Going Full Frontal...on Sufferfest
Discussion
I’ve signed up to the free trial on Sufferfest as a bit of a change of scene from Zwift. I see they have a slightly different fitness test from the standard 20 minute FTP (they call it 4DP) which is supposed to helpful for identifying specific areas for development and then tailoring the intensity of different aspects of their workouts to address these.
This week I’ve been doing their prep plan for the Full Frontal 4DP test and wondered if anyone had done it and if it’s even more unpleasant than a normal FTP test? And having done it, did you find the workouts afterwards more effective for improving performance?
I’m really impressed with the app and am considering keeping the subscription going alongside Zwift and using Sufferfest for structured training and Zwift for racing and social riding.
This week I’ve been doing their prep plan for the Full Frontal 4DP test and wondered if anyone had done it and if it’s even more unpleasant than a normal FTP test? And having done it, did you find the workouts afterwards more effective for improving performance?
I’m really impressed with the app and am considering keeping the subscription going alongside Zwift and using Sufferfest for structured training and Zwift for racing and social riding.
I've done the 4dp four times now.
It's a much better test compared to a normal FTP test imo but yes it's much harder as you've done two full gas sprints and a max 5min effort before the 20mins.
If you do it properly it's very tough and the first time you'll probably mess up a bit/not do as well as you can.
I did a Sufferfest 12week MAP focussed plan in winter. Didn't do a great job following it but my 5sec power went down, 1min went down, 5 min (MAP) stayed the same and my FTP went up by 8w (266-272).
The 5 sec and 1 min going down isn't an issue as it's more down to that test than my actual power decreasing. I was a bit annoyed that my MAP stayed the same though.
I still use sufferfest for hard workouts and use Zwift for races and easier days/workouts.
It's a much better test compared to a normal FTP test imo but yes it's much harder as you've done two full gas sprints and a max 5min effort before the 20mins.
If you do it properly it's very tough and the first time you'll probably mess up a bit/not do as well as you can.
I did a Sufferfest 12week MAP focussed plan in winter. Didn't do a great job following it but my 5sec power went down, 1min went down, 5 min (MAP) stayed the same and my FTP went up by 8w (266-272).
The 5 sec and 1 min going down isn't an issue as it's more down to that test than my actual power decreasing. I was a bit annoyed that my MAP stayed the same though.
I still use sufferfest for hard workouts and use Zwift for races and easier days/workouts.
Marketing b
ks.
If anyone ever bothered to actually read the Training & Racing with a powermeter book (which most zones, TSS, CTL etc are formed from) before assuming 95% of 20 min power = FTP they would remember that in that book, it ALSO mentioned to do a 5 min effort beforehand, so really not much different to this 4dp bks above.
Obviously the issues are that Zwift idiotically refer to FTP as 20 min power, and I think everything has got pretty confused because of that, and obviously the above marketing effort to sell some subscriptions.
In that same book, the other bit of advice most people forget about - get a powermeter, then do nothing different for a while, just log data, ride as you would have done, this way you have a very good idea of your power profile and what you can work on from it. All this was written years and years ago. And its all still true today.
ks.If anyone ever bothered to actually read the Training & Racing with a powermeter book (which most zones, TSS, CTL etc are formed from) before assuming 95% of 20 min power = FTP they would remember that in that book, it ALSO mentioned to do a 5 min effort beforehand, so really not much different to this 4dp b
ks above.Obviously the issues are that Zwift idiotically refer to FTP as 20 min power, and I think everything has got pretty confused because of that, and obviously the above marketing effort to sell some subscriptions.
In that same book, the other bit of advice most people forget about - get a powermeter, then do nothing different for a while, just log data, ride as you would have done, this way you have a very good idea of your power profile and what you can work on from it. All this was written years and years ago. And its all still true today.
Depending on how experienced you are, I would possibly suggest doing their Half Monty test instead. The testing of the 4 different elements is great (and brutal), but if you're coming into it with little to no idea of where you are, there's a good chance you'll either undercook or blow up on either the 5 or 20 min tests.
Half monty is a fancied up ramp test - with a heart rate constrained element after the normal ramp to give values for your 5 and 20 minute powers, plus your threshold heart rate. There's less thought required, particularly on a smart trainer in erg mode for the ramp so you can just focus on digging yourself a hole. if you haven't done training to heart rate previously then it introduces that as well, which I find to be v useful, and frequently overlooked in favour of power on it's own. As heart rate monitors are so cheap, if you're at all interested, it makes sense to use it.
Half monty is a fancied up ramp test - with a heart rate constrained element after the normal ramp to give values for your 5 and 20 minute powers, plus your threshold heart rate. There's less thought required, particularly on a smart trainer in erg mode for the ramp so you can just focus on digging yourself a hole. if you haven't done training to heart rate previously then it introduces that as well, which I find to be v useful, and frequently overlooked in favour of power on it's own. As heart rate monitors are so cheap, if you're at all interested, it makes sense to use it.
Thanks for the replies chaps.
Sounds like it might be a bit of clever marketing rather than a total gamechanger but I think I’ll give it a shot anyway. I’ve done quite a few FTP tests before so am fairly familiar burying myself to the point where my wife once shouted from the lounge and asked if I wanted her to call me an ambulance
Unfortunately I can’t do any HR based stuff as my Tickr has died recently and the new one isn’t due to be delivered for another week or so. I’ve done the prep plan for the Full Frontal this week and am due to do the test tomorrow. Hopefully I’ll still be able to let you know how it goes...
Sounds like it might be a bit of clever marketing rather than a total gamechanger but I think I’ll give it a shot anyway. I’ve done quite a few FTP tests before so am fairly familiar burying myself to the point where my wife once shouted from the lounge and asked if I wanted her to call me an ambulance
Unfortunately I can’t do any HR based stuff as my Tickr has died recently and the new one isn’t due to be delivered for another week or so. I’ve done the prep plan for the Full Frontal this week and am due to do the test tomorrow. Hopefully I’ll still be able to let you know how it goes...
Well that was hard work! Pretty pleased with the results and my FTP was within two watts of the best I’ve achieved on Zwift. Apparently in a pursuiter. Whatever that means in practice.
I’ll have a crack at one their training plans now and see if I can improve some of those metrics. At least I’ve got a baseline to work with now.
I’ll have a crack at one their training plans now and see if I can improve some of those metrics. At least I’ve got a baseline to work with now.
My pacing was pretty consistent on both the five and 20 minute tests. If you look at the graph at the bottom, you can see I increase power on both towards the end of each interval and had nothing left in the tank after either.
And it tells you to give it everything for the five minute interval and not hold anything back for the 20 minute one to follow.
But I agree, the five minute power looks much better than the 20.
And it tells you to give it everything for the five minute interval and not hold anything back for the 20 minute one to follow.
But I agree, the five minute power looks much better than the 20.
It probably goes without saying, but decide what it is you want to aim to improve. At the extreme, if you want to win the national 24 hr time trial champs, you probably don't want to spend a lot of time working specifically on your 1 minute power.
You probably cycle enough to be able to tell if the test results were right about a week into the plan that you choose. If the rides that are meant to be hard don't feel hard enough, then nudge it up a bit. If you can't finish any of the riders, nudge it down a bit.
You probably cycle enough to be able to tell if the test results were right about a week into the plan that you choose. If the rides that are meant to be hard don't feel hard enough, then nudge it up a bit. If you can't finish any of the riders, nudge it down a bit.
I got my race license and had signed up for my first road race at Goodwood at the end of this month but clearly that hasn’t happened.
That’s the sort of riding I want to be focusing on so I’m guessing targeting the five minute power and FTP will be most helpful. I’m certainly not going to make much of a sprinter!
That’s the sort of riding I want to be focusing on so I’m guessing targeting the five minute power and FTP will be most helpful. I’m certainly not going to make much of a sprinter!
lauda said:
I got my race license and had signed up for my first road race at Goodwood at the end of this month but clearly that hasn’t happened.
That’s the sort of riding I want to be focusing on so I’m guessing targeting the five minute power and FTP will be most helpful. I’m certainly not going to make much of a sprinter!
You'll probably find that in a crit those two things are mostly not that important to be honest with you.That’s the sort of riding I want to be focusing on so I’m guessing targeting the five minute power and FTP will be most helpful. I’m certainly not going to make much of a sprinter!
The ability to go hard repeatedly for a short burst, recover, then do it again not long after is generally what you need at a crit. Obviously having a higher FTP means that you'll find these efforts easier relatively, but certainly chugging round like a diesel is not going to yield great results at a crit.
The only time you'd ever use your max 5 min in any race is if it's got a long hill in it and you're doing it for the final time (or clinging on), most races do not have this. Or you're away solo near the end of a race. To get away you're going to have had to make a big short effort to then settle into your 5 min power. So you can start to see the importance of being rounded, and knowing where you are already strong, and where needs work. The only thing that wouldn't require this is a hill climb, or indeed as it says, the pursuit...
To give some life to that, I'm one of the lucky ones who can sprint, I probably could have done 1500w the first time I put my leg over a bike, that's just fast twitch muscle for you. What I was s
te at however was just about everything above 20 seconds. So that needed training so that I could get to a position to use the sprint. For you, you may find you have a great ability at shorter efforts, but to get to the point of using it, so many other things need to be improved to stick with the race to get there.Though I will caveat by sating 5 minute efforts are mostly aerobic, and to have a decent 5 minute, you almost have to be able to do a decent 20 too, so there's probably a lot of headroom in your 20 minute number there.
Not everyone has an obvious talent for a particular duration of effort. As said, for me the further above 1 minute it gets the less remarkable I am on a graph as I'm quite heavy. You will find at least what you are relatively better at in time, and you might realise that crits are not for you. For the same reason I realised that really hilly road races (though I've done loads of them oddly) are not ever going to be for me because the effort of getting very lean, and still being 2 stone too heavy wasn't a good return for the effort. So in time you will know what suits, luckily living where you do there's a fair bit of choice.
I've done Goodwood, and as crit circuits go, its pretty easy, never really need to slow down at any point and obviously its flat, but there's quite a bit of variety in the SW/SE for racing for you to find something that gives you the best chance at using what you're best at..
okgo said:
You'll probably find that in a crit those two things are mostly not that important to be honest with you. [snip]
Thanks okgo, that's really helpful insight and shows how little I know about the reality of racing. I had assumed that since the Goodwood races were about an hour, I should just target getting my FTP has high as possible so that I could put out as much power as possible for that hour!Seems a bit more research and thought may be necessary on my part.
lauda said:
Thanks okgo, that's really helpful insight and shows how little I know about the reality of racing. I had assumed that since the Goodwood races were about an hour, I should just target getting my FTP has high as possible so that I could put out as much power as possible for that hour!
Seems a bit more research and thought may be necessary on my part.
I mean, until you do some racing nothing is obvious, so not uncommon or a problem Seems a bit more research and thought may be necessary on my part.
I mean, it's never a bad thing to work on FTP, the higher it is the easier everything at almost every duration will become. However, by only concentrating on that, you can neglect the things that really can make a difference in road racing, and certainly short hard bursts with a short recovery, like 20 on, 30 off, are realistic intervals for some crits (though Goodwood be a bit more forgiving as its wide and open). But still you need to be able to respond to a big change in pace which is very frequent in a crit.
Some of the more difficult circuits have a power profile that is really like one of those interval sets. I do one near me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jui3_V6qyg that you can see (bit annoying it cuts in and out of laps, but the laps are about 2 mins long) and you can see it's basically, ALL or freewheel, very little in between. I managed to win the E12 one once a few years ago, mainly as Sky's latest signing wasn't there that week, but you start to see from the zone distribution that having a nice easy FTP effort is very far from the reality. (FTP setting is today's sadly, not the 385 I had it set to then)
If only it were that easy I suppose if you could do 400w for an hour you could jump off the front from the gun and ride away solo! Unfortunately the reality is that most racing is surge-relax-surge-relax, rinse and repeat. You'll often be way over your FTP or way under, so training for those short burst is essential. I just had a quick look at a one hour race from last summer and I pretty much spent the same amount of time in every zone from 1-6! I really struggle with that type of riding, much prefer a TT type effort.
I suppose if you could do 400w for an hour you could jump off the front from the gun and ride away solo! Unfortunately the reality is that most racing is surge-relax-surge-relax, rinse and repeat. You'll often be way over your FTP or way under, so training for those short burst is essential. I just had a quick look at a one hour race from last summer and I pretty much spent the same amount of time in every zone from 1-6! I really struggle with that type of riding, much prefer a TT type effort. The other thing I have noticed about these 1 hour crit / circuit races is that they start quickly.
From the ones I've watched locally, I'd say getting on the start line well warmed up; ready, willing and able to bang out a few quick laps from the off is pretty much essential. At the last one I went to watch (short circuit / 38 laps), the fastest two laps were the second lap and the last lap (in that order)
From the ones I've watched locally, I'd say getting on the start line well warmed up; ready, willing and able to bang out a few quick laps from the off is pretty much essential. At the last one I went to watch (short circuit / 38 laps), the fastest two laps were the second lap and the last lap (in that order)
JPJPJP said:
The other thing I have noticed about these 1 hour crit / circuit races is that they start quickly.
From the ones I've watched locally, I'd say getting on the start line well warmed up; ready, willing and able to bang out a few quick laps from the off is pretty much essential. At the last one I went to watch (short circuit / 38 laps), the fastest two laps were the second lap and the last lap (in that order)
Sounds about right. Each race has its own personality to a degree too. Crystal Palace is the most attacking crit series I've done, constantly people pinging off the front going for it. Hillingdon less so apart from Tuesday nights where its much more attacking as its just a Tues night, nothing to lose...From the ones I've watched locally, I'd say getting on the start line well warmed up; ready, willing and able to bang out a few quick laps from the off is pretty much essential. At the last one I went to watch (short circuit / 38 laps), the fastest two laps were the second lap and the last lap (in that order)
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