Indexing irritations
Discussion
I bought a second set of wheels for my MTB so that I could do quick wheel changes with different tyres. For the second set of wheels, I bought a new cassette but on first use, it highlighted that my chain needed replacing, which led to my buying a new crank and chainring, and then another new cassette for the original set of wheels. Ten years had worn out all the original drivetrain (teeth were like shark teeth).
I bought an original SRAM crank and chain but a non-OEM cassette.
The problem is, since I made all these changes, I haven't enjoyed the crisp changes I used to.
My hangar is spot-on (I have a straightener) and my bike is cleaned and lubed regularly but I can adjust the gears to go either small-to-large happily when they then fail to drop crisply, or I can adjust them such that they drop crisply but need almost half an extra push to get them to go small-to-large.
I wondered whether it was possible that the cassette might be to blame? Cassettes are quite complex shapes these days and as I didn't buy a SRAM original I wondered if those cut-outs and ramps weren't as well defined as the OEM ones however, visually comparing the new one with my original, it does seem consistent. It's an Amazon-sold "Boleny" which is made from stainless. I have built my daughter's 8-speed trail bike with one from this brand, and my son's 9-speed with another. Both work perfectly, as expected. Mine's a 10-speed.
So I wondered whether perhaps the ratchet inside my shifter was worn, or the derailleur itself was worn and isn't moving smoothly through it's full range but there's no slop in either, and the ratchet feels like it always has. Neither the shifter or derailleur has been changed, so I find it hard to accept it could be either of them as they were working fine previously.
It must be one of the new items and as the cassettes aren't OEM, is it likely that they're just rubbish? They were 25 quid each, so still more than half the price of a SRAM PG1030 (45 quid). The spacing between the sprockets must be right because I can get the chain to step up or down properly. If the spacing was wrong, it wouldn't work in either direction.
What else should I look at? Jockey wheels are new. I haven't changed the gear cable so I could do that but as I can see full movement in the derailleur with each click and it feels smooth with no binding, I think that would be throwing good money after bad.
Any other suggestions?
I bought an original SRAM crank and chain but a non-OEM cassette.
The problem is, since I made all these changes, I haven't enjoyed the crisp changes I used to.
My hangar is spot-on (I have a straightener) and my bike is cleaned and lubed regularly but I can adjust the gears to go either small-to-large happily when they then fail to drop crisply, or I can adjust them such that they drop crisply but need almost half an extra push to get them to go small-to-large.
I wondered whether it was possible that the cassette might be to blame? Cassettes are quite complex shapes these days and as I didn't buy a SRAM original I wondered if those cut-outs and ramps weren't as well defined as the OEM ones however, visually comparing the new one with my original, it does seem consistent. It's an Amazon-sold "Boleny" which is made from stainless. I have built my daughter's 8-speed trail bike with one from this brand, and my son's 9-speed with another. Both work perfectly, as expected. Mine's a 10-speed.
So I wondered whether perhaps the ratchet inside my shifter was worn, or the derailleur itself was worn and isn't moving smoothly through it's full range but there's no slop in either, and the ratchet feels like it always has. Neither the shifter or derailleur has been changed, so I find it hard to accept it could be either of them as they were working fine previously.
It must be one of the new items and as the cassettes aren't OEM, is it likely that they're just rubbish? They were 25 quid each, so still more than half the price of a SRAM PG1030 (45 quid). The spacing between the sprockets must be right because I can get the chain to step up or down properly. If the spacing was wrong, it wouldn't work in either direction.
What else should I look at? Jockey wheels are new. I haven't changed the gear cable so I could do that but as I can see full movement in the derailleur with each click and it feels smooth with no binding, I think that would be throwing good money after bad.
Any other suggestions?
agree, replace cable with a good quality inner and also look at the condition of the outers, if they are 10 years old? The I would say they need replacing too.
Once that is done, start from scratch setting up the indexing and it should work fine after that. I use Sunrace cassettes as they are cheaper than Shimano and the indexing is spot on with those, so I wouldn't say having a non oem cassette will be the issue.
Once that is done, start from scratch setting up the indexing and it should work fine after that. I use Sunrace cassettes as they are cheaper than Shimano and the indexing is spot on with those, so I wouldn't say having a non oem cassette will be the issue.
You're not going to believe this... OK, you might.
I hadn't got a gear cable handy but I was itching to resolve the issue this morning, so I went to the garage with the intention of stripping out the old cable. I was going shopping later so put "gear cable" on the shopping list
Before I started stripping the old cable off, I put the bike on the stand and went through the full gear range watching closely what was happening and then, whilst looking directly from behind (with my son cranking the pedals and shifting the gears) I could see that the upper (guide) jockey wheel was "leaning" when shifting. The derailleur was moving correctly but the jockey wheel was not moving the chain enough because of this lean. If I tensioned the cable to make shifts from small-to-large sprockets, the guide wheel was always leaning right. If I relaxed the tension so that the gears would drop into faster ones properly, the wheel sat upright.
These were new jockey wheels only this year. I've done maybe 1500 miles on them but they are Shimano branded ones with sealed bearings so I thought they'd last better than that. I can't see what is actually wrong with it yet. I'll pull it apart when replacements turn up.
To test the theory, I swapped the two jockey wheels over. The original lower (tension) one did not exhibit the same leaning issue and now installed in the upper position, provides perfect indexing both up and down.
Happy with the diagnosis, and taking the opportunity to buy bling at Christmas, I ordered a pair of anodised aluminium replacements which should turn up in the next couple of days.
Oh, I'll get a new gear cable at some point too.
I hadn't got a gear cable handy but I was itching to resolve the issue this morning, so I went to the garage with the intention of stripping out the old cable. I was going shopping later so put "gear cable" on the shopping list
Before I started stripping the old cable off, I put the bike on the stand and went through the full gear range watching closely what was happening and then, whilst looking directly from behind (with my son cranking the pedals and shifting the gears) I could see that the upper (guide) jockey wheel was "leaning" when shifting. The derailleur was moving correctly but the jockey wheel was not moving the chain enough because of this lean. If I tensioned the cable to make shifts from small-to-large sprockets, the guide wheel was always leaning right. If I relaxed the tension so that the gears would drop into faster ones properly, the wheel sat upright.
These were new jockey wheels only this year. I've done maybe 1500 miles on them but they are Shimano branded ones with sealed bearings so I thought they'd last better than that. I can't see what is actually wrong with it yet. I'll pull it apart when replacements turn up.
To test the theory, I swapped the two jockey wheels over. The original lower (tension) one did not exhibit the same leaning issue and now installed in the upper position, provides perfect indexing both up and down.
Happy with the diagnosis, and taking the opportunity to buy bling at Christmas, I ordered a pair of anodised aluminium replacements which should turn up in the next couple of days.
Oh, I'll get a new gear cable at some point too.
The Shimano jockey wheels aren't great. I got about a year - 2,500 miles out of the ones on my bike. XT rear mech - which I don't think has been great either. XT used to be a lot better in the past.
I got a set of alloy replacement ones with sealed bearings that have been great so far.
I got a set of alloy replacement ones with sealed bearings that have been great so far.
Tabs said:
When I've cleaned or replaced my jockey wheels I've always been careful to rebuild correctly. Most have markings on them to indicate position and direction. Did you fit them wrongly the first time, and by coincidence fitted them correctly now.....?
No - I was quite careful to fit the correct one as the guide and the other as tension - and both spin the right way, according to the arrows printed on them.To be honest, having changed them over (now technically incorrect - although I can't find any differences between them apart from one has A printed on it and other B) while I wait for the postie to deliver my ali ones ordered yesterday, although the other one is tighter than the now defunct one, it's still not great. I'm definitely getting more deliberate changes but nothing like as good as it was before I changed them.
Scoobyshue said:
The Shimano jockey wheels aren't great. I got about a year - 2,500 miles out of the ones on my bike. XT rear mech - which I don't think has been great either. XT used to be a lot better in the past.
I got a set of alloy replacement ones with sealed bearings that have been great so far.
I think you're right there - they're just rubbish. I was a bit disappointed when they turned up to find they looked no better than a 3D printed set with plastic bearings which weren't sealed despite the claim (one of the seals was loose in the packaging - clipped back on OK but hardly an ringing endorsement).I got a set of alloy replacement ones with sealed bearings that have been great so far.
The ali ones I've ordered are no more expensive than the Shimano ones. I'll try them and... well, now I've discovered another mode of failure to look out for. Every day is a school day.
The upper jockey wheel is meant to have a bit more play than the lower one to help with chain alignment, that's why they are marked upper and lower.
When I had this issue it was down to tolerances on the wheels differing meaning chainline was different between them. Had to lose the drive side bb spacer
When I had this issue it was down to tolerances on the wheels differing meaning chainline was different between them. Had to lose the drive side bb spacer
shouldbworking said:
The upper jockey wheel is meant to have a bit more play than the lower one to help with chain alignment, that's why they are marked upper and lower.
When I had this issue it was down to tolerances on the wheels differing meaning chainline was different between them. Had to lose the drive side bb spacer
To my observations the lower one has to deal with greater chain-line angles so might be engineered with enough slack that it turns a bit, but the upper one needs to have no slack or it exhibits the issues I've been having. Now that my "new" upper one has less slack, my changes have improved. I'm hoping the "in the post" ali ones will have zero play.When I had this issue it was down to tolerances on the wheels differing meaning chainline was different between them. Had to lose the drive side bb spacer
But to give your thoughts fair consideration, I've just been back out to the garage to see the other bikes we have. None of them are slack-free but all of them are considerably better than mine - i.e. they have considerably less slack than mine - that's because none of them have done the miles mine has, I imagine. You could be right. It might just be the degree of slack - my "broken" one is quite considerably slack - just about a whole sprocket of movement at the tip of the jockey wheel. Click to shift gears and you just don't get enough chain movement to encourage it to jump.
New jockeys should get here this week. We'll see how I get on with those.
I ordered a pair of ali jockey wheels and then watched a YouTuber give his scathing opinion of those cheap ones I had ordered. He was probably right too. More below.
Going back in time a little, the "Shimano" set I ordered a few months ago turned out were nothing of the sort. They were in fact BBB branded and I chose them because the normal Shimano ones use that cupped washer as a bearing - i.e. doesn't use conventional ball bearings at all. The BBB ones claimed to come with sealed ball bearings. On receipt, one of the seals was actually detached in the little bag, so I could see what the bearings actually were. Yes, they were ball bearings but were made from plastic. Definitely not ceramic and definitely not conventional engineering steel bearings.
A little disappointing but not as much as the shims included to allow for the different derailleur makes. Those shims were plastic "top hats". I re-fitted the seal and installed them on my bike, and I used them for maybe 1500 miles. Eventually, between those plastic bearings and the plastic top hats, there is now a good 15 degrees of axle play which is what has been causing my indexing problems of late.
The alloy jockey wheels were only a tenner but since the YouTuber I mentioned above described how crap they were, I chose to order a "proper" set too.
When the cheap ones turned up, the side plates were fixed in place, preventing my inspection of their inners, however they are very lightweight so I surmised that the YouTuber's concerns were right - they too must use those same plastic bearings you find in the BBB jockey wheels.
They look pretty and can't be any worse than the BBB ones so I fitted them to my daughter's bike as it matches her colour scheme. She doesn't do enough cycling to ever ever ever wear them out and the amount of sideways play is very very minimal at the moment, so they'll be a minor upgrade (that she will never notice).
Ignore the small chainring.
For my own bike, I ordered a set of Superstar Components jockey wheels and these are a huge step up in terms of quality.
For a start,.the side plates come off allowing your inspection inside. Those same side plates fit with absolutely no play at all, and they are designed to offer a double water break - although I was wondering whether I should have lightly greased the inside of them. I think I will remove and clean them, and add a smear just to further improve their water rejection. The sealed steel bearings are pressed into the jockey wheel, again means absolutely no play at all. And finally the sprocket teeth are longer, filling the chain gaps fully, which means again, no slack in the system.
Interestingly, someone out there markets a set of narrow-wide alloy jockey wheels but the only set I could find used those same cheap plastic bearings. Those bearings cannot be pressed into place which means the wheel itself often spins around the outer bearing shell, wearing it and contributing to the same failure I had with the BBB wheels.
Although I have been totally convinced in the chain retention of my narrow-wide chainrings, I am undecided whether having narrow-wide jockey wheels would represent an improvement. The longer teeth of the Superstar Components wheels completely fill the narrow gaps of my 10-speed chain already. Chain retention isn't a problem for derailleurs, and I was wondering whether there might be occasions where trying to line-up the teeth to fit into the right slots in the chain might be tedious. In practice I don't think you'll ever have to do it again after your initial fit, so probably not. But if the choice is to have a narrow-wide set of jockey wheels OR just a long-toothed pair with proper, pressed-in steel bearings, then I'll take the latter.
Anyway, they are epic. My indexing is now precise and predictable... still on that original cable too (yes, yes, I will change it).
£30 for a pair.
Forgive the finger photo bomber.
Going back in time a little, the "Shimano" set I ordered a few months ago turned out were nothing of the sort. They were in fact BBB branded and I chose them because the normal Shimano ones use that cupped washer as a bearing - i.e. doesn't use conventional ball bearings at all. The BBB ones claimed to come with sealed ball bearings. On receipt, one of the seals was actually detached in the little bag, so I could see what the bearings actually were. Yes, they were ball bearings but were made from plastic. Definitely not ceramic and definitely not conventional engineering steel bearings.
A little disappointing but not as much as the shims included to allow for the different derailleur makes. Those shims were plastic "top hats". I re-fitted the seal and installed them on my bike, and I used them for maybe 1500 miles. Eventually, between those plastic bearings and the plastic top hats, there is now a good 15 degrees of axle play which is what has been causing my indexing problems of late.
The alloy jockey wheels were only a tenner but since the YouTuber I mentioned above described how crap they were, I chose to order a "proper" set too.
When the cheap ones turned up, the side plates were fixed in place, preventing my inspection of their inners, however they are very lightweight so I surmised that the YouTuber's concerns were right - they too must use those same plastic bearings you find in the BBB jockey wheels.
They look pretty and can't be any worse than the BBB ones so I fitted them to my daughter's bike as it matches her colour scheme. She doesn't do enough cycling to ever ever ever wear them out and the amount of sideways play is very very minimal at the moment, so they'll be a minor upgrade (that she will never notice).
Ignore the small chainring.
For my own bike, I ordered a set of Superstar Components jockey wheels and these are a huge step up in terms of quality.
For a start,.the side plates come off allowing your inspection inside. Those same side plates fit with absolutely no play at all, and they are designed to offer a double water break - although I was wondering whether I should have lightly greased the inside of them. I think I will remove and clean them, and add a smear just to further improve their water rejection. The sealed steel bearings are pressed into the jockey wheel, again means absolutely no play at all. And finally the sprocket teeth are longer, filling the chain gaps fully, which means again, no slack in the system.
Interestingly, someone out there markets a set of narrow-wide alloy jockey wheels but the only set I could find used those same cheap plastic bearings. Those bearings cannot be pressed into place which means the wheel itself often spins around the outer bearing shell, wearing it and contributing to the same failure I had with the BBB wheels.
Although I have been totally convinced in the chain retention of my narrow-wide chainrings, I am undecided whether having narrow-wide jockey wheels would represent an improvement. The longer teeth of the Superstar Components wheels completely fill the narrow gaps of my 10-speed chain already. Chain retention isn't a problem for derailleurs, and I was wondering whether there might be occasions where trying to line-up the teeth to fit into the right slots in the chain might be tedious. In practice I don't think you'll ever have to do it again after your initial fit, so probably not. But if the choice is to have a narrow-wide set of jockey wheels OR just a long-toothed pair with proper, pressed-in steel bearings, then I'll take the latter.
Anyway, they are epic. My indexing is now precise and predictable... still on that original cable too (yes, yes, I will change it).
£30 for a pair.
Forgive the finger photo bomber.
I think they are the same jockey wheels I bought. Still going strong by the way. When I installed them I added a bit of grease between the bearing and external seal and they are still running smoothly.
Also, you can only have narrow / wide teeth on jockey wheels with an even number of teeth and aren't really needed to jockey wheels anyway.
Also, you can only have narrow / wide teeth on jockey wheels with an even number of teeth and aren't really needed to jockey wheels anyway.
Scoobyshue said:
I think they are the same jockey wheels I bought. Still going strong by the way. When I installed them I added a bit of grease between the bearing and external seal and they are still running smoothly.
Also, you can only have narrow / wide teeth on jockey wheels with an even number of teeth and aren't really needed to jockey wheels anyway.
Yes, of course you can only have narrow-wide on even numbered teeth - good spot..!! Mine are 11T so you're right - I couldn't - however I don't think there's any reason why I couldn't go to 12T however, as we agree, I can't really see any further benefit needed.Also, you can only have narrow / wide teeth on jockey wheels with an even number of teeth and aren't really needed to jockey wheels anyway.
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