Off road crashing, getting out of ruts, tyre pressures?
Discussion
So In July I had a bad accident on the South Downs Way, trying to get out or a rut, front wheel went from under me, and bang, there went my clavicle, plus assorted bruising and road rash. I have an old Boardman hard tail with 26" wheels, and I asked at the time if it was this and its geometry that may be partly to blame? You sit quite high with your weight over the front wheel, so once it starts to slip there is very little time to react.
A few months later I rode my brother in law's fancy full sus Trek on similar trails. It felt bigger, and it felt like I was sat in it much more than on it. A couple of times I felt the front wheel slipping out but somehow it sorted itself out.
Then on Sunday again on the SDW on my Boardman, same thing happened. Not a fast downhill, not particularly technical, but a farm track, and I was in a rut I tried to get out of. In what seemed like slow motion, the front wheel went and I thought "Not my shoulder not my shoulder" as I was going down, so my upper arm and face took the worst of it.
I love riding off road on the South Downs, but I am seriously thinking of packing it in, I just can't keep doing it to myself as I near 60. I've never bought a new MTB, and on a 26er Boardman from the early 2000s, I realise things have moved on massively. In a year's time I should finally have some money so have been day dreaming about what fancy bikes I could buy then, but even that seems to have been taken away from me.
I've been thinking about my tyres, I got some Maxxis High Rollers last time. They were quite wide for my frame, there is literally 2-3 mm clearance in a couple of places. Also the side wall says "Max pressure 65 psi" which I may have got too close to. The old tyres were only 45 psi, but the gauge on my track pump has packed up so I can't check. Not that I think those gauges are especially accurate.
If I have got the tyre pressure too high, is that likely to make it bounce off a rut, leading to the front wheel going out altogether? Conversely, would a lower pressure lead to a bit more give in the tyre?
I've ordered a new pump, will check pressures and try lower, if they are high. Will also try different tyres. Don't know what else to do?
This has happened on downhills, gentle to moderate slopes. I'm not a speed demon, and I have slowed my downhill pace generally. I seem to be able to cope with really steep technical downhills, the ones with loose rocks and flint, chalk, leaves, drainage channels. There are plenty of these near me, I usually ride them out the saddle but with my weight pushed back, probably got my butt over the back wheel. The accidents have happened when seated, and I am probably relaxed and not thinking I need to take care as the front wheel could go out.
A few months later I rode my brother in law's fancy full sus Trek on similar trails. It felt bigger, and it felt like I was sat in it much more than on it. A couple of times I felt the front wheel slipping out but somehow it sorted itself out.
Then on Sunday again on the SDW on my Boardman, same thing happened. Not a fast downhill, not particularly technical, but a farm track, and I was in a rut I tried to get out of. In what seemed like slow motion, the front wheel went and I thought "Not my shoulder not my shoulder" as I was going down, so my upper arm and face took the worst of it.
I love riding off road on the South Downs, but I am seriously thinking of packing it in, I just can't keep doing it to myself as I near 60. I've never bought a new MTB, and on a 26er Boardman from the early 2000s, I realise things have moved on massively. In a year's time I should finally have some money so have been day dreaming about what fancy bikes I could buy then, but even that seems to have been taken away from me.
I've been thinking about my tyres, I got some Maxxis High Rollers last time. They were quite wide for my frame, there is literally 2-3 mm clearance in a couple of places. Also the side wall says "Max pressure 65 psi" which I may have got too close to. The old tyres were only 45 psi, but the gauge on my track pump has packed up so I can't check. Not that I think those gauges are especially accurate.
If I have got the tyre pressure too high, is that likely to make it bounce off a rut, leading to the front wheel going out altogether? Conversely, would a lower pressure lead to a bit more give in the tyre?
I've ordered a new pump, will check pressures and try lower, if they are high. Will also try different tyres. Don't know what else to do?
This has happened on downhills, gentle to moderate slopes. I'm not a speed demon, and I have slowed my downhill pace generally. I seem to be able to cope with really steep technical downhills, the ones with loose rocks and flint, chalk, leaves, drainage channels. There are plenty of these near me, I usually ride them out the saddle but with my weight pushed back, probably got my butt over the back wheel. The accidents have happened when seated, and I am probably relaxed and not thinking I need to take care as the front wheel could go out.
Firstly, don't even think of giving up due to your age - I'm 61 next months and have just bought an Orange 5 29er!
And one of our group is 73 and still rides offroad like a demon (we ride mainly in the Lakes, natural and Whinlatter/Grizedale, plus 7 Stanes, night riding in Winter).
What I've noticed is that modern geometry is like night and day compared to old stuff - I know exactly what you mean by 'sit in' rather than 'sit on' and that's how my Orange feels compared to my old Commencal Meta 5.5.
Also, you may be on to something with tyre pressures, I used to ride with at least 50 and soemtimes 65psi. Since I got the Orange I've dropped them (tubeless) to 35 and it much more stable and will track out of ruts and tramlines no problem.
I would just treat yourself to a new bike - you have loads of years of fun left yet!
And one of our group is 73 and still rides offroad like a demon (we ride mainly in the Lakes, natural and Whinlatter/Grizedale, plus 7 Stanes, night riding in Winter).
What I've noticed is that modern geometry is like night and day compared to old stuff - I know exactly what you mean by 'sit in' rather than 'sit on' and that's how my Orange feels compared to my old Commencal Meta 5.5.
Also, you may be on to something with tyre pressures, I used to ride with at least 50 and soemtimes 65psi. Since I got the Orange I've dropped them (tubeless) to 35 and it much more stable and will track out of ruts and tramlines no problem.
I would just treat yourself to a new bike - you have loads of years of fun left yet!
Daveyraveygravey said:
So In July I had a bad accident on the South Downs Way, trying to get out or a rut, front wheel went from under me, and bang, there went my clavicle, plus assorted bruising and road rash. I have an old Boardman hard tail with 26" wheels, and I asked at the time if it was this and its geometry that may be partly to blame? You sit quite high with your weight over the front wheel, so once it starts to slip there is very little time to react.
A few months later I rode my brother in law's fancy full sus Trek on similar trails. It felt bigger, and it felt like I was sat in it much more than on it. A couple of times I felt the front wheel slipping out but somehow it sorted itself out.
Then on Sunday again on the SDW on my Boardman, same thing happened. Not a fast downhill, not particularly technical, but a farm track, and I was in a rut I tried to get out of. In what seemed like slow motion, the front wheel went and I thought "Not my shoulder not my shoulder" as I was going down, so my upper arm and face took the worst of it.
I love riding off road on the South Downs, but I am seriously thinking of packing it in, I just can't keep doing it to myself as I near 60. I've never bought a new MTB, and on a 26er Boardman from the early 2000s, I realise things have moved on massively. In a year's time I should finally have some money so have been day dreaming about what fancy bikes I could buy then, but even that seems to have been taken away from me.
I've been thinking about my tyres, I got some Maxxis High Rollers last time. They were quite wide for my frame, there is literally 2-3 mm clearance in a couple of places. Also the side wall says "Max pressure 65 psi" which I may have got too close to. The old tyres were only 45 psi, but the gauge on my track pump has packed up so I can't check. Not that I think those gauges are especially accurate.
If I have got the tyre pressure too high, is that likely to make it bounce off a rut, leading to the front wheel going out altogether? Conversely, would a lower pressure lead to a bit more give in the tyre?
I've ordered a new pump, will check pressures and try lower, if they are high. Will also try different tyres. Don't know what else to do?
This has happened on downhills, gentle to moderate slopes. I'm not a speed demon, and I have slowed my downhill pace generally. I seem to be able to cope with really steep technical downhills, the ones with loose rocks and flint, chalk, leaves, drainage channels. There are plenty of these near me, I usually ride them out the saddle but with my weight pushed back, probably got my butt over the back wheel. The accidents have happened when seated, and I am probably relaxed and not thinking I need to take care as the front wheel could go out.
Sorry to hear about the offs ... there are a few things going on here. A few months later I rode my brother in law's fancy full sus Trek on similar trails. It felt bigger, and it felt like I was sat in it much more than on it. A couple of times I felt the front wheel slipping out but somehow it sorted itself out.
Then on Sunday again on the SDW on my Boardman, same thing happened. Not a fast downhill, not particularly technical, but a farm track, and I was in a rut I tried to get out of. In what seemed like slow motion, the front wheel went and I thought "Not my shoulder not my shoulder" as I was going down, so my upper arm and face took the worst of it.
I love riding off road on the South Downs, but I am seriously thinking of packing it in, I just can't keep doing it to myself as I near 60. I've never bought a new MTB, and on a 26er Boardman from the early 2000s, I realise things have moved on massively. In a year's time I should finally have some money so have been day dreaming about what fancy bikes I could buy then, but even that seems to have been taken away from me.
I've been thinking about my tyres, I got some Maxxis High Rollers last time. They were quite wide for my frame, there is literally 2-3 mm clearance in a couple of places. Also the side wall says "Max pressure 65 psi" which I may have got too close to. The old tyres were only 45 psi, but the gauge on my track pump has packed up so I can't check. Not that I think those gauges are especially accurate.
If I have got the tyre pressure too high, is that likely to make it bounce off a rut, leading to the front wheel going out altogether? Conversely, would a lower pressure lead to a bit more give in the tyre?
I've ordered a new pump, will check pressures and try lower, if they are high. Will also try different tyres. Don't know what else to do?
This has happened on downhills, gentle to moderate slopes. I'm not a speed demon, and I have slowed my downhill pace generally. I seem to be able to cope with really steep technical downhills, the ones with loose rocks and flint, chalk, leaves, drainage channels. There are plenty of these near me, I usually ride them out the saddle but with my weight pushed back, probably got my butt over the back wheel. The accidents have happened when seated, and I am probably relaxed and not thinking I need to take care as the front wheel could go out.
Tyre pressures - WAY TOO HIGH. You do not inflate to or anywhere near the maximum. I ride XC in trail centres and vary between 25psi and 29 psi depending on conditions ... on 2.4" tyres. Some would say this is also too high, but riding a the speeds I do, less pressure is less grip for me. Yes I appreciate you're on 26" wheels and no detail on width but still ...
Wheel size - The game has moved on, 29" wheeled bikes are far more stable than 26" wheeled bikes. The are huge on comparison, so what they lack in agility, the gain in feeling far more stable and planted. This also means that the tyres that fit to these bikes are wider .... wider tyres, lower pressures/more grip. There are definitely more forgiving! Yes it means spending money but the bikes now are a major leap forward.
Ability/Kit - Riding a hardtail, seated at speed over rough terrain is asking for trouble. You will effectively being bucked off the bike, throwing your balance out. At higher speeds, you should be out of the saddle/hovering with the arms slightly bent and body low ... ready to absorb the terrain and react to the situation. Don't feel like you cannot take an MTB lesson from an instructor, whilst the bikes have moved on, the skills to handle these bikes has evolved.
I don't think wheel size has that much to do with it. 26" wheels have been around forever and you still see them at bike parks without folk being ejected off the bike. As above, being seated/incorrect body position on rough ground and massively over inflated tyres a likely factor though.
Thanks folks, these replies are the kind of things I wanted to read 
The offs haven't been THAT fast. I think part of my problem is I relaxed thinking not much could go wrong, but just enough did. I know about technique for the more faster or more scary stuff, but these have been happening in "transition" kind of places. Might have been looking at the view or thinking about what to have for tea...
The 26 er has 2.3 inch Maxxis tyres on, any wider just won't fit. These are with inner tubes, so I think around 40 psi should be about right; I'm 6 foot and 79kg. I'm looking forward to the new pump coming and seeing whay they are at. These got good reviews but I am starting to think they aren't quite right for the South Downs, the chalk lately has been especcially slippy and I was already thinking about this, before the crash, which wasn't on chalk anyway.
The offs haven't been THAT fast. I think part of my problem is I relaxed thinking not much could go wrong, but just enough did. I know about technique for the more faster or more scary stuff, but these have been happening in "transition" kind of places. Might have been looking at the view or thinking about what to have for tea...
The 26 er has 2.3 inch Maxxis tyres on, any wider just won't fit. These are with inner tubes, so I think around 40 psi should be about right; I'm 6 foot and 79kg. I'm looking forward to the new pump coming and seeing whay they are at. These got good reviews but I am starting to think they aren't quite right for the South Downs, the chalk lately has been especcially slippy and I was already thinking about this, before the crash, which wasn't on chalk anyway.
Like others have said, "MAX Pressure" on tyres is just a warning. Most riders run much lower, personally I'm 24Psi front and 28Psi rear, but lots of factors might make that impractical for you. 30psi front and rear is a good starting point.
That said, ruts can be difficult, if you try to steer out of one that's even moderately deep your tyre will likely slide although the edge of it. That's not to say you can't get out of ruts (but you'd be surprised how many riders don't / can't) but that's a bit of a knack to it.
Here's an 8 min video which will help.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyJm_w3dOuA
If you're not familiar, Blake is a very enthusiastic, verging on the hyperactive, Zimbabwean who lives in the UK now, he's an exceptional rider.
That said, ruts can be difficult, if you try to steer out of one that's even moderately deep your tyre will likely slide although the edge of it. That's not to say you can't get out of ruts (but you'd be surprised how many riders don't / can't) but that's a bit of a knack to it.
Here's an 8 min video which will help.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyJm_w3dOuA
If you're not familiar, Blake is a very enthusiastic, verging on the hyperactive, Zimbabwean who lives in the UK now, he's an exceptional rider.
Thanks for the video P-Jay! I am aware of a lot of those tips, especially about looking ahead, where you want to end up rather than where you are. I guess if it isn't 15% and rough as hell, I drop my guard, and that is catching me out. Together with rock hard over-inflated tyres not giving me any chance of avoiding it. Some of the ruts in that video were more like berms though, I'm getting caught out by much shallower ones.
Your never too old. Easy for me to say but I'll have to be pried off my bike I hope.
It is also very easy to lay blame at skills and rider ability, however we cant really judge that (and it wouldnt be fair to).
However - as mentioned above - the bikes, kit and equipment available now are BRILLIANT and really do make things so much more fun.
Long/Low/Slack Geometry, wider rims, tubeless tyres, better quality forks and shocks all make riding much more fun.
If you were fast forwarded onto a bang-up to date bike riding those same ruts you would find:
- Wider bars and a shorter stem makes the steering more stable and you can apply more leverage
- The slacker geometry and longer wheelbase makes the bike much more stable
- The modern fork is super sensitive allowing the wheel to track the ground
- The wide rims and tubless tyres at 25psi give you masses of grip, and conform to the terrain allowing you to ride the rut
- The dropper seatpot allows you to get your weight down low, making you more stable.
etc etc..
(In case your wondering, im suggesting it might be new bike time... or at least rent one!)
It is also very easy to lay blame at skills and rider ability, however we cant really judge that (and it wouldnt be fair to).
However - as mentioned above - the bikes, kit and equipment available now are BRILLIANT and really do make things so much more fun.
Long/Low/Slack Geometry, wider rims, tubeless tyres, better quality forks and shocks all make riding much more fun.
If you were fast forwarded onto a bang-up to date bike riding those same ruts you would find:
- Wider bars and a shorter stem makes the steering more stable and you can apply more leverage
- The slacker geometry and longer wheelbase makes the bike much more stable
- The modern fork is super sensitive allowing the wheel to track the ground
- The wide rims and tubless tyres at 25psi give you masses of grip, and conform to the terrain allowing you to ride the rut
- The dropper seatpot allows you to get your weight down low, making you more stable.
etc etc..
(In case your wondering, im suggesting it might be new bike time... or at least rent one!)
I'll add to the advice to go as low as you dare with tyre pressures. I dropped mine from the maximum rated for the tyres to closer to 24/25 psi over a period, experimenting with various levels until I found that all the advice is true. For "proper" off road riding the lower the better.
As for crashing in ruts, or while trying to get out of them? Best bet is to not get into ruts in the first place. Always stay high if you can. The shallow angle between wheel and rut almost guarantees issues if you try to climb out relying on "bite" from the front tyre. If I get into ruts I try to "lift" the front wheel out - if you can get the front wheel out the rear will usually follow even if you drag it along the side of the rut for a while. The alternative is to either stop and lift the bike out, or try to have a "controlled crash" where you put the bike down while stepping off. Not always possible, granted, but being poised/prepared for catastrophe helps.
This Strava segment... https://www.strava.com/segments/14017943?filter=ov... ...is on a badly rutted area... https://www.google.com/maps/place/Minley+Manor/@51... ...on an MOD training area, heavily used by Land Rovers and 4 Tonne trucks. I'm seventh overall on it and at one time held the KOM despite the fact I was riding a road bike on 25mm road tyres at the time... https://www.strava.com/activities/1005729862#62247... Currently sitting fourteenth overall on the same segment ridden the opposite way... https://www.strava.com/activities/961815075/segmen... ...again chasing off road segments on a road bike. Although I have (or had) the benefit of having ridden those local (to me back then) segments literally hundreds of times over 20 years living and riding there. If you want to be fast around ruts, stay out of them if at all possible...
As for crashing in ruts, or while trying to get out of them? Best bet is to not get into ruts in the first place. Always stay high if you can. The shallow angle between wheel and rut almost guarantees issues if you try to climb out relying on "bite" from the front tyre. If I get into ruts I try to "lift" the front wheel out - if you can get the front wheel out the rear will usually follow even if you drag it along the side of the rut for a while. The alternative is to either stop and lift the bike out, or try to have a "controlled crash" where you put the bike down while stepping off. Not always possible, granted, but being poised/prepared for catastrophe helps.
This Strava segment... https://www.strava.com/segments/14017943?filter=ov... ...is on a badly rutted area... https://www.google.com/maps/place/Minley+Manor/@51... ...on an MOD training area, heavily used by Land Rovers and 4 Tonne trucks. I'm seventh overall on it and at one time held the KOM despite the fact I was riding a road bike on 25mm road tyres at the time... https://www.strava.com/activities/1005729862#62247... Currently sitting fourteenth overall on the same segment ridden the opposite way... https://www.strava.com/activities/961815075/segmen... ...again chasing off road segments on a road bike. Although I have (or had) the benefit of having ridden those local (to me back then) segments literally hundreds of times over 20 years living and riding there. If you want to be fast around ruts, stay out of them if at all possible...
A calculator I use for tyre pressures suggests you should be around 25 psi rear and 20 psi front so I'd use that as a starting point. Maybe a few psi higher if you're on the road, or if you have trouble with pinch flats or the tyres squirming. You'd have to weigh over 200 kg before it starts suggesting anything close to 65 psi for 2.3" wide tyres!
benny.c said:
I don't think wheel size has that much to do with it. 26" wheels have been around forever and you still see them at bike parks without folk being ejected off the bike. As above, being seated/incorrect body position on rough ground and massively over inflated tyres a likely factor though.
This ^29er wheels are no more stable than 26”. The bike is also unlikely to be the issue unless it’s out of track.
Everyone falls off, it’s a hazard of riding on loose surfaces, but the tyres definitely won’t be helping
andyeds1234 said:
This ^
29er wheels are no more stable than 26”. The bike is also unlikely to be the issue unless it’s out of track.
Everyone falls off, it’s a hazard of riding on loose surfaces, but the tyres definitely won’t be helping
Nah, sorry but a 29'er with slacker geo, lower stand over height and longer reach is going to be much stable than an almost 20 year old 26'er. 29er wheels are no more stable than 26”. The bike is also unlikely to be the issue unless it’s out of track.
Everyone falls off, it’s a hazard of riding on loose surfaces, but the tyres definitely won’t be helping
Bikes of that era are much more cramped with narrow bars and steep head angles resulting in a twitchy AF bike. There's a reason things have moved on so much!
No ground breaking advice here but some sympathy… having ridden the SDW for many years, as well as many other areas of the country that is technically much ‘harder’, the SDW ruts have caught me out more than anywhere else! They’re notorious and definitely not easy to navigate out of if you do find yourself in one.
To echo other advice, drop your tyre pressures. Is tubeless an option for you? 29ers and modern geometry will definitely improve things, but if that’s not in the short term for you, definitely try other options.
Whatever you do, don’t pack it in!
To echo other advice, drop your tyre pressures. Is tubeless an option for you? 29ers and modern geometry will definitely improve things, but if that’s not in the short term for you, definitely try other options.
Whatever you do, don’t pack it in!
bobbo89 said:
andyeds1234 said:
This ^
29er wheels are no more stable than 26”. The bike is also unlikely to be the issue unless it’s out of track.
Everyone falls off, it’s a hazard of riding on loose surfaces, but the tyres definitely won’t be helping
Nah, sorry but a 29'er with slacker geo, lower stand over height and longer reach is going to be much stable than an almost 20 year old 26'er. 29er wheels are no more stable than 26”. The bike is also unlikely to be the issue unless it’s out of track.
Everyone falls off, it’s a hazard of riding on loose surfaces, but the tyres definitely won’t be helping
Bikes of that era are much more cramped with narrow bars and steep head angles resulting in a twitchy AF bike. There's a reason things have moved on so much!
Also, a slower reacting bike can contribute to falls just as much as a fast handling bike, it just depends what you are used to
As the OP is looking for causes for his falls, technique (and tyre pressure!) are the likely culprit, not wheel size or frame geometry.
Edited by andyeds1234 on Thursday 8th December 20:58
MarcelM6 said:
Think when I used to ride 26" with tubes we used to run 35psi. Now on 29" tubeless mid twenties.
Geometry differences in the last 10 years have made a huge improvement to stability
Same here - used to run mid 30s psi on 26" with tubes, now on 29" tubeless (2.6 / 2.4 wide) I'm around 21 front 26 rear, or a bit more for faster bikepark type riding.Geometry differences in the last 10 years have made a huge improvement to stability
New pump came this morning so I rushed out to check the pressure. It was 38 psi...
Hmmm. OK, it was cold, around -1, I haven't ridden the thing for a week and can't remember the last time I put air in it, and I haven't used the pump before, so maybe seating the head of the pump on the valve might have been less than perfect. So I suspect it was higher last week, but probably not even 50, never mind 65.
At least now I can check pressures, so will try 35 and 30, see how I get on. Does anyone have higher rear pressures, to compensate for most of your weight being over the rear?
Hmmm. OK, it was cold, around -1, I haven't ridden the thing for a week and can't remember the last time I put air in it, and I haven't used the pump before, so maybe seating the head of the pump on the valve might have been less than perfect. So I suspect it was higher last week, but probably not even 50, never mind 65.
At least now I can check pressures, so will try 35 and 30, see how I get on. Does anyone have higher rear pressures, to compensate for most of your weight being over the rear?
Daveyraveygravey said:
Does anyone have higher rear pressures, to compensate for most of your weight being over the rear?
Most peope who are optimising their pressures will. Particularly on a hardtail. 24rear, 19 front on my trail bike (2.4 tyres, 30mm rims) and 35 rear, 30 front on my gravel bike (45mm tyres, 26mm rims).
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