's very easy to set up as one and being good on a bike does not necessarily mean you're a good coach.
The issue with steep and fast DH sections is that yes they are scary and yes you can seriously hurt yourself. That fear is perfectly normal.
However, the problem is fear creates possibly the worst riding position for DH - knees tucked against the top tube, arms straight, death grip, and arse hugging the rear tyre.
As soon as that position is adopted, it feels faster, out of control, and risks becoming a self fulfilling profecy.
You're only going to feel comfortable by maintaining the right posture... Which is only achievable by coaching really.
I can thoroughly recommend Tony Doyle who runs UK BIKE Skills. He has his own training ground too, with every possible feature on it.
Legacywr said:
The biggest threat to your health and safety on a pushbike is your own speed. Maybe recent events have taught you this, even if you don’t realise?
Maybe so.I'm quite chicken on a MTB, 40 years of being relatively safe on motorbikes on the road means I'm very aware of being half naked, having poor grip and no power to get out of trouble.
I think a lot of 'mature' MTB owners are trying to run before they can walk.
They do a few hours once or twice a month for a few months of the year, after a layoff of a decade or three, and think they can blitz around like indestructible teenagers who've been hooning about every evening for the past few years.
I've done a bit of offroad motorbike stuff over the years, as with MTBs but more so, the bikes are so good you can get away with a lot, but when it goes worng, you can be going way too fast and it hurts. I don't have the bones for that any more.
I don't know anyone who's crashed a motorbike in the last 5 years. I know lots of people who've had MTB injuries.
So with the pedal bikes, I just enjoy the easy stuff and the stuff where if it goes wrong, I won't be going fast and won't be falling 50 metres down a hill.
trails said:
defblade, do you have any mates that can help...even at the ripe old age of 51 peer pressure certainly focuses my attention if I'm not riding at the level I should be!
Where are you based, I'd happily go for a pedal with you and provide appropriate encouragement/heckling
South/West Wales - Brechfa, Afan and Pembrey are my main places, although I'm slowly picking up more possibles from Facebook... time and weather often work against me tho. And I'm 52, so I do think part of it is awareness of mortality (or at least, break-ability).Where are you based, I'd happily go for a pedal with you and provide appropriate encouragement/heckling
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