Converting to an "e"
Discussion
It's taken a while to get around to this - time and budget issues - but I have now built my e-bike.
The donor/victim is my old Thorn Brevet above - an audax/lightweight tourer. Quite a nice bike in its own right, 531c and day-long comfortable, but relatively heavy even before I started and at least eleventy generations behind in tech.
While it restarted my riding a couple of years ago (just before lockdown), it has spent most of the time on Zwift - at first so I didn't have to ride away from home during the worst lockdowns, and then because I had a shiny new road bike (which is now planned as road-summer and Zwift-winter).
I choose a pedal sensing kit in the end. If this was a bike for riding, I'd want a torque sensor system all the way. But as it's a low-sweat commuting alternative to the car or a moped, pedal sensing makes... ummm... sense in that pedalling, at any effort level, becomes the same as opening a throttle... I had to start thinking of this as an e-moped, rather than an e-bike.
The kit itself came from Wooshbikes, and although you could source all the parts separately for less money, I wanted a straightforward build with bits I knew would certainly fit together and work together. I went with their utterly road legal 250w rear hub kit, no throttle or brake sensors, and a 13Ah battery which they reckon gives 40 miles range - as my work is just 3 miles each way, that'll be plenty for now. A hefty saving over the larger one, too. The battery is in the larger box in the pic below, the other odds in the smaller:
Putting it together was fairly simple. The painful bit was having to drill 2 extra holes, fitted with rivnuts, into the downtube for the battery mounting plate - if I used the bottom cage mount, there wasn't room for the end of the plate plus wires etc against the BB shell. But the drilling went ok and it was soon fitted:
I hit a snag with the display/controller - it only had one mounting option and that wasn't going to fit around my bars at all:
So a bit of pipe and some cable ties bodged something up:
The next snag was that there was not enough space between the inner ring of the triple and the chainstay to mount the magnetic ring that senses pedalling. And there was not enough space between the cranks and the BB on the LHS to fit the LHS sensor. And even if there was, the BB's spindle was too wide (17mm where 16mm is the max). So I had to buy a slightly wider BB with the correct spindle size - again, Woosh were able to supply this, but it was a bit annoying as I fitted a decent quality one a couple of years back, and it's only done Zwift duty since.
It is all very neat though:
The rear wheel went in with a fight, and the rear brakes fought me getting adjusted to the new wheel, too, so I gave up finishing the rest that night:
(I've just previewed this... no the fight did not involve the lump hammer!!!!)
But I came back a day or two later and it was all in a better mood:
A quick run up and down the hill told me everything was working, but my display mount was pants, so I bodged something a little more solid, which also lets it sit on the stem for more support the other side:
Another issue cropped up as I decided I wanted my big D-lock permanently mounted to this bike, to fit its new role as a commuter/shopping/town bike. The only way to get it to fit was by ditching the other bottle holder. As a sweaty person who long ago learnt the importance of hydration, this felt like a really hard step to me - again, I had to put my mind into e-moped mode - this bike will be ridden short distances at low effort - I really shouldn't need a drink! And if I do, I have panniers...
A slightly longer ride today to check it all out and pick up a few bits - spare tube, puncture kit and a new multi-tool - as I want this bike to be self-contained, not swapping bags and bits from my fun bikes all the time. And then to Lidl for some other bits:
How it rides:
Pretty well, to be fair. The bike is a nice stable old beast in the first place, and while there's a lot of extra weight, it's all low and so the whole thing feels very planted, and corners really nicely (to my surprise).
The e-power is very noticeable from the off, as soon as the pedals have made 1/4 to 1/2 a turn, it picks you up and pushes you on. I quite like it. It does take a bit of "blipping" the throttle for slow speed manoeuvres, but it comes quite naturally (to me, anyway).
To be a decent help up the hills (6-10% generally to be worth noting around here), I need the power set to at least 3 out of 5. 4 ups the pace a bit, and 5 can threaten to hit the 15mph limit on 8%.
And talking of that limit, 15mph is just a bit not-quite-quick-enough. I'm used to doing a little more - maybe 17 or 18 - on the flatter bits on my road bike on these roads, and it's a bit odd when the power cuts off just as you're getting back to "normal". I intend to stay legal, but do think that a raise to 20mph, or even 17 or 18, would be much nicer for riding with traffic.
I plan to ride home without the motor on, anyway, for the exercise
Jobs to do:
Although I fitted a Marathon to the rear, it was such a pain getting the wheel in (not to mention how well secured the power lead is now) that I intend to add slime to the tube as well, to hope I never have to fix a rear puncture away from home.
Get some decent panniers to replace the tiny (will fit one pair of my shoes in, but not with much else) Lidl/Aldi ones I picked up ages ago and never used (they look like waterproof roll-top types, but when they have raincovers stashed in the bottom, I'm not too sure).
Probably replace the dual-sided pedals with plain flats as I can't see me wanting to ride anywhere in proper cycling shoes but not taking my nice bike.
Settling on a saddle that works for me without padded shorts. I've gone from my hard/narrow road saddle, to my old San Marco Rolls (retired some time ago as it was getting saggy... and no padding didn't help), and tonight fitted a wide/soft memory foam thing (bought but for but never used by either wife or daughter) from the back of my shelves to see how that suits short rides.
The donor/victim is my old Thorn Brevet above - an audax/lightweight tourer. Quite a nice bike in its own right, 531c and day-long comfortable, but relatively heavy even before I started and at least eleventy generations behind in tech.
While it restarted my riding a couple of years ago (just before lockdown), it has spent most of the time on Zwift - at first so I didn't have to ride away from home during the worst lockdowns, and then because I had a shiny new road bike (which is now planned as road-summer and Zwift-winter).
I choose a pedal sensing kit in the end. If this was a bike for riding, I'd want a torque sensor system all the way. But as it's a low-sweat commuting alternative to the car or a moped, pedal sensing makes... ummm... sense in that pedalling, at any effort level, becomes the same as opening a throttle... I had to start thinking of this as an e-moped, rather than an e-bike.
The kit itself came from Wooshbikes, and although you could source all the parts separately for less money, I wanted a straightforward build with bits I knew would certainly fit together and work together. I went with their utterly road legal 250w rear hub kit, no throttle or brake sensors, and a 13Ah battery which they reckon gives 40 miles range - as my work is just 3 miles each way, that'll be plenty for now. A hefty saving over the larger one, too. The battery is in the larger box in the pic below, the other odds in the smaller:
Putting it together was fairly simple. The painful bit was having to drill 2 extra holes, fitted with rivnuts, into the downtube for the battery mounting plate - if I used the bottom cage mount, there wasn't room for the end of the plate plus wires etc against the BB shell. But the drilling went ok and it was soon fitted:
I hit a snag with the display/controller - it only had one mounting option and that wasn't going to fit around my bars at all:
So a bit of pipe and some cable ties bodged something up:
The next snag was that there was not enough space between the inner ring of the triple and the chainstay to mount the magnetic ring that senses pedalling. And there was not enough space between the cranks and the BB on the LHS to fit the LHS sensor. And even if there was, the BB's spindle was too wide (17mm where 16mm is the max). So I had to buy a slightly wider BB with the correct spindle size - again, Woosh were able to supply this, but it was a bit annoying as I fitted a decent quality one a couple of years back, and it's only done Zwift duty since.
It is all very neat though:
The rear wheel went in with a fight, and the rear brakes fought me getting adjusted to the new wheel, too, so I gave up finishing the rest that night:
(I've just previewed this... no the fight did not involve the lump hammer!!!!)
But I came back a day or two later and it was all in a better mood:
A quick run up and down the hill told me everything was working, but my display mount was pants, so I bodged something a little more solid, which also lets it sit on the stem for more support the other side:
Another issue cropped up as I decided I wanted my big D-lock permanently mounted to this bike, to fit its new role as a commuter/shopping/town bike. The only way to get it to fit was by ditching the other bottle holder. As a sweaty person who long ago learnt the importance of hydration, this felt like a really hard step to me - again, I had to put my mind into e-moped mode - this bike will be ridden short distances at low effort - I really shouldn't need a drink! And if I do, I have panniers...
A slightly longer ride today to check it all out and pick up a few bits - spare tube, puncture kit and a new multi-tool - as I want this bike to be self-contained, not swapping bags and bits from my fun bikes all the time. And then to Lidl for some other bits:
How it rides:
Pretty well, to be fair. The bike is a nice stable old beast in the first place, and while there's a lot of extra weight, it's all low and so the whole thing feels very planted, and corners really nicely (to my surprise).
The e-power is very noticeable from the off, as soon as the pedals have made 1/4 to 1/2 a turn, it picks you up and pushes you on. I quite like it. It does take a bit of "blipping" the throttle for slow speed manoeuvres, but it comes quite naturally (to me, anyway).
To be a decent help up the hills (6-10% generally to be worth noting around here), I need the power set to at least 3 out of 5. 4 ups the pace a bit, and 5 can threaten to hit the 15mph limit on 8%.
And talking of that limit, 15mph is just a bit not-quite-quick-enough. I'm used to doing a little more - maybe 17 or 18 - on the flatter bits on my road bike on these roads, and it's a bit odd when the power cuts off just as you're getting back to "normal". I intend to stay legal, but do think that a raise to 20mph, or even 17 or 18, would be much nicer for riding with traffic.
I plan to ride home without the motor on, anyway, for the exercise
Jobs to do:
Although I fitted a Marathon to the rear, it was such a pain getting the wheel in (not to mention how well secured the power lead is now) that I intend to add slime to the tube as well, to hope I never have to fix a rear puncture away from home.
Get some decent panniers to replace the tiny (will fit one pair of my shoes in, but not with much else) Lidl/Aldi ones I picked up ages ago and never used (they look like waterproof roll-top types, but when they have raincovers stashed in the bottom, I'm not too sure).
Probably replace the dual-sided pedals with plain flats as I can't see me wanting to ride anywhere in proper cycling shoes but not taking my nice bike.
Settling on a saddle that works for me without padded shorts. I've gone from my hard/narrow road saddle, to my old San Marco Rolls (retired some time ago as it was getting saggy... and no padding didn't help), and tonight fitted a wide/soft memory foam thing (bought but for but never used by either wife or daughter) from the back of my shelves to see how that suits short rides.
You can buy handlebar extensions for fitting accessories like your LCD controller.
You can also get Gaadi inner tubes that allow you to replace the rear inner tube without removing the rear wheel.
I also have a Woosh kit and I found that by going through the menu options on the LCD, you can change the max speed from 25kmh to 40kmh (not that it will actually do 40kmh), this gives me a max speed of 18mph without the annoying 15mph cut-off.
You can also get Gaadi inner tubes that allow you to replace the rear inner tube without removing the rear wheel.
I also have a Woosh kit and I found that by going through the menu options on the LCD, you can change the max speed from 25kmh to 40kmh (not that it will actually do 40kmh), this gives me a max speed of 18mph without the annoying 15mph cut-off.
Edited by StressedEric on Wednesday 31st August 08:25
StressedEric said:
You can buy handlebar extensions for fitting accessories like your LCD controller.
You can also get Gaadi inner tubes that allow you to replace the rear inner tube without removing the rear wheel.
I also have a Woosh kit and I found that by going through the menu options on the LCD, you can change the max speed from 25kmh to 40kmh (not that it will actually do 40kmh), this gives me a max speed of 18mph without the annoying 15mph cut-off.
1) I have seen them, but I'd rather tip out my bag of collected bike fixtures and fittings and create something for free You can also get Gaadi inner tubes that allow you to replace the rear inner tube without removing the rear wheel.
I also have a Woosh kit and I found that by going through the menu options on the LCD, you can change the max speed from 25kmh to 40kmh (not that it will actually do 40kmh), this gives me a max speed of 18mph without the annoying 15mph cut-off.
(And my handlebar bag gets in the way of having much on or in front of the bars)2) Never seen those, though! Sadly not available in my size
3) I have all the instructions for the controller, but would like to keep it legal even if slightly frustrating. Just needs a slight attitude adjustment for my legs!
They got to do their bit on the way home as I didn't switch the motor on at all... obviously the bike is much heavier, but I didn't really notice any extra drag from the hub.
I did notice my front derailleur rubbing the chain when using the big ring though, which reminded me the new BB moved the chainset out a couple of mm, so I then avoided using the smallest ring in case the chain might drop off the inside. Adjusted the stops this evening so normal service restored there.
Barchettaman said:
Cold-set the rear triangle to fit the new wheel. That tubing should reset without an issue.
Might give that a go the next time I have the wheel off and some spare minutes... could be a while though... I added slime to the tube tonight as another protection mechanism. The wheel would have gone in more easily if I had a third hand!S2Andy said:
'Defblade' Could I ask you which particular kit you bought. I am contemplating converting an old Boardman Hybrid to a rear hub drive. Thank you.
It was an XF08 with 13Ah battery, about three quarters down this page: https://wooshbikes.co.uk/?hubkitsI used Woosh as they get great comments on pedelecs forum and the service was indeed helpful, they generally reply the next day to emails. The recommendation was to email them with a bit of info as to what you're after, and a pic or 2 of the bike you intend to use, and they'll tell you what may or may not be possible.
defblade said:
Barchettaman said:
Cold-set the rear triangle to fit the new wheel. That tubing should reset without an issue.
Might give that a go the next time I have the wheel off and some spare minutes... could be a while though... I added slime to the tube tonight as another protection mechanism. The wheel would have gone in more easily if I had a third hand!
So I'm not sure what was cause or effect; if an old tube has blown out the tyre, or the tyre failing blew the tube. I'm hoping it was the old tube, as I've binned both of those and put on another Marathon of the same age, with a brand new tube.
2.5 miles to push it home...
Anyhow, I had reason to take it all apart again.
I set the triangle out a little more, only about 1.5mm, but it was enough to help the axle slide in with far less stress.
I discovered that part of the reason it was fighting me before is that the drive side nut hits the derailleur on the way in if it's screwed on to the axle at all.
I need an 18mm spanner for the axle nuts and a 10mm spanner to turn and align the axle with the dropouts in my kit if I ever do this on the road.
I've tidied up the power wire so it's still protected by the Lizard Skin where the chain/rings are near, but cut a little hole so the plug is accessible and only one cable tie to go through to drop the wheel. I'm much happier with this arrangment all round it's neater and gives a better wire run out of the axle, while being much easier to work with on the road if needed.
If this tyre goes, I'm seriously considering trying a Tannus solid tyre on the rear instead as it seems ideal for this use.
defblade said:
2) Never seen those, though! Sadly not available in my size
Are you sure?https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/inner-tubes/gaadi-doub...
wpa1975 said:
You need E bike rated tyres, standard Marathons are not suitable
I don't see why? I used to ride this bike on those tyres when I weighed approx 2 stone more than I do now, and had no problems on them... the kit is heavy, but it doesn't weigh that much. I also used to tour on Marathons, with well loaded panniers and a BOB yak trailer, hardly ever a puncture let alone a complete failure.
Similarly, the motor puts out 250w or so, with higher peaks available, and that's very similar to my leg power, which I'm barely using when the motor is running.
And the tube/tyre blew when the motor was switched off and I was doing all the work anyway... although it could be that damage happened previously and took some time to fail.
But my overall feeling is that I'm not putting any unreasonable loads through the tyres - there are plenty of people both significantly heavier and stronger than me - and Marathons are known for being strong and reliable (and boring and wooden).
As I say, if it goes again, first off I'll be better prepared and equipped for taking the wheel out, and the set-up tweaks should make it easier; secondly I'll definitely then be trying the Tannus solid tyre and skipping "e-rated" pneumatics completely.
Edited to add: Looking back this morning, that all seems a bit argumentative... it's not meant to be... if there are reasons I'm missing, please do tell me as it may well save my ankles from more pedal bashes pushing it again!!
Edited by defblade on Saturday 3rd September 13:24
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