TT Position/Setup

[BlueComet]

Hi all,

Image 1 shows Ian Cammish in a slammed position ie no spacers under the arm pads

Image 2 shows Van Aert with a substantial amount of spacers.

My question is why use the spacers given logically it makes you less aero? I'm obviously missing something.

[addey]

Well its not quite as simple as saying lower = faster. That are lots of other factors that will determine how aero a position is. Although Cammish is undoubtedly a TT legend, you won't see many TTers riding that kind of a position these days, and bear in mind that many domestic TTers will have done aero testing or been to the windtunnel to optomise their position. Its all about having the hands up these days

Also Van Aert is not a TT specialist so is unlikely to have an overly aggressive position. And the geometry of the 2 bikes is probably very different so the arm positions may not actually be as different as you think.

[IroningMan]

Yep. The Cammish pic looks pretty old - that's an aluminium framed Planet-X Stealth, I think, last made in about 2005?

The older frame has a less steep seatpost, but there's a bigger difference in the front ends, with Van Aert's Bianchi mounting the base bar flush with the top tube whereas The Planet-X puts it on a conventional stem with some headset spacers and a few degrees of rise: the net result is that Van Aert's elbows aren't actually all that much higher above the front axle line than Cammish's.

The old Planet-X aerobars also fix the armrests at much the same height as the base bar and forcing a different kind of compromise between climbing and tuck positions, whereas newer designs allow more separation and also enable the extensions and armrests to be set-up with a different angle of attack to that of the base bar, which can remain horizontal. Tilting the extensions seems to give some riders a better balance between aero, sustainability, control and power output - and a Pro Tour rider will also likely have had the benefit of wind tunnel time.

[BlueComet]

Thanks for the replies very interesting.

I can see the similarity a bit more closely now - both photos show knee height in line with the bottom of the elbow.

My personal TT position is more like Cammish's and I've found lower is better. Suppose it might be worth playing around with a few setups (adjustment and cockpit type) and see if there are bigger gains to be made.

[anonymous-user]

look how seriously people like Matt Bottrill take position and how much faster it can make riders he works with

A wind tunnel session with someone who knows what they are doing is likely a good investment for someone interested in winning significant TTs

It’s an area that has come on a lot since that Cammish photo

[BlueComet]

@ Okgo out of interest are you able to share pictures of the position you use to run? I've heard whisperings that you were sub 19 for a 10TT.

[frisbee]

The perspective of the Wout Van Aert photo distorts his position. His position is fairly typical, modern TT bikes all have the high TT bar risers.

He is a world class time trialist, he beat the world hour record holder recently in the Belgium national championships and Tom Domoulin by almost a minute in a short time trial in the Critérium du Dauphiné last year.

[Dannbodge]

It's because having your arms up infront of your space makes your frontal area smaller.

The smaller your frontal area, the more aero you'll be.

[lufbramatt]

IIRC the UCI have some rules about how much rise the bars can have so that the forearms are horizontal, so you might see different positions for non-uci events where raised up hands might be more aerodynamic. Plus for non-TT specialists a less aggressive position might mean they can sustain higher watts for longer, offsetting the aero gains.

[Matt_N]

I’ve definitely noticed the change in position trend over the last few seasons of TT’ing with a move to a more arms / hands high aka the mantis, which helps to create a forward bubble for the head and shoulders to sit in and overall reduce drag.

I’m kind of in between at present, I have a Trinity with non integrated stem, Profile base bar and some stack under my ski bend extensions.

Over winter I am going to switch to some USE 40d and fit angled pad spacers to try out a more mantis like set up. It’s all a bit hit and miss without a wind tunnel

I’ve got pics but am afraid of the ridicule

[Polite M135 driver]

they've gone so fast their shoes have melted and gone all smooth, I hope they'll be able to get them off.

[BlueComet]

Matt_N said:

I’ve got pics but am afraid of the ridicule

You can't say that and then not post them

[frisbee]

BlueComet said:

Matt_N said:

I’ve got pics but am afraid of the ridicule

You can't say that and then not post them

Unless its in the style of the naked Chris Froome on a bike pic!

[okgo]

BlueComet said:

@ Okgo out of interest are you able to share pictures of the position you use to run? I've heard whisperings that you were sub 19 for a 10TT.

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-X9GvvjvFeq8/V8QHLgpImFI...

It generally looked like that in varying forms, not the most flattering colour that blue - though I can't find any from 2017 which is arguably when I was going quickest, but I think I never changed the position hugely, more just little adjustments, and slowly but surely I probably was about 50W more aero after a few years of tweaks.

I was never that aero though to be honest, most of the 18 min rides I did needed 400W, I did do a couple of testing sessions but in the quite early days of Aerocoach existing. I would imagine I could probably find a fair bit more with modern testing, but I've not ridden a TT in about 3 years. Its clearly possible for bigger guys to get aero too, Dan Bigham isn't particularly small, and I think I actually beat him at a national ten a few years back, but he then went on the aero offensive and now is supremely slippery (and has a fair few watts to play with) and obviously his times back that up.

Edited by okgo on Thursday 27th August 17:32

[BlueComet]

okgo said:

BlueComet said:

@ Okgo out of interest are you able to share pictures of the position you use to run? I've heard whisperings that you were sub 19 for a 10TT.

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-X9GvvjvFeq8/V8QHLgpImFI...

It generally looked like that in varying forms, not the most flattering colour that blue - though I can't find any from 2017 which is arguably when I was going quickest, but I think I never changed the position hugely, more just little adjustments, and slowly but surely I probably was about 50W more aero after a few years of tweaks.

I was never that aero though to be honest, most of the 18 min rides I did needed 400W, I did do a couple of testing sessions but in the quite early days of Aerocoach existing. I would imagine I could probably find a fair bit more with modern testing, but I've not ridden a TT in about 3 years. Its clearly possible for bigger guys to get aero too, Dan Bigham isn't particularly small, and I think I actually beat him at a national ten a few years back, but he then went on the aero offensive and now is supremely slippery (and has a fair few watts to play with) and obviously his times back that up.

Edited by okgo on Thursday 27th August 17:32

Thanks for the reply Very impressive watts and times you have achieved. Now all I need to do is a 'Racing Point' and copy your successful setup

With regards to my original post and question, it's interesting looking at your photo as without the spacers under your armrests I can imagine the hip angle would be insanely tight.

Edited by BlueComet on Thursday 27th August 19:36

[frisbee]

Of current riders Remco Evenepoel is supposed to be very aerodynamic. He seems to be able to get his head very low.

Plus he's tiny and powerful.

[okgo]

BlueComet said:

Thanks for the reply Very impressive watts and times you have achieved. Now all I need to do is a 'Racing Point' and copy your successful setup

With regards to my original post and question, it's interesting looking at your photo as without the spacers under your armrests I can imagine the hip angle would be insanely tight.

Edited by BlueComet on Thursday 27th August 19:36

Yep, that’s a medium speed concept with a fairly low rise (not the lowest) stem. I’m just under 6,1 so it’s a smallish bike for me, did try going lower and it did limit the power.

There was a school of thought back then that everything lower was better. So low stack pedal, low saddle, longer cranks etc. Who knows what the aero lot do now!

[okgo]

frisbee said:

Of current riders Remco Evenepoel is supposed to be very aerodynamic. He seems to be able to get his head very low.

Plus he's tiny and powerful.

I think it’s the last line. Midget with huge watts. Will go fast on any bike.

[anonymous-user]

Would Remco be faster, slower, or the same without whatever it was he had in his pocket that Davide Bramati seemed so keen to remove in this video?

https://twitter.com/CyclingTodayEn/status/12983439...

[frisbee]

JPJPJP said:

Would Remco be faster, slower, or the same without whatever it was he had in his pocket that Davide Bramati seemed so keen to remove in this video?

https://twitter.com/CyclingTodayEn/status/12983439...

Its probably his team mate's race number.