Bonding with a new bike
Discussion
Ok, sounds weird but hear me out…
Always liked Santa Cruz bikes, had an old Superlight on a 26” wheel which I adored and I rode for many years. Newer ones always been a little pricey for me though, so when I ‘won’ a Tallboy LTC frame on eBay a while back I was chuffed.
Built it up with some decent components, a few second hand but lots of new.
Thing is, I can’t seem to get on with the thing! Couple of rides into it now (off-road) and each time I ride it I keep thinking I’d rather be on my main winter bike, a Boardman MTR 9.0. A great bike for sure but not a flattering comparison to the Tallboy.
Can’t put my finger on why; geometry isn’t particularly extreme, everything works, just not clicked with it like I have done my other bikes. Sag is set about right, tyres, pedals and grips are my preferred options but it’s not ‘right’.
More a cathartic ramble (this is a full n+1 addition so Mrs Scruff not hugely sympathetic!) than anything else, but anyone got any hints and tips?
Always liked Santa Cruz bikes, had an old Superlight on a 26” wheel which I adored and I rode for many years. Newer ones always been a little pricey for me though, so when I ‘won’ a Tallboy LTC frame on eBay a while back I was chuffed.
Built it up with some decent components, a few second hand but lots of new.
Thing is, I can’t seem to get on with the thing! Couple of rides into it now (off-road) and each time I ride it I keep thinking I’d rather be on my main winter bike, a Boardman MTR 9.0. A great bike for sure but not a flattering comparison to the Tallboy.
Can’t put my finger on why; geometry isn’t particularly extreme, everything works, just not clicked with it like I have done my other bikes. Sag is set about right, tyres, pedals and grips are my preferred options but it’s not ‘right’.
More a cathartic ramble (this is a full n+1 addition so Mrs Scruff not hugely sympathetic!) than anything else, but anyone got any hints and tips?
I have had similar experiences. I always maintain my bikes myself, change components, redo cabling, building wheels (once) etc, so I am no stranger to setting up my bikes.
The couple of times I have bought a frameset and then built up with decent components, either known used or brand new, I have never gelled with the resulting bike.....both were many years ago, so I have not tried the same path again.
I suspect it was all in my head, but......
The couple of times I have bought a frameset and then built up with decent components, either known used or brand new, I have never gelled with the resulting bike.....both were many years ago, so I have not tried the same path again.
I suspect it was all in my head, but......
I get it and it’s happened to me. Some bikes just ‘fit’. I would say my Kona Unit just feels so much better than all the other (more expensive) bikes. However - I did need to put a different stem on it.
For me - I’m very sensitive to bar width on getting comfortable on the bike. And sometimes sliding the saddle just a few cm forward it backward can make a big difference.
So I say fettle away… and hopefully one day you will go for a ride when it all just ‘works’.
For me - I’m very sensitive to bar width on getting comfortable on the bike. And sometimes sliding the saddle just a few cm forward it backward can make a big difference.
So I say fettle away… and hopefully one day you will go for a ride when it all just ‘works’.
Other than tinkering and fettling to suit, some bikes need to be ridden differently to get the best from them. I know that sounds a Serious Bike Test w
ker, which is not me, it’s the only way I can describe the difference between riding my FS mtb compared to my friend’s.
Both bikes have similar geometry and components, and are considered rivals at the price point, but whereas his bike will just take you wherever you point it as long as you hold on, mine needs a bit of handling to get the best from it - the rider can’t just sit there and go as fast.
It’s odd, but it makes his bike feel a bit too smooth for me, and my bike feels too sharp and chattery to him. We’re reasonably well-matched for pace on our own bikes, except uphill where my bike is better at climbing…
ker, which is not me, it’s the only way I can describe the difference between riding my FS mtb compared to my friend’s. Both bikes have similar geometry and components, and are considered rivals at the price point, but whereas his bike will just take you wherever you point it as long as you hold on, mine needs a bit of handling to get the best from it - the rider can’t just sit there and go as fast.
It’s odd, but it makes his bike feel a bit too smooth for me, and my bike feels too sharp and chattery to him. We’re reasonably well-matched for pace on our own bikes, except uphill where my bike is better at climbing…
I’m quite lucky in that I seem to be able to just get on with most things - I don’t get finicky about a cm here or there, heck I’ve been riding the last month on my trail bike with only 4 gears because I haven’t got around to replacing the bent mech hanger.
I get what you mean though. A few years ago I bought a new Trek Fuel EX - based on reviews and a quick ride around the car park. It was fine but I never ‘liked’ it. This year I bought a (used) Yeti SB. it was a bit of a punt, had never even ridden one and it was quite tatty. I put new wheels / bars / pedals on before taking it out, and a basic suspension setup - I was immediately completely smitten.
Geometry definitely plays a part though, based on your riding style. Do you want something smooth, planted, playful, responsive, comfortable etc etc.
I really want a Forbidden Dreadnaught but I’ve got no way to test ride one and it has a long rear end - based on what I’ve read I actually don’t think I’d enjoy riding it as much as I’d want to. Not a puntI want to take on a 3.5k frame.
Sell it and try something else.
I get what you mean though. A few years ago I bought a new Trek Fuel EX - based on reviews and a quick ride around the car park. It was fine but I never ‘liked’ it. This year I bought a (used) Yeti SB. it was a bit of a punt, had never even ridden one and it was quite tatty. I put new wheels / bars / pedals on before taking it out, and a basic suspension setup - I was immediately completely smitten.
Geometry definitely plays a part though, based on your riding style. Do you want something smooth, planted, playful, responsive, comfortable etc etc.
I really want a Forbidden Dreadnaught but I’ve got no way to test ride one and it has a long rear end - based on what I’ve read I actually don’t think I’d enjoy riding it as much as I’d want to. Not a puntI want to take on a 3.5k frame.
Sell it and try something else.
keith2.2 said:
Geometry definitely plays a part though, based on your riding style. Do you want something smooth, planted, playful, responsive, comfortable etc etc.
Suspension kinematics as well as geometry too - bikes with similar or even identical static geometry and travel can still have quite a different feel depending on suspension linkage design, leverage ratios and damping tune etc.keith2.2 said:
I’m quite lucky in that I seem to be able to just get on with most things - I don’t get finicky about a cm here or there, heck I’ve been riding the last month on my trail bike with only 4 gears because I haven’t got around to replacing the bent mech hanger.
I get what you mean though. A few years ago I bought a new Trek Fuel EX - based on reviews and a quick ride around the car park. It was fine but I never ‘liked’ it. This year I bought a (used) Yeti SB. it was a bit of a punt, had never even ridden one and it was quite tatty. I put new wheels / bars / pedals on before taking it out, and a basic suspension setup - I was immediately completely smitten.
Geometry definitely plays a part though, based on your riding style. Do you want something smooth, planted, playful, responsive, comfortable etc etc.
I really want a Forbidden Dreadnaught but I’ve got no way to test ride one and it has a long rear end - based on what I’ve read I actually don’t think I’d enjoy riding it as much as I’d want to. Not a puntI want to take on a 3.5k frame.
Sell it and try something else.
I've got a Druid and a Geometron G1. I much prefer the druid for its ability to ride everything. I think this is because it is smaller than the G1... Slightly more old school geo. It's definitely the bike I default to. I get what you mean though. A few years ago I bought a new Trek Fuel EX - based on reviews and a quick ride around the car park. It was fine but I never ‘liked’ it. This year I bought a (used) Yeti SB. it was a bit of a punt, had never even ridden one and it was quite tatty. I put new wheels / bars / pedals on before taking it out, and a basic suspension setup - I was immediately completely smitten.
Geometry definitely plays a part though, based on your riding style. Do you want something smooth, planted, playful, responsive, comfortable etc etc.
I really want a Forbidden Dreadnaught but I’ve got no way to test ride one and it has a long rear end - based on what I’ve read I actually don’t think I’d enjoy riding it as much as I’d want to. Not a puntI want to take on a 3.5k frame.
Sell it and try something else.
Based on the numbers for the dreadnought, I think it swaps all round fun for highly specialised gravity bike.
The druid is poppy, playful, and manuals easily...but at very high speed feels less safe. The G1 is just very very very fast and stable and not as poppy or easy to manual. The dreadnought is closer to the G1 in geo than the druid.
Depends on what you favour - obvs the answer is two bikes
Back on topic... To answer the OP. Bought a Whyte 46 new when they came out. Hated the thing first proper ride out and never gelled with it. Yet in won every award that year. Hateful thing - great in a straight line off the brakes, but pitched like a bucking horse under braking, was flexy as hell on the corners. Did a parts swap onto a tuner 5 spot which I loved.
Whilst I’m relieved it’s not just me - and trust me, I really appreciate that! - it does sound a little like it might be a case of selling the frame and moving on.
I’ll play with the suspension a little more, see how I get on, but it feels more like I don’t trust the grip rather than the ride (though aware the two are related). Mrs. Scruff won’t be too impressed with another frame swap mind
Funny old things, bikes. Humans too for that matter.
I’ll play with the suspension a little more, see how I get on, but it feels more like I don’t trust the grip rather than the ride (though aware the two are related). Mrs. Scruff won’t be too impressed with another frame swap mind
Funny old things, bikes. Humans too for that matter.
Mr Scruff said:
Whilst I’m relieved it’s not just me - and trust me, I really appreciate that! - it does sound a little like it might be a case of selling the frame and moving on.
I’ll play with the suspension a little more, see how I get on, but it feels more like I don’t trust the grip rather than the ride (though aware the two are related). Mrs. Scruff won’t be too impressed with another frame swap mind
Funny old things, bikes. Humans too for that matter.
Think there might be a clue there re: not trusting gtip.I’ll play with the suspension a little more, see how I get on, but it feels more like I don’t trust the grip rather than the ride (though aware the two are related). Mrs. Scruff won’t be too impressed with another frame swap mind
Funny old things, bikes. Humans too for that matter.
Modern geo requires a much more fwd weighted position to work - or the front feels vague and has a tendency to wash out. My Geometron is the extreme end of that. Took a while to adapt to it.
Years ago, when hunting my first R2W bike, I tested about 5 at various Evans stores (back in the day where they offered them, & our company only used them).
I was amazed at how different they rode, despite looking quite similar on paper. Flat bar hybrid too, so nothing extreme!
My last one was kind of forced to be a Specialized Sirrus X 3.0, on account of that being literally all they had to order in summer 2020. It finally arrived in November, & luckily it feels just perfect for me. Phew!
Bikes. More art than science, in many ways!
I was amazed at how different they rode, despite looking quite similar on paper. Flat bar hybrid too, so nothing extreme!
My last one was kind of forced to be a Specialized Sirrus X 3.0, on account of that being literally all they had to order in summer 2020. It finally arrived in November, & luckily it feels just perfect for me. Phew!
Bikes. More art than science, in many ways!
take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:
Think there might be a clue there re: not trusting gtip.
Modern geo requires a much more fwd weighted position to work - or the front feels vague and has a tendency to wash out. My Geometron is the extreme end of that. Took a while to adapt to it.
Sure, agree entirely but the geo on the Tallboy isn’t that out there. The Boardman head angle is 66 degrees for example, and the Tallboy is 69. Ellsworth (my short travel fs) is 71 so it’s in the middle.Modern geo requires a much more fwd weighted position to work - or the front feels vague and has a tendency to wash out. My Geometron is the extreme end of that. Took a while to adapt to it.
All good stuff tho, prior poster mentioned playing with the saddle position a little too, think that’s a good idea. I’d like to try wider tyres but I’m on 2.3 already and there’s not really any space. Part of me is wondering whether the Pikes are the right fork too, at 150mm travel they’re at about the max recommended for the frame.
Mr Scruff said:
Sure, agree entirely but the geo on the Tallboy isn’t that out there. The Boardman head angle is 66 degrees for example, and the Tallboy is 69. Ellsworth (my short travel fs) is 71 so it’s in the middle.
All good stuff tho, prior poster mentioned playing with the saddle position a little too, think that’s a good idea. I’d like to try wider tyres but I’m on 2.3 already and there’s not really any space. Part of me is wondering whether the Pikes are the right fork too, at 150mm travel they’re at about the max recommended for the frame.
It's the reach that is the key dimension... Less so the HA. How do the two compare? All good stuff tho, prior poster mentioned playing with the saddle position a little too, think that’s a good idea. I’d like to try wider tyres but I’m on 2.3 already and there’s not really any space. Part of me is wondering whether the Pikes are the right fork too, at 150mm travel they’re at about the max recommended for the frame.
Shorter reach requires less fwd/aft movement by the rider. Longer bikes need quite a radical shift in weight... It's a very deliberate shift... Unlike on shorter bikes which are more subconscious as the shift is small.
Mr Scruff said:
Sure, agree entirely but the geo on the Tallboy isn’t that out there. The Boardman head angle is 66 degrees for example, and the Tallboy is 69. Ellsworth (my short travel fs) is 71 so it’s in the middle.
All good stuff tho, prior poster mentioned playing with the saddle position a little too, think that’s a good idea. I’d like to try wider tyres but I’m on 2.3 already and there’s not really any space. Part of me is wondering whether the Pikes are the right fork too, at 150mm travel they’re at about the max recommended for the frame.
Those figures - are you 100% on them? The reason I say this is because the head angle on the current Tallboy is 65.7 with a 130mm fork.All good stuff tho, prior poster mentioned playing with the saddle position a little too, think that’s a good idea. I’d like to try wider tyres but I’m on 2.3 already and there’s not really any space. Part of me is wondering whether the Pikes are the right fork too, at 150mm travel they’re at about the max recommended for the frame.
If you're running a 150mm fork then I'd expect the frame to be (static) around 64 degrees. That would position the Tallboy as the slackest of your bikes, which may be relevant to why you're not getting on with it - as has been said, the slacker the bike (and shorter the chain stay) the further forward you need to get to make the front bite.
I agree that running a Pike at 150mm is out of its comfort zone - I'd go for a Lyrik above 140mm.
take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:
It's the reach that is the key dimension... Less so the HA. How do the two compare?
Shorter reach requires less fwd/aft movement by the rider. Longer bikes need quite a radical shift in weight... It's a very deliberate shift... Unlike on shorter bikes which are more subconscious as the shift is small.
Can’t find the reach on the Ellsworth (2015 Evolve C, brilliant bike) but it’s not huge, feels less than the Tallboy at 437mm. Boardman is 475, so quite a lot longer. Hardtail Orange is similar to Boardman at 473.Shorter reach requires less fwd/aft movement by the rider. Longer bikes need quite a radical shift in weight... It's a very deliberate shift... Unlike on shorter bikes which are more subconscious as the shift is small.
Dammit said:
Those figures - are you 100% on them? The reason I say this is because the head angle on the current Tallboy is 65.7 with a 130mm fork.
If you're running a 150mm fork then I'd expect the frame to be (static) around 64 degrees. That would position the Tallboy as the slackest of your bikes, which may be relevant to why you're not getting on with it - as has been said, the slacker the bike (and shorter the chain stay) the further forward you need to get to make the front bite.
I agree that running a Pike at 150mm is out of its comfort zone - I'd go for a Lyrik above 140mm.
Yes, pretty sure, this is the LTC so designed for the longer fork, Santa Cruz recommend 130-150mm range so this is at the top end. Officially I think it’s a LT 2 as it has the stealth dropper routing but think the geo remains unchanged.If you're running a 150mm fork then I'd expect the frame to be (static) around 64 degrees. That would position the Tallboy as the slackest of your bikes, which may be relevant to why you're not getting on with it - as has been said, the slacker the bike (and shorter the chain stay) the further forward you need to get to make the front bite.
I agree that running a Pike at 150mm is out of its comfort zone - I'd go for a Lyrik above 140mm.
All this feedback is most welcome though, and interesting too, so please do keep it coming!
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