eMTB “wheelie mode”
Discussion
I’ve always been crap at doing wheelies, I don’t have the balance.
But I’ve been reading a bit about e bikes recently. And I have also seen that you can even get some bike with ABS (therefore computer controlled brake pressure).
So, similar to ‘drift mode’ for ford focuses, wouldn’t be possible to engineer “wheelie mode” for eMTBs? You’re supposed to keep your bike on one wheel when wheelying by balancing torque through the pedals (perhaps using rear brake also), and holding your weight over the centre of gravity…
If you have a computer that can control the acceleration of the rear wheel (via the motor) while you’re pedalling, can control (perhaps) the rear brake pressure, all you need is a few accelerometers to measure the “angle of wheelie” and you could - surely? - programme a wheelie mode for a bicycle. It might even be possible without the brake pressure control, I’d have thought? Just the same technology that is used in segways, etc.?
Coming soon to an eMTB?
But I’ve been reading a bit about e bikes recently. And I have also seen that you can even get some bike with ABS (therefore computer controlled brake pressure).
So, similar to ‘drift mode’ for ford focuses, wouldn’t be possible to engineer “wheelie mode” for eMTBs? You’re supposed to keep your bike on one wheel when wheelying by balancing torque through the pedals (perhaps using rear brake also), and holding your weight over the centre of gravity…
If you have a computer that can control the acceleration of the rear wheel (via the motor) while you’re pedalling, can control (perhaps) the rear brake pressure, all you need is a few accelerometers to measure the “angle of wheelie” and you could - surely? - programme a wheelie mode for a bicycle. It might even be possible without the brake pressure control, I’d have thought? Just the same technology that is used in segways, etc.?
Coming soon to an eMTB?
Tony Starks said:
Wouldn't you need some kind of gyroscope to help balance, otherwise all you will do is fall off the back
Yeah you'd need some horribly complicated system to work it all out and somehow apply torque to the motor and power to the rear brake at very specific moments to keep you on your back wheel. How it'd know the balancing point when taking into consideration the variable gradients you might be riding on I've no idea.
I agree it'd need to be responsive. but it's not very different from a Segway or those small 2 wheeled hoverboard things really, is it?
It doesn't need to 'know' the balance point, it just needs to know the desired 'wheelie angle' and it adjusts the torque/braking to maintain that, even as you shift your weight around (within a window that works, obviously). It's use accelerometers like in your phone (not a gyroscope) for sensing this.
For bikes with ABS on the front wheel you could quite easily add 'endo mode' too, I suspect.
It doesn't need to 'know' the balance point, it just needs to know the desired 'wheelie angle' and it adjusts the torque/braking to maintain that, even as you shift your weight around (within a window that works, obviously). It's use accelerometers like in your phone (not a gyroscope) for sensing this.
For bikes with ABS on the front wheel you could quite easily add 'endo mode' too, I suspect.
Edited by GiantCardboardPlato on Monday 19th June 06:27
The difference between eMTB and a Segway keeping the balancing point is the Segway motor can drive the wheels forward and backward. On the eMTB the motor can only drive forwards, you'd then be relying on control of the brake to prevent it going too far passed the balance point.
It probably could be done, certainly to assist the rider achieving a decent wheelie. As with any wheelie it'll be milliseconds away from going badly wrong, the lawyers would have a field day.
It probably could be done, certainly to assist the rider achieving a decent wheelie. As with any wheelie it'll be milliseconds away from going badly wrong, the lawyers would have a field day.
President Merkin said:
No manufacturer is ever going anywhere near this. Want to wheelie well? Practice!
I don’t under why you’d argue that… are you saying because of liability/danger to riders?The thing is, they already sell bicycles designed for and advertised as for hurling yourself down a mountain or doing big jumps. The marketing and the machine are made for that stuff. But if you use it wrong you could easily injure yourself. So I think it’s hard to argue there’d be a legal risk to manufacturer in something like a wheelie mode.
GiantCardboardPlato said:
I don’t under why you’d argue that… are you saying because of liability/danger to riders?
The thing is, they already sell bicycles designed for and advertised as for hurling yourself down a mountain or doing big jumps. The marketing and the machine are made for that stuff. But if you use it wrong you could easily injure yourself. So I think it’s hard to argue there’d be a legal risk to manufacturer in something like a wheelie mode.
An argument I didnt make...The thing is, they already sell bicycles designed for and advertised as for hurling yourself down a mountain or doing big jumps. The marketing and the machine are made for that stuff. But if you use it wrong you could easily injure yourself. So I think it’s hard to argue there’d be a legal risk to manufacturer in something like a wheelie mode.
Any bike can be wheelied, the only argument I rely on is evidence - no manufacturer has ever made one with aids for that specific purpose afaik, nor has anyone announced one, unless you can put me right, of course?
Anyway, you need this mate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iodw7PUJaQ
Edited by President Merkin on Monday 19th June 10:38
Edited by President Merkin on Monday 19th June 10:54
President Merkin said:
An argument I didnt make...
Any bike can be wheelied, the only argument I rely on is evidence - no manufacturer has ever made one with aids for that specific purpose afaik, nor has anyone announced one, unless you can put me right, of course?
Anyway, you need this mate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iodw7PUJaQ
Your argument is a bit sAny bike can be wheelied, the only argument I rely on is evidence - no manufacturer has ever made one with aids for that specific purpose afaik, nor has anyone announced one, unless you can put me right, of course?
Anyway, you need this mate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iodw7PUJaQ
Edited by President Merkin on Monday 19th June 10:38
Edited by President Merkin on Monday 19th June 10:54
t though, isn't it? Before the bicycle was invented, it would have been an argument for why nobody would ever make bicycles. Before a bicycle with gears/derailleur was made, it was an argument why nobody would ever make one. Before you could get a road bike with disc brakes... etc. etc.I'm not looking to learn to wheelie - just had an idea that this "wheelie assist" would be technologically possible and wanted to predict it coming about.
You have a habit of ascribing things to me I haven't said. Bit weird but whatever.
You'd have to ask bike manufacturers why they've never built the thing you describe. But they haven't though have they? It's such a competitive business, you would think if someone saw somwething in it, they'd do it in a flash. Maybe they're all missing a trick & you're actually the visionary?
You'd have to ask bike manufacturers why they've never built the thing you describe. But they haven't though have they? It's such a competitive business, you would think if someone saw somwething in it, they'd do it in a flash. Maybe they're all missing a trick & you're actually the visionary?
President Merkin said:
You have a habit of ascribing things to me I haven't said. Bit weird but whatever.
You'd have to ask bike manufacturers why they've never built the thing you describe. But they haven't though have they? It's such a competitive business, you would think if someone saw somwething in it, they'd do it in a flash. Maybe they're all missing a trick & you're actually the visionary?
You literally wrote that your argument for why manufacturers wouldn't make a "wheelie assist" mode was that "no manufacturer has ever made one":You'd have to ask bike manufacturers why they've never built the thing you describe. But they haven't though have they? It's such a competitive business, you would think if someone saw somwething in it, they'd do it in a flash. Maybe they're all missing a trick & you're actually the visionary?
President Merkin said:
No manufacturer is ever going anywhere near this. Want to wheelie well? Practice!
and then:President Merkin said:
Any bike can be wheelied, the only argument I rely on is evidence - no manufacturer has ever made one with aids for that specific purpose afaik, nor has anyone announced one, unless you can put me right, of course?
As for your more interesting point:IMO, likely reasons why they haven't yet:
1. eMTBs are relatively new, manufactures have been working on refining the basic technology.
2. Shimano/Bosch only announced their bike ABS last year: https://www.bicycleretailer.com/product-tech/2022/...
i.e., the key enabling technologies in the implementation I outline have only just arrived as mass market products.
IMO, reasons why they will:
it'd be relatively possible now those two technologies are in place, it'd be a cool gimmick, and people would be interested to try it.
Edited by GiantCardboardPlato on Monday 19th June 14:20
Edited by GiantCardboardPlato on Monday 19th June 14:20
GiantCardboardPlato said:
You literally wrote that your argument for why manufacturers wouldn't make a "wheelie assist" mode was that "no manufacturer has ever made one".
yeah, that was a satement, not an argument. You've been helpfully filling in the blanks ever since. It is however a QED. They haven't. I'm merely inviting you to explore why that might be.
President Merkin said:
GiantCardboardPlato said:
You literally wrote that your argument for why manufacturers wouldn't make a "wheelie assist" mode was that "no manufacturer has ever made one".
yeah, that was a satement, not an argument. You've been helpfully filling in the blanks ever since. It is however a QED. They haven't. I'm merely inviting you to explore why that might be.
President Merkin said:
Any bike can be wheelied, the only argument I rely on is evidence - no manufacturer has ever made one with aids for that specific purpose afaik, nor has anyone announced one, unless you can put me right, of course?
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