Propel collapses... Giant facing huge compo hill
Discussion
It’s a sad situation for the chap concerned but not enough info to decide if it is a single defective build rather than an inherent issue.
Compo bill is actually not “huge” and isn’t a problem for Giant who are a $90bn company who will be insured but a Shimano-esque recall would be an expensive problem for them.
Since it doesn’t appear to be a widespread issue, then nothing more will happen - have to see how many faults exist first to ascertain if a class-action case is merited.
This is the only example to have come to light though so far. It may be a bad batch or just a single unfortunate build.
Edit to add: Know a few who broke steel forks back in the day and more recently a friend cracked his Scott carbon forks - sent him crashing - but out of warranty and he never claimed compo.
Compo bill is actually not “huge” and isn’t a problem for Giant who are a $90bn company who will be insured but a Shimano-esque recall would be an expensive problem for them.
Since it doesn’t appear to be a widespread issue, then nothing more will happen - have to see how many faults exist first to ascertain if a class-action case is merited.
This is the only example to have come to light though so far. It may be a bad batch or just a single unfortunate build.
Edit to add: Know a few who broke steel forks back in the day and more recently a friend cracked his Scott carbon forks - sent him crashing - but out of warranty and he never claimed compo.
Edited by YorkshireStu on Saturday 20th January 09:34
OutInTheShed said:
The compo is not huge for someone younger than me with a broken back.
But it seems to me, a failure like this could also be caused by hitting a pothole or something.
Carbon-alloy bonds also have some corrosion tendencies.
It is a road bike though, it shouldn’t fold up underneath you when you hit a pothole.But it seems to me, a failure like this could also be caused by hitting a pothole or something.
Carbon-alloy bonds also have some corrosion tendencies.
Giant are chasing weights with the Propel, maybe they have gone too far?
The failure mode of carbon fibre is one thing that concerns me, I had a steerer tube fail on my cyclocross bike, luckily at low speed, but it was completely without warning, I stood up to ride a short climb and promptly pulled the handlebars off the bike. The race preceding this on had been the Three Peaks, the consequences of the same failure there could have been much worse than landing on my arse in a damp field.
gazza285 said:
OutInTheShed said:
The compo is not huge for someone younger than me with a broken back.
But it seems to me, a failure like this could also be caused by hitting a pothole or something.
Carbon-alloy bonds also have some corrosion tendencies.
It is a road bike though, it shouldn’t fold up underneath you when you hit a pothole.But it seems to me, a failure like this could also be caused by hitting a pothole or something.
Carbon-alloy bonds also have some corrosion tendencies.
Giant are chasing weights with the Propel, maybe they have gone too far?
The failure mode of carbon fibre is one thing that concerns me, I had a steerer tube fail on my cyclocross bike, luckily at low speed, but it was completely without warning, I stood up to ride a short climb and promptly pulled the handlebars off the bike. The race preceding this on had been the Three Peaks, the consequences of the same failure there could have been much worse than landing on my arse in a damp field.
How many potholes might a bike hit, and how hard?
How much checking and maintenance do people do?
How long do people expect stuff to last?
What is the type approval and QA process for marketing a racing bike?
There are a lot of aftermarket carbon forks with ali steerer tubes, how safe are they?
Factory gate price is probably buttons.
I have seen a lot of broken carbon bits from boats.
Make it as cheap as possible.
If no one complains, make it cheaper.
Did that work? Make it cheaper.
Someone breaks their back when it fails catastrophically, deny, deny deny, settle.
Checks how much they saved, is it more or less than the compensation and reputational damage?
More? Great we're doing it right.
If no one complains, make it cheaper.
Did that work? Make it cheaper.
Someone breaks their back when it fails catastrophically, deny, deny deny, settle.
Checks how much they saved, is it more or less than the compensation and reputational damage?
More? Great we're doing it right.
OutInTheShed said:
Buyers choose to buy light weight stuff and ride it on the raods.
How many potholes might a bike hit, and how hard?
How much checking and maintenance do people do?
How long do people expect stuff to last?
What is the type approval and QA process for marketing a racing bike?
There are a lot of aftermarket carbon forks with ali steerer tubes, how safe are they?
Factory gate price is probably buttons.
I have seen a lot of broken carbon bits from boats.
Hitting a pothole used to end up with a flat tyre, and maybe a dented rim though, not a catastrophic structural failure.How many potholes might a bike hit, and how hard?
How much checking and maintenance do people do?
How long do people expect stuff to last?
What is the type approval and QA process for marketing a racing bike?
There are a lot of aftermarket carbon forks with ali steerer tubes, how safe are they?
Factory gate price is probably buttons.
I have seen a lot of broken carbon bits from boats.
YorkshireStu said:
Compo bill is actually not “huge” and isn’t a problem for Giant who are a $90bn company who will be insured but a Shimano-esque recall would be an expensive problem for them.
Am I due a parrot here?According to https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/9921.TW/ their market cap is 65bn Taiwanese Dollars or USD 2bn
$90bn buys you GSK or most of BP!
https://companiesmarketcap.com/united-kingdom/larg...
gazza285 said:
Hitting a pothole used to end up with a flat tyre, and maybe a dented rim though, not a catastrophic structural failure.
Maybe a 1970s Raleigh wheel would have deformed and absorbed impact better than a modern racing rim, protecting the fork?Didn't stop me writing off a fork and frame when I was 15.
People have managed to break all sorts of frames made of any material, since bikes were invented.
It doesn't take much to fail on a bike and you've lost control.
gazza285 said:
Hitting a pothole used to end up with a flat tyre, and maybe a dented rim though, not a catastrophic structural failure.
I know people bemoan Spesh and Cervelo. But ISTR both of those brands did a ton of testing and inspection in the last decade on the headtube/steerer tube to ensure it didn't break away. I think they also redesigned their shipping packaging as they discovered some of the problems were as a result of clumsy handling once it left their site, but hadn't gotten to the end consumer.
Got to assume that every rider would take a weight increase in that area if it meant reducing failure to near nil
Being on the heavier end of the spectrum I don't fancy a bike with carbon forks. Other than my hardtail MTB my bikes are all steel frame and forks. Not that steel doesn't fail but maybe not as suddenly as carbon. A 1&1/8th inch steel steerer is fairly chunky.
A front fork/steerer failure at speed doesn't bear thinking about.
A front fork/steerer failure at speed doesn't bear thinking about.
OutInTheShed said:
Maybe a 1970s Raleigh wheel would have deformed and absorbed impact better than a modern racing rim, protecting the fork?
Didn't stop me writing off a fork and frame when I was 15.
People have managed to break all sorts of frames made of any material, since bikes were invented.
It doesn't take much to fail on a bike and you've lost control.
Maybe - perhaps acting more as a shock absorber? Being less rigid, more pliable? Dunno the differences myself but could be. Didn't stop me writing off a fork and frame when I was 15.
People have managed to break all sorts of frames made of any material, since bikes were invented.
It doesn't take much to fail on a bike and you've lost control.
Interestingly, modern carbon wheels are actually a lot stronger than old steel and alu wheels.
Zipp pioneered this for Paris Roubaix where they had Fabian Cancellara race on those infamous cobbles that break rims.
They ended up with carbon wheels that can be used for those stresses.
GCN did a test too recently where they took the tyres off a cheap Chinese-brand carbon rim on a road bike and had a mountain biker bash it around a technical single track off-road. They survived without even going out of true as I recall.
Gravel bikes use road carbon wheels. MTB’s use even tougher rims - it’s amazing how much they absorb.
It has been proven time and time again that carbon is stronger than steel for bikes at bike tolerances and material thicknesses..
But, like anything, defects can exist from time to time and even carbon has a breaking point under a certain stress load.
Plus, not all carbon is equal in the same way as we get different grades of steel. The carbon used for a low-to-mid range bike is not the same as that used in the higher-end machines.
YorkshireStu said:
Maybe - perhaps acting more as a shock absorber? Being less rigid, more pliable? Dunno the differences myself but could be.
Interestingly, modern carbon wheels are actually a lot stronger than old steel and alu wheels.
Zipp pioneered this for Paris Roubaix where they had Fabian Cancellara race on those infamous cobbles that break rims.
They ended up with carbon wheels that can be used for those stresses.
GCN did a test too recently where they took the tyres off a cheap Chinese-brand carbon rim on a road bike and had a mountain biker bash it around a technical single track off-road. They survived without even going out of true as I recall.
Gravel bikes use road carbon wheels. MTB’s use even tougher rims - it’s amazing how much they absorb.
It has been proven time and time again that carbon is stronger than steel for bikes at bike tolerances and material thicknesses..
But, like anything, defects can exist from time to time and even carbon has a breaking point under a certain stress load.
Plus, not all carbon is equal in the same way as we get different grades of steel. The carbon used for a low-to-mid range bike is not the same as that used in the higher-end machines.
Carbon is strong and stiff. As a fire it is stiffer than steel, higher modulus. Interestingly, modern carbon wheels are actually a lot stronger than old steel and alu wheels.
Zipp pioneered this for Paris Roubaix where they had Fabian Cancellara race on those infamous cobbles that break rims.
They ended up with carbon wheels that can be used for those stresses.
GCN did a test too recently where they took the tyres off a cheap Chinese-brand carbon rim on a road bike and had a mountain biker bash it around a technical single track off-road. They survived without even going out of true as I recall.
Gravel bikes use road carbon wheels. MTB’s use even tougher rims - it’s amazing how much they absorb.
It has been proven time and time again that carbon is stronger than steel for bikes at bike tolerances and material thicknesses..
But, like anything, defects can exist from time to time and even carbon has a breaking point under a certain stress load.
Plus, not all carbon is equal in the same way as we get different grades of steel. The carbon used for a low-to-mid range bike is not the same as that used in the higher-end machines.
That makes e..g a carbon wheel capable of transmitting greater forces to other parts of a bike.
Stiff and tough are not always the same thing. Carbon doesn't strecth much before breaking.
But reading between the lines, is what happened here a failure of the join between an alloy steering tube and a carbon fork?
Is that just a glorified glue joint?
As a motorcyclist, that bit of a bike always looks like an extreme concentration of stress compared to the dual crown forks of motorbikes.
OutInTheShed said:
I think sudden failure of any of the significant 'joints' between key elements of a bicycle are quite likely to have the same result?
I’ve broken steel frames when I rode cyclotrials, mainly down tubes, as they are in tension, the top tube was still holding the bike together, so while it was a little springy the bike was still rideable.When I worked in a bike shop back in the eighties and nineties you would get kids bikes that had been run into walls multiple times, until the front wheel was catching the down tube. The alternative was a bike that had been wheelied until the forks bent forward.
Rapid and total failure just wasn’t a thing.
Good video with bike shop carbon specialist showing carbon fork failures. Some found on visual inspection others after ultrasound. A mix of user error and manufacturer quality control failure.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muukpjzb5Jw
Top comment on the video was
"I’ve been in denial about the state of my steerer for some time. I told myself it was okay, even though I was pretty sure that, owing to the fact I had not used a torque wrench, I had, and continued to over tighten the stem bolts, damaging the carbon.
Watching your video this morning was definitely a wake up call.
I took the fork out and checked it. There is a vertical 2 inch crack all the way through the laminate at the top of the steerer, and also horizontal damage. Crushing damage. I’ve been riding around like that for who knows how long. It was a death trap.
No matter how many times I’ve heard mechanics/technicians, including yourself, on countless videos telling me to use a torque wrench, and not to over tighten, I ignored it.
I’m clearly a moron, and I greatly appreciate you taking the time to make this video ????
New forks are on order. I will also buy a torque wrench."
My 1& 1/8th steel steerers may weigh a ton but I'm not going to damage them by snugging my stem up too tight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muukpjzb5Jw
Top comment on the video was
"I’ve been in denial about the state of my steerer for some time. I told myself it was okay, even though I was pretty sure that, owing to the fact I had not used a torque wrench, I had, and continued to over tighten the stem bolts, damaging the carbon.
Watching your video this morning was definitely a wake up call.
I took the fork out and checked it. There is a vertical 2 inch crack all the way through the laminate at the top of the steerer, and also horizontal damage. Crushing damage. I’ve been riding around like that for who knows how long. It was a death trap.
No matter how many times I’ve heard mechanics/technicians, including yourself, on countless videos telling me to use a torque wrench, and not to over tighten, I ignored it.
I’m clearly a moron, and I greatly appreciate you taking the time to make this video ????
New forks are on order. I will also buy a torque wrench."
My 1& 1/8th steel steerers may weigh a ton but I'm not going to damage them by snugging my stem up too tight.
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