Trainer/Zwift Question
Discussion
Firstly if there is already a thread that has this information, please feel free to direct me to it. I had a quick look using search, but could not find specifically what I was looking for.
Note - I have never used a Trainer of Zwift before, so some of these questions may be fairly obvious. Also I do not live in UK, and indoor trainers are like rocking horse poo, and very expensive. It is now getting too hot for me to go out on the bike, and the Covid curfews we have here are changeable, sometimes limiting a 05:00 start, so am looking at some indoor options, and Zwift does appeal to me too as an incentive to actually use.
My understanding is that there are classic trainers, and SMART trainers, and I can see that Zwift gives a compatibility check on their website. https://zwift.com/hardware
The two trainers I have seen for sale (2nd hand) are:-
Now I understand that you need Speed/Cadence sensors, and this is where I am a little confused. I think the Elite comes with everything I need. The Jet Black I am not sure what else I need (if anything). How do these sensors work, and where are they installed so I can check on whatever I buy (particularly if the Jet Black).
What will I miss with Zwift if I use the Classic rather than the Smart? What does Z-Power/Estimated Power mean?
My thought on how the setup works is I have the trainer with the bike mounted to it, the sensors on the bike/trainer, and the sensors will connect to a Tablet (I will use a W2k10 Surface GO) that will stream/connect to TV. Is it that simple?!
I am going to do some more investigation myself, but I do appreciate the views of fellow PHers, so if anyone can add anything, it would be appreciated.
Note - I have never used a Trainer of Zwift before, so some of these questions may be fairly obvious. Also I do not live in UK, and indoor trainers are like rocking horse poo, and very expensive. It is now getting too hot for me to go out on the bike, and the Covid curfews we have here are changeable, sometimes limiting a 05:00 start, so am looking at some indoor options, and Zwift does appeal to me too as an incentive to actually use.
My understanding is that there are classic trainers, and SMART trainers, and I can see that Zwift gives a compatibility check on their website. https://zwift.com/hardware
The two trainers I have seen for sale (2nd hand) are:-
- Classic - Jet Black Z1 Pro Fluid Turbo Trainer - £380
- Smart - Eite Turbo Muin (with compatible cassette for Shimano which I have) - £600
Now I understand that you need Speed/Cadence sensors, and this is where I am a little confused. I think the Elite comes with everything I need. The Jet Black I am not sure what else I need (if anything). How do these sensors work, and where are they installed so I can check on whatever I buy (particularly if the Jet Black).
What will I miss with Zwift if I use the Classic rather than the Smart? What does Z-Power/Estimated Power mean?
My thought on how the setup works is I have the trainer with the bike mounted to it, the sensors on the bike/trainer, and the sensors will connect to a Tablet (I will use a W2k10 Surface GO) that will stream/connect to TV. Is it that simple?!
I am going to do some more investigation myself, but I do appreciate the views of fellow PHers, so if anyone can add anything, it would be appreciated.
I don't think the Muin provides controllable resistance. It's a fluid trainer that It reports power. It's marginally better than a completely dumb trainer but you aren't going to have resistance that changes when you start going up hill or erg mode.
£600 is a slightly insane price for one.
£600 is a slightly insane price for one.
Your questions about setup etc are answered on the Zwift support page so I'll leave those for your own research.
With the turbo - Elite used to have a *ridiculous* naming convention such that they sold the Turbo Muin, Turbo Muin II, Turbo Muin Smart B+ and Real Turbo Muin at the same time.
Turbo Muin is literally just a provider of resistance - you'll need a speed/cadence sensor on the bike to talk to Zwift and it will be pretty inaccurate and quite a disappointing experience. They are predominantly black in colour.
Turbo Muin II can accept a "Misuro B+" bolt on ANT+ FEC module so that it can talk directly to Zwift and give a rough approximation of how much power you're putting out (based on pre-programmed curves, which are accurate to within +-10%). This will give a better experience but you'll need to counter-intuitively select a larger gear if you want to properly simulate uphills. They are predominantly black and red in colour.
Turbo Muin Smart B+ is the same as a Turbo Muin II with a Misuro B+ sensor already attached.
Real Turbo Muin is fully controllable, so not only does it report your power to Zwift, it listens for gradient changes and adjusts resistance accordingly. I had one for a couple of years, it was a decent turbo, but vastly inferior to the Wahoo Kickr Core which replaced it. They are predominantly white in colour.
So - first question is, which of the above are you buying??!
All of the above are 4-5 years old so for the money you're paying I think you'd be a little disappointed. Is it possible to buy in the UK and have someone ship to you as a "gift"? Or do you get stung for customs charges nonetheless?
With the turbo - Elite used to have a *ridiculous* naming convention such that they sold the Turbo Muin, Turbo Muin II, Turbo Muin Smart B+ and Real Turbo Muin at the same time.
Turbo Muin is literally just a provider of resistance - you'll need a speed/cadence sensor on the bike to talk to Zwift and it will be pretty inaccurate and quite a disappointing experience. They are predominantly black in colour.
Turbo Muin II can accept a "Misuro B+" bolt on ANT+ FEC module so that it can talk directly to Zwift and give a rough approximation of how much power you're putting out (based on pre-programmed curves, which are accurate to within +-10%). This will give a better experience but you'll need to counter-intuitively select a larger gear if you want to properly simulate uphills. They are predominantly black and red in colour.
Turbo Muin Smart B+ is the same as a Turbo Muin II with a Misuro B+ sensor already attached.
Real Turbo Muin is fully controllable, so not only does it report your power to Zwift, it listens for gradient changes and adjusts resistance accordingly. I had one for a couple of years, it was a decent turbo, but vastly inferior to the Wahoo Kickr Core which replaced it. They are predominantly white in colour.
So - first question is, which of the above are you buying??!
All of the above are 4-5 years old so for the money you're paying I think you'd be a little disappointed. Is it possible to buy in the UK and have someone ship to you as a "gift"? Or do you get stung for customs charges nonetheless?
Usget said:
All of the above are 4-5 years old so for the money you're paying I think you'd be a little disappointed. Is it possible to buy in the UK and have someone ship to you as a "gift"? Or do you get stung for customs charges nonetheless?
Firstly thanks for the long response. The answer to which one is I do not know! However it is irrelevant as when I contacted the very helpful guy earlier he explained to me that it is not a Smart trainer as you described above, and it was sold. I found this video useful https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eg0IDDmSStw for a simple Zwift setup, and also read other articles on the difference Zwift experiences from those with manual and smart trainers. It seems there is a whole world of politics in the world of Zwift that I was never aware of! https://forums.zwift.com/t/zpower-riders-should-ha...
I think I have learned a lot today from research, and think that for what I want I should be looking at something like this:-
https://tacx.com/product/bushido-smart/
There is one for sale over here, and am waiting for the seller to come back to me. I know it is old - but something in that range should work for me. I am 44 years old, and this is just to keep up the fun side of cycling whilst I cannot ride. I'm not going to be winning races and titles! There is also a Flow Smart 2240 for sale as well, which I have just asked owner if is still available, and again I think will give me what i'm looking for.
With regards to shipping, it is possible, if I can find someone that has something and will ship. I actually purchased my road bike from Merlin Cycles, and by the time the VAT was removed, and shipping added it was still cost effective. The issue is time to ship at this strange time. Garmin (who seem to distribute TACX) want 8 weeks to ship!
If anyone knows of something similar to the Bushido above, and a UK company that will withhold VAT, and deliver to UAE within 7-10 days, then please let me know.
Both of what you have posted (Bushido and Flow) would be good options. I believe the Bushido can add resistance up to a higher wattage than the Flow, but for your purposes they'd both do the job fine. Both of them are controllable by Zwift, so you'd get the full fat experience. I owned a Flow for a year (prior to the Elite I mentioned above) and it was great.
Grab whichever one you can get hold of at a reasonable price and get going!
Two more purchases you'll need - a turbo trainer tyre like this because wheel-on turbos are very hard on tyres and will wear out your soft road tyre very quickly.
And a sweat guard/bra thing like this, because otherwise you'll sweat all over your bike, which reacts nastily with metal - particularly bars and stem!
Grab whichever one you can get hold of at a reasonable price and get going!
Two more purchases you'll need - a turbo trainer tyre like this because wheel-on turbos are very hard on tyres and will wear out your soft road tyre very quickly.
And a sweat guard/bra thing like this, because otherwise you'll sweat all over your bike, which reacts nastily with metal - particularly bars and stem!
Edited by Usget on Sunday 7th June 13:26
Usget said:
More info.......
Again thanks for this - in the time I posted I was contacted by:-1) The guy selling the Bushido who is in Abu Dhabi (which is currently under quarantine with no-one allowed in/out!), who has already verbally agreed a sale with someone else from Dubai for £550 once borders reopen.
2) A guy I contacted who has a TACX Flux S Smart (with Shimano 105 cassette which my bike has) for £500 - he also has a sale agreed - and is contacting other prospective buyer to see if still interested.
So that only leaves the guy with the Flow to get back to me. There is nothing else second hand for sale here. New is not looking likely.
I have tried Merlin, Evans and Wiggle in UK, but no-one has stock. I guess wrong season? If any ideas of other stockists prepared to ship that anyone knows of that would be helpful.
I have the flow 2240 and have had no issues with it. I connect to the trainer with my iPad and then Zwift does the rest. Have got a cable which I can connect the iPad to a TV but normally just use the iPad. I know it’s been mentioned about the resistance being lower but I’ve never got to the stage that I think I need a higher resistance.
What about this? Shipping via the eBay international shipping program - cheaper than buying locally!
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tacx-Flow-T2240-Indoor-...
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tacx-Flow-T2240-Indoor-...
Ebay is a pain in the arse for a 2nd hand seller to ship internationally - I know as I have been that seller in the UK!
Had not heard of that place (Sigma Sports) before, and am going to try and contact today. There website suggests that they do ship to UAE, but then it also suggests they do not! Will reach out to them today.
Thanks for suggestions.
Had not heard of that place (Sigma Sports) before, and am going to try and contact today. There website suggests that they do ship to UAE, but then it also suggests they do not! Will reach out to them today.
Thanks for suggestions.
Fats25 said:
I have tried Merlin, Evans and Wiggle in UK, but no-one has stock. I guess wrong season? If any ideas of other stockists prepared to ship that anyone knows of that would be helpful.
Not the season, it's because of lockdown. All the stock has gone pretty much all over the UK and somewhat beyond as everyone bought turbos to use at home... you could look at mantel.com, rose bikes or bike24 for shipping and stock.I'm in the same situation, looking for a UK smart trainer... I've got lots of email notifications set up, but I'm working... when I see a "back in stock" email at lunchtime or in the evening it's already too late and they've all been sold already.
defblade said:
Not the season, it's because of lockdown.
I didn't even consider the lockdown in UK affecting trainer sales. I thought you guys had always been allowed out for exercise, and so the cycles available would be limited, but thought I would beat the rush for trainers from UK before the weather gets cold. Unfortunately I have left too late here before it has got too hot!Fats25 said:
I didn't even consider the lockdown in UK affecting trainer sales. I thought you guys had always been allowed out for exercise, and so the cycles available would be limited, but thought I would beat the rush for trainers from UK before the weather gets cold. Unfortunately I have left too late here before it has got too hot!
Well, yes, as it turns out we are - but that was by no means certain/clear at the beginning, when all the trainers were bought!And there is (still?) an argument* about how ...ummm... civically responsible it is to go out riding on the roads, which might increase your chances of ending up in hospital due to a crash; and/or around driving to off road cycling areas (a lot of which are shut down anyway). Both of these may increase the attractiveness of turbo training at the moment.
*Just highlighting the discussion, no desire to derail the thread!!!
So this morning I got a call from a mate that he knew someone selling a TACX Neo (orginal) for £645. It must be 3-4 years old I think. However that came to nothing, so I decided to go and look around the various bike shops to see what options there were.
Bike shop 1 - says they will have Tacx Flux S Smart in at end of month for £625. Also will have the TACX Flow Smart for around £325. This is Dubai though - things get said that do not happen, and that is another 3 weeks minimum to get something in - if it ever arrives.
Additionally they had an old Vortex Smart that they use for their bike setups, and I had a quick go on that - more on that later.
Bike shop 2 - They had two trainers in stock. Trainer 1 is a Magene T3000 (£1,075), and Trainer 2 is a ThinkRider X7 (£860). I had a quick google whilst in shop and can see that these appear to be Chinese knock offs of the Neo and Kickr Smart respectively. Article here:-
https://thebidon.com/cycling/thinkrider-and-gravat...
I then went to Bike Shop 3 which is renowned for being the premier shop in Dubai, and they also stocked the Magene and Thinkrider which surprised me. They also had them both out on display, and I got to have a go on both connected to Zwift (first time I have used). They also had a TACX Flux which again I had a go on, but they do not have any for sale, and no plans on getting any in. They are going to stop stocking TACX and stick with the Magene and ThinkRider as they can get stock easier (according to sales guy).
Now (as you can guess from username) I am a big guy, and I think having sat on them and had a little play, the Flow/Vortex are not for me. I found them really quite unstable, and I did not like the experience of the roller - I prefer the feel of the Direct. So that pushes me up the range (and price!). Bear with me, there is some man maths at play here. So that puts me into either the Flux/KickR/Thinkrider X7 or even the Suito suggested earlier (appears to be somewhere between £650 and £800 UK pricing - so add another £100/£150 for me to purchase here), or the more expensive Neo/T3000. Having seen the Flux next to the ThinkRider they both look equally well made, and similar. Even the sales guy could not give a good reason for the T3000 over the Thinkrider for me, as I won't use the additional power.
The ThinkRider is where I am leaning at the moment. £860 for the ThinkRider that I can collect tomorrow, or £625 for the Flux that may be here in 3 weeks.
There are 3 other bike shops I will look in tomorrow to see if any more options. There also seems to be different newer versions of ThinkRider from what I have read briefly online, so I need to understand which version I would be purchasing.
Will keep you posted - but I am learning more and more every day. If anyone has any experience of these Chinese "Knock off's" I would be interested to know. Either way it looks like my smart trainer is going to be worth more money than my bike, which was not my intention when I started this thread.
Interesting I just checked Zwift website and neither the Magene or the ThinkRider appear as supported trainers, but both were working in Shop 3!
Bike shop 1 - says they will have Tacx Flux S Smart in at end of month for £625. Also will have the TACX Flow Smart for around £325. This is Dubai though - things get said that do not happen, and that is another 3 weeks minimum to get something in - if it ever arrives.
Additionally they had an old Vortex Smart that they use for their bike setups, and I had a quick go on that - more on that later.
Bike shop 2 - They had two trainers in stock. Trainer 1 is a Magene T3000 (£1,075), and Trainer 2 is a ThinkRider X7 (£860). I had a quick google whilst in shop and can see that these appear to be Chinese knock offs of the Neo and Kickr Smart respectively. Article here:-
https://thebidon.com/cycling/thinkrider-and-gravat...
I then went to Bike Shop 3 which is renowned for being the premier shop in Dubai, and they also stocked the Magene and Thinkrider which surprised me. They also had them both out on display, and I got to have a go on both connected to Zwift (first time I have used). They also had a TACX Flux which again I had a go on, but they do not have any for sale, and no plans on getting any in. They are going to stop stocking TACX and stick with the Magene and ThinkRider as they can get stock easier (according to sales guy).
Now (as you can guess from username) I am a big guy, and I think having sat on them and had a little play, the Flow/Vortex are not for me. I found them really quite unstable, and I did not like the experience of the roller - I prefer the feel of the Direct. So that pushes me up the range (and price!). Bear with me, there is some man maths at play here. So that puts me into either the Flux/KickR/Thinkrider X7 or even the Suito suggested earlier (appears to be somewhere between £650 and £800 UK pricing - so add another £100/£150 for me to purchase here), or the more expensive Neo/T3000. Having seen the Flux next to the ThinkRider they both look equally well made, and similar. Even the sales guy could not give a good reason for the T3000 over the Thinkrider for me, as I won't use the additional power.
The ThinkRider is where I am leaning at the moment. £860 for the ThinkRider that I can collect tomorrow, or £625 for the Flux that may be here in 3 weeks.
There are 3 other bike shops I will look in tomorrow to see if any more options. There also seems to be different newer versions of ThinkRider from what I have read briefly online, so I need to understand which version I would be purchasing.
Will keep you posted - but I am learning more and more every day. If anyone has any experience of these Chinese "Knock off's" I would be interested to know. Either way it looks like my smart trainer is going to be worth more money than my bike, which was not my intention when I started this thread.
Interesting I just checked Zwift website and neither the Magene or the ThinkRider appear as supported trainers, but both were working in Shop 3!
Edited by Fats25 on Monday 8th June 16:02
frisbee said:
As long as a smart trainer supports the necessary protocols it doesn't matter if its "supported" by Zwift or not. The protocols are open and very unlikely to change.
Zwift implements a resistance curve for a supported dumb trainer, so support does matter for those.
Do mind that if you get an ANT+ only trainer (if they exist), then you'll need an added £20 dongle for Zwift. I got one because it seems more reliable than Bluetooth, and I also wanted to play with ANT+.Zwift implements a resistance curve for a supported dumb trainer, so support does matter for those.
Solocle said:
frisbee said:
As long as a smart trainer supports the necessary protocols it doesn't matter if its "supported" by Zwift or not. The protocols are open and very unlikely to change.
Zwift implements a resistance curve for a supported dumb trainer, so support does matter for those.
Do mind that if you get an ANT+ only trainer (if they exist), then you'll need an added £20 dongle for Zwift. I got one because it seems more reliable than Bluetooth, and I also wanted to play with ANT+.Zwift implements a resistance curve for a supported dumb trainer, so support does matter for those.
stuarthat said:
Have a look at tacx flux good price does everything.
Not sure if they've fixed the Flux now, but when I bought one everybody was saying "don't get a Flux, they all break!". I thought "nah it'll be fine", but it failed after a couple of months (squeaking noise and rubbing inside). I bought a Neo and it has been flawless, although obviously a fair bit more expensive.Gassing Station | Pedal Powered | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff