Entry level E-MTBs, worth a try?
Discussion
As per the title, really. Quite fancy trying an E-MTB and would like to know how PHers are getting on with theirs.
My existing MTB is thoroughly old school (26", hard tail, no dropper post or thru axles and definitely no power assistance!) and, faithful steed though it's been, as I'm getting older and heavier and slower I do fancy moving to a much more modern electrically assisted full suspension bike.
I had a day on a hired enduro bike (non electric) at a trail centre recently. With the uplift to the top of the hill it was great fun bombing down the trails, but the odd uphill bit proved bloody hard work compared with my own bike, so I wouldn't have wanted to take the enduro bike on my usual all day cross country rides. Tack on a motor and battery pack, though, and it would be a different story...
Prices for the electric full sus bikes are a bit brutal, and I certainly won't be spending the sort of money that the big-name bike brands command, but for around £3k I can get something like a Haibike full suspension E-MTB, with 29" wheels and what looks a decent enough spec.
Of course I have a few daft questions...
Presumably factory E-MTBs from any reputable manufacturer will be power and speed restricted in the same manner as road e-bikes, and therefore can be legitimately used on road as well as off?
Various battery capacities are available, around 600Wh seems to be the average, is this likely to be enough for a full days riding if deployed carefully?
Is it generally possible to remove the battery for charging, and also perhaps to swap in a second fully charged battery if we do a particularly long ride?
Most of the bikes seem to have either Bosch or Yamaha motors, any great advantage to either? Particularly in terms of reliability as they're undoubtedly expensive to fix should they go wrong.
And finally, is there a particular good time to pick up a bargain in the world of bikes? Black Friday/Jan sales/some particular time of year when they try to clear last year's model...?
My existing MTB is thoroughly old school (26", hard tail, no dropper post or thru axles and definitely no power assistance!) and, faithful steed though it's been, as I'm getting older and heavier and slower I do fancy moving to a much more modern electrically assisted full suspension bike.
I had a day on a hired enduro bike (non electric) at a trail centre recently. With the uplift to the top of the hill it was great fun bombing down the trails, but the odd uphill bit proved bloody hard work compared with my own bike, so I wouldn't have wanted to take the enduro bike on my usual all day cross country rides. Tack on a motor and battery pack, though, and it would be a different story...
Prices for the electric full sus bikes are a bit brutal, and I certainly won't be spending the sort of money that the big-name bike brands command, but for around £3k I can get something like a Haibike full suspension E-MTB, with 29" wheels and what looks a decent enough spec.
Of course I have a few daft questions...
Presumably factory E-MTBs from any reputable manufacturer will be power and speed restricted in the same manner as road e-bikes, and therefore can be legitimately used on road as well as off?
Various battery capacities are available, around 600Wh seems to be the average, is this likely to be enough for a full days riding if deployed carefully?
Is it generally possible to remove the battery for charging, and also perhaps to swap in a second fully charged battery if we do a particularly long ride?
Most of the bikes seem to have either Bosch or Yamaha motors, any great advantage to either? Particularly in terms of reliability as they're undoubtedly expensive to fix should they go wrong.
And finally, is there a particular good time to pick up a bargain in the world of bikes? Black Friday/Jan sales/some particular time of year when they try to clear last year's model...?
Jonny_ said:
Of course I have a few daft questions...
Presumably factory E-MTBs from any reputable manufacturer will be power and speed restricted in the same manner as road e-bikes, and therefore can be legitimately used on road as well as off?
Various battery capacities are available, around 600Wh seems to be the average, is this likely to be enough for a full days riding if deployed carefully?
Is it generally possible to remove the battery for charging, and also perhaps to swap in a second fully charged battery if we do a particularly long ride?
Most of the bikes seem to have either Bosch or Yamaha motors, any great advantage to either? Particularly in terms of reliability as they're undoubtedly expensive to fix should they go wrong.
And finally, is there a particular good time to pick up a bargain in the world of bikes? Black Friday/Jan sales/some particular time of year when they try to clear last year's model...?
Most mainstream manufacturers will be speed and power limited. A few mates have Haibikes, Specialised and Trek variants which are all limited to the road legal requirements.
I reckon you would struggle with a full day's riding on a single battery charge. I use about 60% of my battery doing 26 miles daily on road - from memory mine is a 400Wh, but I always ride full assistance. I just want to get to work!
I don't know about overall reliability of each motor manufacturer, but mine has been fine. The Yamaha motor still seems good. Mate with a Haibike has needed to fully strip his down after it started cutting out regularly, but he rides in every condition the British weather throws at him and done about 6000 miles. One data point is hardly a trend though.
My bike has a cheaper groupset, which at first bothered me. But having torn through an entire drive train, it makes the replacement cheaper. I very much doubt a more expensive groupset would have given much greater longevity.... The assisted power puts a lot of stress on the components.
I would say now is a good time to buy. There is an oversupply issue in the bike market, meaning prices look competitive. Do you have the cycle scheme at your workplace? That will make it even more competitive.
Get the largest battery that you can. I can just about do 4 hours of xcountry but I don’t think any battery even the 725 watt ones would do all day.
Re extra batteries have you seen the cost? £700 is about average unless your bike will take a booster.
The sales are just starting so you should find something to suit you.
Re extra batteries have you seen the cost? £700 is about average unless your bike will take a booster.
The sales are just starting so you should find something to suit you.
What does 'all day' count as?
I rented an ebike with a 500wh battery and did only uphill firetracks and then downhill single track for 35 miles. Battery was nearly flat after that but I was shattered, that was the end of the day for me as far as riding is concerned!
I get about that distance rising sort of xc from a 360wh battery now. I'm relatively light on assistance.
I rented an ebike with a 500wh battery and did only uphill firetracks and then downhill single track for 35 miles. Battery was nearly flat after that but I was shattered, that was the end of the day for me as far as riding is concerned!
I get about that distance rising sort of xc from a 360wh battery now. I'm relatively light on assistance.
If you're going to ride with other people, it's a good idea to go for similar kit.
Otherwise you can have fun at various levels, if you choose the rides to suit the bike you've got.
I've borrowed a few wildy different ebikes and I'm not driven to own any of them.
An expensive full suss ebike could easily see me injuring myself, but it was a lot of fun.
A basic rear-hub conversion hardtail was a lot of fun on different tracks and allowed me to keep up with younger fitter people up hill.
Riding a full sus e-bike on 'technical' ground was very hard work, the battery outlasted me.
Doing long scenic trails like the Dartmoor Way, I can see the battery tiring before the rider.
Horses for courses.
My problem is I don't take cycling seriously, I like to dip into different aspects of it.
One tip, a removable battery can make it easier to lift the bike (sans battery) on to the roof of a car.
Otherwise you can have fun at various levels, if you choose the rides to suit the bike you've got.
I've borrowed a few wildy different ebikes and I'm not driven to own any of them.
An expensive full suss ebike could easily see me injuring myself, but it was a lot of fun.
A basic rear-hub conversion hardtail was a lot of fun on different tracks and allowed me to keep up with younger fitter people up hill.
Riding a full sus e-bike on 'technical' ground was very hard work, the battery outlasted me.
Doing long scenic trails like the Dartmoor Way, I can see the battery tiring before the rider.
Horses for courses.
My problem is I don't take cycling seriously, I like to dip into different aspects of it.
One tip, a removable battery can make it easier to lift the bike (sans battery) on to the roof of a car.
Your quite right, you wouldn't want to take a modern Enduro bike on an all day long XC ride. It would be crap.
You would however be much better off with a nice light xc focused trail of dare I say it *downcountry* bike!entry level e-mtbs tend to be pretty dreadful from what I've experienced.
You would however be much better off with a nice light xc focused trail of dare I say it *downcountry* bike!entry level e-mtbs tend to be pretty dreadful from what I've experienced.
There seem to be some pretty good deals at the moment.
I’ve just bought a Kenevo SL for £3.7k. Still a load of money but much more palatable than the RRP.
Personally I’m not a fan of the full power e-bikes because of the weight. Most of the ones I looked at seems to be circa 55lbs which just seems bonkers.
I’m quite happy with less assistance to take the sting out of the boring bits. Plus with the lower weight, running out of juice isn’t quite such a big deal.
I’ve just bought a Kenevo SL for £3.7k. Still a load of money but much more palatable than the RRP.
Personally I’m not a fan of the full power e-bikes because of the weight. Most of the ones I looked at seems to be circa 55lbs which just seems bonkers.
I’m quite happy with less assistance to take the sting out of the boring bits. Plus with the lower weight, running out of juice isn’t quite such a big deal.
I'd suggest hiring at a couple of different trail centres and seeing how you get on. From riding a couple of full fat ones I don't see the point in long rides on them as you have to limit the power you use as they're hateful to ride unassisted and the weight makes them worse than a normal bike downhill. Riding them flat out for a couple of hours is brilliant fun though and pretty much negates the downhills being slightly less fun as you'll be braking into uphill corners.
I’m following this.
I had a weekend up at Keswick a few weeks back and me and some mates hire some hardtail e-bikes, we went up in the hills and did 27 miles of trails which has reignited my desire to get out more but my 17 year old GT isn’t cutting it, it hasn’t even got disc brakes.
I’m dubious about buying a second hand ebike because of battery and motor issues and new full suspension e-bikes are massively expensive.
I can get a couple of year old full suspension Whyte or similar for around £1000-1500 and a decent 1kw bafang kit with a battery is about £1000. I just haven’t seen any good solutions for the battery mounting on a full suspension bike.
I had a weekend up at Keswick a few weeks back and me and some mates hire some hardtail e-bikes, we went up in the hills and did 27 miles of trails which has reignited my desire to get out more but my 17 year old GT isn’t cutting it, it hasn’t even got disc brakes.
I’m dubious about buying a second hand ebike because of battery and motor issues and new full suspension e-bikes are massively expensive.
I can get a couple of year old full suspension Whyte or similar for around £1000-1500 and a decent 1kw bafang kit with a battery is about £1000. I just haven’t seen any good solutions for the battery mounting on a full suspension bike.
Thanks all. Plenty to think about here!
I'm certainly reconsidering the "full fat" bikes, and having a look at second hand lighter full sus bikes instead. These seem to be a fair bit lighter at 22/23kg versus 26/27 for the beefier bikes.
A Specialized Turbo Levo looks like a decent possibility (the alloy version, I'm not keen on carbon fibre, would be constantly worrying about damaging it). I've seen a few 2022 bikes in decent order hovering around the £3k mark, although it does feel like a bit of a risk buying privately at this sort of price. And the Comp version with the more flexible controller and component upgrades is tempting, but of course more expensive...
I did briefly look at the option of buying a used full sus bike, giving it a refresh with new components and adding a mid drive kit, but I too remain unconvinced about the battery mounting options, plus I suspect that it'll still end up being nearly as expensive as a purpose built e-mtb.
I'm certainly reconsidering the "full fat" bikes, and having a look at second hand lighter full sus bikes instead. These seem to be a fair bit lighter at 22/23kg versus 26/27 for the beefier bikes.
A Specialized Turbo Levo looks like a decent possibility (the alloy version, I'm not keen on carbon fibre, would be constantly worrying about damaging it). I've seen a few 2022 bikes in decent order hovering around the £3k mark, although it does feel like a bit of a risk buying privately at this sort of price. And the Comp version with the more flexible controller and component upgrades is tempting, but of course more expensive...
I did briefly look at the option of buying a used full sus bike, giving it a refresh with new components and adding a mid drive kit, but I too remain unconvinced about the battery mounting options, plus I suspect that it'll still end up being nearly as expensive as a purpose built e-mtb.
Jonny_ said:
all day cross country rides.
What does this involve? If you're doing this on a 26" hardtail are you sure a gravel bike or modern hardtail or XC full Sus aren't going to suit you better? And definitely hire one before buying. The one I hired was awful - hilarious what you could ride up but crap everywhere else.
Bill said:
What does this involve? If you're doing this on a 26" hardtail are you sure a gravel bike or modern hardtail or XC full Sus aren't going to suit you better?
And definitely hire one before buying. The one I hired was awful - hilarious what you could ride up but crap everywhere else.
The riding I do is pretty varied, from spending a day just bombing round a few relatively short trail centre routes (Gisburn, Stainburn), to 30 mile treks around the Peak District, with stuff like the Dalby red route in between. And the odd foray further afield to Wales.And definitely hire one before buying. The one I hired was awful - hilarious what you could ride up but crap everywhere else.
Part of my problem is I'm getting older and fatter and my knees just don't stand up to a lot of hard pedalling as well as they once did. Hence the appeal of a motor to assist with the climbs. And that hired enduro machine has opened my eyes as to how capable a modern FS bike can be compared with my hardtail, especially on those rocky technical sections which I currently have to pretty much tiptoe over.
Basically, I want to be able to enjoy those technical bits more, without breaking my neck (or my bike come to that), and without spending the last few miles of a lengthy ride feeling too knackered to enjoy it!
I'm going to look into hiring an emtb next time we visit a trail centre. Dalby have some Trek and Haibike bikes, Gisburn have Haibike and KTM, and Sutton Bank hire out a Whyte electric hardtail.
Cheers!
You sound a bit like me...
I'm 42, not unfit but equally not fit fit... used to be fitter and rode a succession of hard tail and FS bikes, varied terrain from trail centres and longer "go explore" sort of stuff and I'm a fairly average rider but I was never great stamina wise, the climbs would kill me and thus I'd end up not enjoying the other bits or I'd actively avoid any serious climbing. Add kids, work and a lack of time and I really struggled of late.
The eBike idea started to bleed into my thought process last summer but the costs made them prohibitive so I hung on in there with my analogue bike but with a lack of time, the slippery slope downwards continued. This summer I serious considered buying a new Cube FS hybrid, spurred on by the £3k interest free loan and probably a few beers one lunch time but that loan offer ceased and getting a large frame seemed unnecessarily hard.
A mate who'd bought a used eBike (and subsequently loved it) announced he was upgrading, so I borrowed it and within about 500yds was hooked. Had it a few days, rode a few routes locally and that was me sold. I paid £2k for it, which still seems utterly obscene and once the honeymoon period of the first few days faded, I'd admit I was seriously questioning my decision, compounded by the fact it was a completely different riding experience and I was probably struggling to adapt to it initially.
That was then, this is now... and I've since grouped up with a few local guys who have eBikes and done a few rides with them and that's made a huge difference. I've also been out on it far more than I'd have ever expected as now a quick 1hr blast round the woods is great fun, exciting, I'm getting technically better and I'm enjoying it as it's not exhausting me. Granted it's a bit of a beast to throw about, so easy or cheating it is not... even on longer climbs, it still takes effort but as I'm riding it more and for much longer, I'm getting fitter. Spending all day at a trail centre doing run after run is now viable as is disappearing into the ills for several hours.
The cherry on the cake for me is that my little boy (6) rides too but he's not got the ability to ride to the top of trail centres several times to then hurl himself back down... so before we'd do maybe one run or would end up walking for most of the climbs and thus both his and my enthusiasm took a battering. With the eBike, I now tow him up the climbs and so he's also not exhausted and his riding has come on leaps and bounds too. The only downside is that yes, it's a massive thing and thus has to go in the car rather than on it... but that's not the end of the world.
Granted, this sounds like me waxing lyrical over them but I honestly didn't think I'd enjoy it as much as I do. Yes, it was a bit ropey at first whilst adapting to the different riding technique and putting faith in it's surprising ability to get up stuff, down stuff or over but I wouldn't go back now. I'd definitely recommend trying one... or better still, a few as there are a myriad of choices out there depending on budget, usage etc etc. I'd gladly give you a shot of mine for a few hours if you were near by.
I'm 42, not unfit but equally not fit fit... used to be fitter and rode a succession of hard tail and FS bikes, varied terrain from trail centres and longer "go explore" sort of stuff and I'm a fairly average rider but I was never great stamina wise, the climbs would kill me and thus I'd end up not enjoying the other bits or I'd actively avoid any serious climbing. Add kids, work and a lack of time and I really struggled of late.
The eBike idea started to bleed into my thought process last summer but the costs made them prohibitive so I hung on in there with my analogue bike but with a lack of time, the slippery slope downwards continued. This summer I serious considered buying a new Cube FS hybrid, spurred on by the £3k interest free loan and probably a few beers one lunch time but that loan offer ceased and getting a large frame seemed unnecessarily hard.
A mate who'd bought a used eBike (and subsequently loved it) announced he was upgrading, so I borrowed it and within about 500yds was hooked. Had it a few days, rode a few routes locally and that was me sold. I paid £2k for it, which still seems utterly obscene and once the honeymoon period of the first few days faded, I'd admit I was seriously questioning my decision, compounded by the fact it was a completely different riding experience and I was probably struggling to adapt to it initially.
That was then, this is now... and I've since grouped up with a few local guys who have eBikes and done a few rides with them and that's made a huge difference. I've also been out on it far more than I'd have ever expected as now a quick 1hr blast round the woods is great fun, exciting, I'm getting technically better and I'm enjoying it as it's not exhausting me. Granted it's a bit of a beast to throw about, so easy or cheating it is not... even on longer climbs, it still takes effort but as I'm riding it more and for much longer, I'm getting fitter. Spending all day at a trail centre doing run after run is now viable as is disappearing into the ills for several hours.
The cherry on the cake for me is that my little boy (6) rides too but he's not got the ability to ride to the top of trail centres several times to then hurl himself back down... so before we'd do maybe one run or would end up walking for most of the climbs and thus both his and my enthusiasm took a battering. With the eBike, I now tow him up the climbs and so he's also not exhausted and his riding has come on leaps and bounds too. The only downside is that yes, it's a massive thing and thus has to go in the car rather than on it... but that's not the end of the world.
Granted, this sounds like me waxing lyrical over them but I honestly didn't think I'd enjoy it as much as I do. Yes, it was a bit ropey at first whilst adapting to the different riding technique and putting faith in it's surprising ability to get up stuff, down stuff or over but I wouldn't go back now. I'd definitely recommend trying one... or better still, a few as there are a myriad of choices out there depending on budget, usage etc etc. I'd gladly give you a shot of mine for a few hours if you were near by.
Jonny_ said:
The riding I do is pretty varied, from spending a day just bombing round a few relatively short trail centre routes (Gisburn, Stainburn), to 30 mile treks around the Peak District, with stuff like the Dalby red route in between. And the odd foray further afield to Wales.
Part of my problem is I'm getting older and fatter and my knees just don't stand up to a lot of hard pedalling as well as they once did. Hence the appeal of a motor to assist with the climbs. And that hired enduro machine has opened my eyes as to how capable a modern FS bike can be compared with my hardtail, especially on those rocky technical sections which I currently have to pretty much tiptoe over.
Basically, I want to be able to enjoy those technical bits more, without breaking my neck (or my bike come to that), and without spending the last few miles of a lengthy ride feeling too knackered to enjoy it!
I'm going to look into hiring an emtb next time we visit a trail centre. Dalby have some Trek and Haibike bikes, Gisburn have Haibike and KTM, and Sutton Bank hire out a Whyte electric hardtail.
Cheers!
Given the range of stuff you do, are you sure you don't need two (+1, obvs...) bikes?? Part of my problem is I'm getting older and fatter and my knees just don't stand up to a lot of hard pedalling as well as they once did. Hence the appeal of a motor to assist with the climbs. And that hired enduro machine has opened my eyes as to how capable a modern FS bike can be compared with my hardtail, especially on those rocky technical sections which I currently have to pretty much tiptoe over.
Basically, I want to be able to enjoy those technical bits more, without breaking my neck (or my bike come to that), and without spending the last few miles of a lengthy ride feeling too knackered to enjoy it!
I'm going to look into hiring an emtb next time we visit a trail centre. Dalby have some Trek and Haibike bikes, Gisburn have Haibike and KTM, and Sutton Bank hire out a Whyte electric hardtail.
Cheers!
Bill said:
Given the range of stuff you do, are you sure you don't need two (+1, obvs...) bikes??
I'm already up to 4 as it is! (Hardtail MTB, road bike, battered old hybrid bike for riding into town, and an el cheapo folding bike. And then there's the daughter's bike as well. Next thing I'll need is a bigger shed...)
Davie, sounds like you're getting on well with your emtb, which is good to hear! I've got a similar view in that if it gets you out riding more often and for longer then it's got to be A Good Thing, we can't all be super fit stamina machines. One mate who I go riding with just doesn't seem to get tired at all, then again he frequents these "gym" places, which don't sound anywhere near as pleasant as the pub or the sofa...
Edited by Jonny_ on Saturday 11th November 08:39
Jonny_ said:
Thanks all. Plenty to think about here!
I'm certainly reconsidering the "full fat" bikes, and having a look at second hand lighter full sus bikes instead. These seem to be a fair bit lighter at 22/23kg versus 26/27 for the beefier bikes.
A Specialized Turbo Levo looks like a decent possibility (the alloy version, I'm not keen on carbon fibre, would be constantly worrying about damaging it). I've seen a few 2022 bikes in decent order hovering around the £3k mark, although it does feel like a bit of a risk buying privately at this sort of price. And the Comp version with the more flexible controller and component upgrades is tempting, but of course more expensive...
I did briefly look at the option of buying a used full sus bike, giving it a refresh with new components and adding a mid drive kit, but I too remain unconvinced about the battery mounting options, plus I suspect that it'll still end up being nearly as expensive as a purpose built e-mtb.
Levo turbo carbon is currently discounted by specialized to £4K (from £5.5k I think) making it cheaper than the alloy model - sold out online but some stock in stores I think (I just bought one a week ago though went for fork and carbon wheel upgrades). Been to hamsterley forest today - bike is awesome !I'm certainly reconsidering the "full fat" bikes, and having a look at second hand lighter full sus bikes instead. These seem to be a fair bit lighter at 22/23kg versus 26/27 for the beefier bikes.
A Specialized Turbo Levo looks like a decent possibility (the alloy version, I'm not keen on carbon fibre, would be constantly worrying about damaging it). I've seen a few 2022 bikes in decent order hovering around the £3k mark, although it does feel like a bit of a risk buying privately at this sort of price. And the Comp version with the more flexible controller and component upgrades is tempting, but of course more expensive...
I did briefly look at the option of buying a used full sus bike, giving it a refresh with new components and adding a mid drive kit, but I too remain unconvinced about the battery mounting options, plus I suspect that it'll still end up being nearly as expensive as a purpose built e-mtb.
Edited by beedj on Wednesday 22 November 21:48
beedj said:
Levo turbo carbon is currently discounted by specialized to £4K (from £5.5k I think) making it cheaper than the alloy model - sold out online but some stock in stores I think (I just bought one a week ago though went for fork and carbon wheel upgrades). Been to hamsterley forest today - bike is awesome !
Excellent, hope you're enjoying the bike! Edited by beedj on Wednesday 22 November 21:48
I went the other way and paid a bit more for an alloy Levo Comp (£4400 in Tredz black Friday sale). I think it's something like 800g heavier, but has slightly better components vs the standard Levo (although the alloy Comp misses out on the fancy new controller that's on the carbon Comp), and I can't get past my ingrained fear that I'd clumsily and irreparably damage anything carbon.
All being well the bike is arriving next week. Hope the weather holds out, don't mind it being baltic as long as it stays dry enough!
Jonny_ said:
Excellent, hope you're enjoying the bike!
I went the other way and paid a bit more for an alloy Levo Comp (£4400 in Tredz black Friday sale). I think it's something like 800g heavier, but has slightly better components vs the standard Levo (although the alloy Comp misses out on the fancy new controller that's on the carbon Comp), and I can't get past my ingrained fear that I'd clumsily and irreparably damage anything carbon.
All being well the bike is arriving next week. Hope the weather holds out, don't mind it being baltic as long as it stays dry enough!
Good stuff. The Tredz prices were too hard to ignore which is why I ended up taking the plunge with my Kenevo SL.I went the other way and paid a bit more for an alloy Levo Comp (£4400 in Tredz black Friday sale). I think it's something like 800g heavier, but has slightly better components vs the standard Levo (although the alloy Comp misses out on the fancy new controller that's on the carbon Comp), and I can't get past my ingrained fear that I'd clumsily and irreparably damage anything carbon.
All being well the bike is arriving next week. Hope the weather holds out, don't mind it being baltic as long as it stays dry enough!
I’m heading out shortly to take advantage of the cold, dry trails.
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