Which all mountain/trail bike?
Discussion
The time has finally come to replace my 2004 Sub 5 with a new bike. Budget is £3k and I'm looking for something that'll do basically the same thing - it needs to fun on steep, twisty downhills and over a few jumps, but light enough for someone who's old and fat to cycle back up the hill.
I've kept riding on-and-off and upgraded various bits on the Sub 5 over the years, but it's well over a decade since I last rode a brand new bike. I've never tried anything with more than 130mm travel or more than 26-inch wheel diameter. I even had to Google it to get my head around the modern definitions of trail, all mountain and enduro.
The dilemma I've got is that my favourite part is the downhills - I want something that will come alive when I'm kidding myself that I know what I'm doing - but in reality I don't do huge jumps or drops and I do need to ride back up. With my sensible hat on, a 120mm trail bike would probably be tough enough for what I do, but I'm worried that something too straight-laced won't be as fun going down the hills. On a totally superficial level, I also prefer the look of the chunkier bikes.
There's a whole other question of whether to go for a 27.5-inch wheel or a 29er. There are some seriously tight, steep switchbacks at my local trail centre, so I'm not sure that a 29er would have the agility that I'm looking for, but there again I'm told modern geometry can compensate for that. I'm leaning towards a 27.5, but still undecided.
Apologies for all the waffle. Basically, I'm wondering what you'd recommend for that budget (those already on the radar include Bird Aether, Canyon Spectral, Whyte T-140, Trek Remedy) and whether anyone knows of anywhere near the South West that does demo days?
I've kept riding on-and-off and upgraded various bits on the Sub 5 over the years, but it's well over a decade since I last rode a brand new bike. I've never tried anything with more than 130mm travel or more than 26-inch wheel diameter. I even had to Google it to get my head around the modern definitions of trail, all mountain and enduro.
The dilemma I've got is that my favourite part is the downhills - I want something that will come alive when I'm kidding myself that I know what I'm doing - but in reality I don't do huge jumps or drops and I do need to ride back up. With my sensible hat on, a 120mm trail bike would probably be tough enough for what I do, but I'm worried that something too straight-laced won't be as fun going down the hills. On a totally superficial level, I also prefer the look of the chunkier bikes.
There's a whole other question of whether to go for a 27.5-inch wheel or a 29er. There are some seriously tight, steep switchbacks at my local trail centre, so I'm not sure that a 29er would have the agility that I'm looking for, but there again I'm told modern geometry can compensate for that. I'm leaning towards a 27.5, but still undecided.
Apologies for all the waffle. Basically, I'm wondering what you'd recommend for that budget (those already on the radar include Bird Aether, Canyon Spectral, Whyte T-140, Trek Remedy) and whether anyone knows of anywhere near the South West that does demo days?
I'm not going to reccomend specific bikes, nor am I going to reccomend my own (SC Hightower, although it would be suitable, if you could actually buy one this side of 2022). But...
I assure you, my 32lb 140mm travel 29er trail bike is both far, far more capable than any of the 26lb ish bikes I might have owned ten or fifteen years ago, an I'd also far far use my current bike for a big climb too. Weight matters a lot less than you think.
My current bike has a wheelbase knocking on for a foot longer than the 'trail bikes; I was riding ten or fifteen years ago. I assure you, even on the tightest of switchbacks, I would never, ever want to be on the shorter bike or smaller wheels.
If you are paticularly small, then 27.5 (or a mullet option) makes sense, but for most adult males, you are well into the realms of 29 being better all round for a trail bike.
Normally I would say go and try a load, but that is very tricky at the moment. Perhaps some rentals at a trail centre might help.
I would suggest the new Orange Stage Evo is what you want ( I had the 2018 Stage 4) but its double the budget nowadays I'm afraid
Chris71 said:
it needs to fun on steep, twisty downhills and over a few jumps, but light enough for someone who's old and fat to cycle back up the hill.
Firstly dont get too hung up on weight. Nearly everything you try will be heavier than your Sub 5. That is partly a function of what comes below - there is simply 'more' bike. I assure you, my 32lb 140mm travel 29er trail bike is both far, far more capable than any of the 26lb ish bikes I might have owned ten or fifteen years ago, an I'd also far far use my current bike for a big climb too. Weight matters a lot less than you think.
Chris71 said:
With my sensible hat on, a 120mm trail bike would probably be tough enough for what I do, but I'm worried that something too straight-laced won't be as fun going down the hills. On a totally superficial level, I also prefer the look of the chunkier bikes
A modern long low slack 120mm bike is incredibly competent - a function of the geometry, big wheels, power of the brakes and quality of the damping. Honestly - my 140mm bike now I am positive is faster and downhill singletrack than my old full on DH bike due to the above. Chris71 said:
There's a whole other question of whether to go for a 27.5-inch wheel or a 29er. There are some seriously tight, steep switchbacks at my local trail centre, so I'm not sure that a 29er would have the agility that I'm looking for, but there again I'm told modern geometry can compensate for that. I'm leaning towards a 27.5, but still undecided.
Again, dont fall too easily for the '29s dont go round corners' nonsense. You will find 27.5 rides better than your Sub5. It will take some getting used to. a 29" wheel will take even more getting used too, but honestly is better in every way. My current bike has a wheelbase knocking on for a foot longer than the 'trail bikes; I was riding ten or fifteen years ago. I assure you, even on the tightest of switchbacks, I would never, ever want to be on the shorter bike or smaller wheels.
If you are paticularly small, then 27.5 (or a mullet option) makes sense, but for most adult males, you are well into the realms of 29 being better all round for a trail bike.
Normally I would say go and try a load, but that is very tricky at the moment. Perhaps some rentals at a trail centre might help.
I would suggest the new Orange Stage Evo is what you want ( I had the 2018 Stage 4) but its double the budget nowadays I'm afraid
snotrag said:
I'm not going to reccomend specific bikes, nor am I going to reccomend my own (although it would be suitable, if you could actually buy one this side of 2022). But...
I assure you, my 32lb 140mm travel 29er trail bike is both far, far more capable than any of the 26lb ish bikes I might have owned ten or fifteen years ago, an I'd also far far use my current bike for a big climb too. Weight matters a lot less than you think.
My current bike has a wheelbase knocking on for a foot longer than the 'trail bikes; I was riding ten or fifteen years ago. I assure you, even on the tightest of switchbacks, I would never, ever want to be on the shorter bike or smaller wheels.
If you are paticularly small, then 27.5 (or a mullet option) makes sense, but for most adult males, you are well into the realms of 29 being better all round for a trail bike.
Normally I would say go and try a load, but that is very tricky at the moment. Perhaps some rentals at a trail centre might help.
I would suggest the new Orange Stage Evo is what you want ( I had the 2018 Stage 4) but its double the budget nowadays I'm afraid
i concur with everything this man says. Chris71 said:
it needs to fun on steep, twisty downhills and over a few jumps, but light enough for someone who's old and fat to cycle back up the hill.
Firstly dont get too hung up on weight. Nearly everything you try will be heavier than your Sub 5. That is partly a function of what comes below - there is simply 'more' bike. I assure you, my 32lb 140mm travel 29er trail bike is both far, far more capable than any of the 26lb ish bikes I might have owned ten or fifteen years ago, an I'd also far far use my current bike for a big climb too. Weight matters a lot less than you think.
Chris71 said:
With my sensible hat on, a 120mm trail bike would probably be tough enough for what I do, but I'm worried that something too straight-laced won't be as fun going down the hills. On a totally superficial level, I also prefer the look of the chunkier bikes
A modern long low slack 120mm bike is incredibly competent - a function of the geometry, big wheels, power of the brakes and quality of the damping. Honestly - my 140mm bike now I am positive is faster and downhill singletrack than my old full on DH bike due to the above. Chris71 said:
There's a whole other question of whether to go for a 27.5-inch wheel or a 29er. There are some seriously tight, steep switchbacks at my local trail centre, so I'm not sure that a 29er would have the agility that I'm looking for, but there again I'm told modern geometry can compensate for that. I'm leaning towards a 27.5, but still undecided.
Again, dont fall too easily for the '29s dont go round corners' nonsense. You will find 27.5 rides better than your Sub5. It will take some getting used to. a 29" wheel will take even more getting used too, but honestly is better in every way. My current bike has a wheelbase knocking on for a foot longer than the 'trail bikes; I was riding ten or fifteen years ago. I assure you, even on the tightest of switchbacks, I would never, ever want to be on the shorter bike or smaller wheels.
If you are paticularly small, then 27.5 (or a mullet option) makes sense, but for most adult males, you are well into the realms of 29 being better all round for a trail bike.
Normally I would say go and try a load, but that is very tricky at the moment. Perhaps some rentals at a trail centre might help.
I would suggest the new Orange Stage Evo is what you want ( I had the 2018 Stage 4) but its double the budget nowadays I'm afraid
Will follow this thread with interest. I am still on basic, entry level hard tails from 15+ years ago, with 26" wheels and triple chainsets. I did a 40 miler on the South Downs on Sunday with mates on much newer bikes, and it really brought home to me how much bikes have improved. That and them being much fitter than me! I just couldn't keep up anywhere; I expected to struggle on the climbs because a 17 kg bike takes a lot of effort to get up a hill, so I lost out there. I would say that ordinarily I am faster downhill, but even that wasn't the case. I was taking such a beating I had to back off and let the bike go at its natural speed. Then on the flats or the not really up or downs, again I could not seem to hold a steady pace with them.
I have ridden a 29er once on trails I know. For me, it did feel a bit more of a handful on tight or technical low speed sections, but noticeably faster on the downhills. I've had some bad crashes on the road on down hill sections, so I convinced myself going fast off road wasn't a priority, but after this weekend, I think the numbers don't tell the whole story, feel is important too. I loved the ride, but I had had enough by the end and was glad to get off the bike. My shoulders and arms were complaining as much as my legs!
When I have the money to get a new mtb, I'll try a few, including 27.5ers. It seems that the majority are going for 29ers now, almost as if the 27.5 market is being edged out?
I have ridden a 29er once on trails I know. For me, it did feel a bit more of a handful on tight or technical low speed sections, but noticeably faster on the downhills. I've had some bad crashes on the road on down hill sections, so I convinced myself going fast off road wasn't a priority, but after this weekend, I think the numbers don't tell the whole story, feel is important too. I loved the ride, but I had had enough by the end and was glad to get off the bike. My shoulders and arms were complaining as much as my legs!
When I have the money to get a new mtb, I'll try a few, including 27.5ers. It seems that the majority are going for 29ers now, almost as if the 27.5 market is being edged out?
Some great advice above. I would definitely take a look at the Bird Aether range, as you already mentioned. The Aether 9 just won a trail bike of the year award as well if you put any credence into that. I've had my Bird Aeris AM9 for over 3 years and it has been a fab bike for the more hilly technical riding I do up here in Aberdeenshire, but if I needed a shorter travel full suss I'd definitely be all over the Aether 9.
snotrag said:
Again, dont fall too easily for the '29s dont go round corners' nonsense. You will find 27.5 rides better than your Sub5. It will take some getting used to. a 29" wheel will take even more getting used too, but honestly is better in every way.
My current bike has a wheelbase knocking on for a foot longer than the 'trail bikes; I was riding ten or fifteen years ago. I assure you, even on the tightest of switchbacks, I would never, ever want to be on the shorter bike or smaller wheels.
If you are paticularly small, then 27.5 (or a mullet option) makes sense, but for most adult males, you are well into the realms of 29 being better all round for a trail bike.
Normally I would say go and try a load, but that is very tricky at the moment. Perhaps some rentals at a trail centre might help.
I would suggest the new Orange Stage Evo is what you want ( I had the 2018 Stage 4) but its double the budget nowadays I'm afraid
Agree with most of the above; 29ers are far quicker once rolling but I found them weird and unwieldy in the air, so something to bear in mind if jumping is your thing.My current bike has a wheelbase knocking on for a foot longer than the 'trail bikes; I was riding ten or fifteen years ago. I assure you, even on the tightest of switchbacks, I would never, ever want to be on the shorter bike or smaller wheels.
If you are paticularly small, then 27.5 (or a mullet option) makes sense, but for most adult males, you are well into the realms of 29 being better all round for a trail bike.
Normally I would say go and try a load, but that is very tricky at the moment. Perhaps some rentals at a trail centre might help.
I would suggest the new Orange Stage Evo is what you want ( I had the 2018 Stage 4) but its double the budget nowadays I'm afraid
snotrag said:
Again, dont fall too easily for the '29s dont go round corners' nonsense. You will find 27.5 rides better than your Sub5. It will take some getting used to. a 29" wheel will take even more getting used too, but honestly is better in every way.
My current bike has a wheelbase knocking on for a foot longer than the 'trail bikes; I was riding ten or fifteen years ago. I assure you, even on the tightest of switchbacks, I would never, ever want to be on the shorter bike or smaller wheels.
If you are paticularly small, then 27.5 (or a mullet option) makes sense, but for most adult males, you are well into the realms of 29 being better all round for a trail bike.
Normally I would say go and try a load, but that is very tricky at the moment. Perhaps some rentals at a trail centre might help.
I would suggest the new Orange Stage Evo is what you want ( I had the 2018 Stage 4) but its double the budget nowadays I'm afraid
Brilliant summary, thank you. The weight thing is particularly interesting.My current bike has a wheelbase knocking on for a foot longer than the 'trail bikes; I was riding ten or fifteen years ago. I assure you, even on the tightest of switchbacks, I would never, ever want to be on the shorter bike or smaller wheels.
If you are paticularly small, then 27.5 (or a mullet option) makes sense, but for most adult males, you are well into the realms of 29 being better all round for a trail bike.
Normally I would say go and try a load, but that is very tricky at the moment. Perhaps some rentals at a trail centre might help.
I would suggest the new Orange Stage Evo is what you want ( I had the 2018 Stage 4) but its double the budget nowadays I'm afraid
trails said:
Agree with most of the above; 29ers are far quicker once rolling but I found them weird and unwieldy in the air, so something to bear in mind if jumping is your thing.
This is why I need to try one. I'm 5'10 so probably okay with a 29er size-wise, but I'm not particularly fussed about setting faster times (not down the hills, at least, getting the boring uphill bits out the way more painlessly would be good). It's not as if my 26-inch bike really struggles to roll over the sort of obstacles I generally encounter. In terms of jumps, I freely admit that I don't have the balls to do doubles or anything big, but I like the way the Sub 5 feels in the air over the little hops that absolutely litter the trails around here, so I'd like to at least maintain that.It's a bit further than I'd really like to go, and I'm not fit enough to make the most of it, but I'm wondering if a day trip to Cwmcarn might be worth doing to hire or demo some bikes. Virtually everything I like the look of is available in either 27.5 or 29, so if nothing else, I'd have that to decide.
Chris71 said:
This is why I need to try one. I'm 5'10 so probably okay with a 29er size-wise, but I'm not particularly fussed about setting faster times (not down the hills, at least, getting the boring uphill bits out the way more painlessly would be good). It's not as if my 26-inch bike really struggles to roll over the sort of obstacles I generally encounter. In terms of jumps, I freely admit that I don't have the balls to do doubles or anything big, but I like the way the Sub 5 feels in the air over the little hops that absolutely litter the trails around here, so I'd like to at least maintain that.
It's a bit further than I'd really like to go, and I'm not fit enough to make the most of it, but I'm wondering if a day trip to Cwmcarn might be worth doing to hire or demo some bikes. Virtually everything I like the look of is available in either 27.5 or 29, so if nothing else, I'd have that to decide.
At a towering 5' 8" I'm the wrong person to ask...but my wife has a 29er and with the right frame size she doesn't really have any issues riding it even at just 5' 4", her bike rolls way quicker than my 27.5 even with more than 2 stone weight deficient compared to me...test ride is the way to do it if you can It's a bit further than I'd really like to go, and I'm not fit enough to make the most of it, but I'm wondering if a day trip to Cwmcarn might be worth doing to hire or demo some bikes. Virtually everything I like the look of is available in either 27.5 or 29, so if nothing else, I'd have that to decide.
Chris71 said:
So, I'm forming a shortlist. Could maybe go fractionally over £3k, but not significantly (for a fully built bike with pedals etc.) So far I have:
Canyon Spectral
Bird Aether
Trek Remedy
Whyte T-140
YT Jeffsy
Vitus Escarpe
Any obvious ones that I've missed?
Have you checked you can actually get them? Canyon Spectral
Bird Aether
Trek Remedy
Whyte T-140
YT Jeffsy
Vitus Escarpe
Any obvious ones that I've missed?
I'd check out Radon, whatever the current Alloy Stumpjumper option is (Stumpjumper Evo most likely best for you), Sonder EVOL, Vitus Escarpe, Norco...
Just have a read through all the recent grouptests in MBR, What MTB, MBUK, Pinkbike etc.
Chris71 said:
So, I'm forming a shortlist. Could maybe go fractionally over £3k, but not significantly (for a fully built bike with pedals etc.) So far I have:
Canyon Spectral
Bird Aether
Trek Remedy
Whyte T-140
YT Jeffsy
Vitus Escarpe
Any obvious ones that I've missed?
I would be looking here too...Canyon Spectral
Bird Aether
Trek Remedy
Whyte T-140
YT Jeffsy
Vitus Escarpe
Any obvious ones that I've missed?
Counter position, I'm 6'1" and find 29's dull and boring, I much prefer 27.5, as for rolling faster, my 27.5 on Hope Pro 4 rolls quicker than any of my mates on 29's. That being said I have a strong interest in trying a mullet set up.
I'd also suggest finding a bike in 2021 will be nearly impossible, and getting a deal on one even harder. If you could wait it our I'd give it a year before buying a bike.
I'd also suggest finding a bike in 2021 will be nearly impossible, and getting a deal on one even harder. If you could wait it our I'd give it a year before buying a bike.
I think your biggest issue will be actually getting hold of a new bike at the moment.
A friend has a Bird Aether on order but isn’t totally sure when it’s actually going to land. Bird’s get really good reviews and the customer service is good too.
I’ve personally found myself in the 27.5 camp, but that’s mainly because they feel better in the air to me and I spend too much time mucking about on jumps etc.
Norco make some good value bikes but I’m not sure what the stock situation is like these days.
A friend has a Bird Aether on order but isn’t totally sure when it’s actually going to land. Bird’s get really good reviews and the customer service is good too.
I’ve personally found myself in the 27.5 camp, but that’s mainly because they feel better in the air to me and I spend too much time mucking about on jumps etc.
Norco make some good value bikes but I’m not sure what the stock situation is like these days.
missing the VR6 said:
Counter position, I'm 6'1" and find 29's dull and boring, I much prefer 27.5, as for rolling faster, my 27.5 on Hope Pro 4 rolls quicker than any of my mates on 29's. That being said I have a strong interest in trying a mullet set up.
I'd also suggest finding a bike in 2021 will be nearly impossible, and getting a deal on one even harder. If you could wait it our I'd give it a year before buying a bike.
My wife has Hope Pro 4's (on her 27.5 bike), and they are good...but either your mates are all feather weights and have the worst 29er wheel sets ever, or you are just a much better rider then them to lose the main advantage of larger wheels I'd also suggest finding a bike in 2021 will be nearly impossible, and getting a deal on one even harder. If you could wait it our I'd give it a year before buying a bike.
I know I am an heretic but if you prefer the downhill bits I would consider spending more and go emtb.
I am (was) a very traditional mtber but you get 95% of the fun but 5 times as often. Even the climbs are fun and you can modulate the amount of work you do.
But for 50% more money in this market. Worth every penny IME.
I am (was) a very traditional mtber but you get 95% of the fun but 5 times as often. Even the climbs are fun and you can modulate the amount of work you do.
But for 50% more money in this market. Worth every penny IME.
trails said:
My wife has Hope Pro 4's (on her 27.5 bike), and they are good...but either your mates are all feather weights and have the worst 29er wheel sets ever, or you are just a much better rider then them to lose the main advantage of larger wheels
I'd say it's more to do with it takes longer for them to get up to speed due to the greater circumference so I pull away quickly and there aren't long enough sections of trail for them to catch up, perhaps on a longer open trail or fire road they'd catch up. We're all fairly even in terms of ability. missing the VR6 said:
I'd say it's more to do with it takes longer for them to get up to speed due to the greater circumference so I pull away quickly and there aren't long enough sections of trail for them to catch up, perhaps on a longer open trail or fire road they'd catch up. We're all fairly even in terms of ability.
If you start first everyone behind you will always have a disadvantage and unless you are a significantly better rider it's typically quite challenging to catch anyone up...try starting at the same time on a fire road without pedalling and see what happens.I'm not a fan of the 29er riding experience, but the faster rolling speed and roll-over ability is undeniable
snotrag said:
Have you checked you can actually get them?
Nope, and I'm aware that is going to be an issue. My plan was to look at what's out there -> then narrow it down to ones I think I might actually want to spend £3,000 on (it's over a decade since I've spent that much on a car, let alone a bike!) -> then see if any of them are available.
I'm planning a trip to Bike Park Wales in September. It's not the end of the world if I have to take the Sub 5, but it would be nice to have the new bike by then.
Court_S said:
I’ve personally found myself in the 27.5 camp, but that’s mainly because they feel better in the air to me and I spend too much time mucking about on jumps etc.
Yeah, that's the sort of thing I'm thinking about. For what it's worth, everyone I've spoken to who rides locally to me recommended a 27.5, including the guy who runs the local bike shop. I can see the argument that I'm going to have to adapt to either (coming from 26) so might as well adapt to 29 if that's the next big thing, but I'm unsure.nickfrog said:
I know I am an heretic but if you prefer the downhill bits I would consider spending more and go emtb.
I am (was) a very traditional mtber but you get 95% of the fun but 5 times as often. Even the climbs are fun and you can modulate the amount of work you do.
But for 50% more money in this market. Worth every penny IME.
I vaguely considered this. I know people far fitter than me who've gone over to e-mtbs and never looked back, but personally I think I'm going to give it one more generation before making the switch. I'm 38 now and I was never a competitive XC rider or anything, so with a bit of training I reckon I could get back to covering as much ground in a morning as I used to in my 20s. That's far enough for me, I reckon. I am (was) a very traditional mtber but you get 95% of the fun but 5 times as often. Even the climbs are fun and you can modulate the amount of work you do.
But for 50% more money in this market. Worth every penny IME.
The other thing is price - my current budget wouldn't go very far in an e-mtb, but I suspect they'll be cheaper and more widespread by the time I come to replace the next bike. For now, I want to do one more unassisted bike.
Chris71 said:
I vaguely considered this. I know people far fitter than me who've gone over to e-mtbs and never looked back, but personally I think I'm going to give it one more generation before making the switch. I'm 38 now and I was never a competitive XC rider or anything, so with a bit of training I reckon I could get back to covering as much ground in a morning as I used to in my 20s. That's far enough for me, I reckon.
The other thing is price - my current budget wouldn't go very far in an e-mtb, but I suspect they'll be cheaper and more widespread by the time I come to replace the next bike. For now, I want to do one more unassisted bike.
That makes an awful lot of sense Chris. I only switched last year at 51. Besides, prices have gone mental for 2021 compared to even a year ago. It's urgent to wait in your case. The other thing is price - my current budget wouldn't go very far in an e-mtb, but I suspect they'll be cheaper and more widespread by the time I come to replace the next bike. For now, I want to do one more unassisted bike.
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