Keeping the power on for longer
Discussion
I'll start out by being clear that i'm no endurance rider. I race crit/road and enjoy it, but efforts are never longer than 2 hours, and more typically only 1 hour-ish.
I seem to slam into a wall when i go past about 2 hours. The most obvious thing to train past this would just to be do it more frequently, but if there a better approach?
I thought i had nutrition cracked, but today i suffered like crazy. I held 210w for the first 2 hours and then 170w for the remaining 1hr 45. It could just be some early season adjustment.
Really i'm working on something i heard last season about having a bigger base to have a bigger peak. Is that BS? Otherwise, is there a way to build better distance riding power without spending 4-5hours out?
I seem to slam into a wall when i go past about 2 hours. The most obvious thing to train past this would just to be do it more frequently, but if there a better approach?
I thought i had nutrition cracked, but today i suffered like crazy. I held 210w for the first 2 hours and then 170w for the remaining 1hr 45. It could just be some early season adjustment.
Really i'm working on something i heard last season about having a bigger base to have a bigger peak. Is that BS? Otherwise, is there a way to build better distance riding power without spending 4-5hours out?
In a word - not really.
Ok two words.
You don't need to train 6 hrs if the race is 6hrs, but if you want to be able to ride over 2hrs without hitting a wall, you need to get used to it.
If, say, you want to be able to ride hrs at 200W, your options are either to ride that distance at that power, or ride lower distances at a higher power - but you can't go over the top or you'll still burn out.
If your aim is just to get base miles but you're still not planning to do any event over two hours, there's no point in training over two hours. Sure - go out and ride with your mates for a social, but you won't gain anything from training over race distance (this from a conversation with John Ebsen on Friday eve just gone - not name dropping, just confirming it's from a someone who knows about these things).
Ok two words.
You don't need to train 6 hrs if the race is 6hrs, but if you want to be able to ride over 2hrs without hitting a wall, you need to get used to it.
If, say, you want to be able to ride hrs at 200W, your options are either to ride that distance at that power, or ride lower distances at a higher power - but you can't go over the top or you'll still burn out.
If your aim is just to get base miles but you're still not planning to do any event over two hours, there's no point in training over two hours. Sure - go out and ride with your mates for a social, but you won't gain anything from training over race distance (this from a conversation with John Ebsen on Friday eve just gone - not name dropping, just confirming it's from a someone who knows about these things).
Presumably as you have a power meter you know your FTP? Are you riding at too high a percentage of that? FTP is what you can maintain for 1 hour, efforts over that have to be a percentage lower than that.
Also racing crits I assume that the power levels fluctuate wildly. I am a triathlete so used to finding the steady output I can maintain for the distance and still run well after. Are you burning too many matches with power surges and that's impacting you later on in the race?
Certainly riding over 2 hours would work well to build a bigger base of aerobic fitness. 2 hours is a "short" long ride if you get what I mean. In triathlon the Brownlees regularly clock in 4 hour training rides when in their events the bike is done in under an hour.
Also racing crits I assume that the power levels fluctuate wildly. I am a triathlete so used to finding the steady output I can maintain for the distance and still run well after. Are you burning too many matches with power surges and that's impacting you later on in the race?
Certainly riding over 2 hours would work well to build a bigger base of aerobic fitness. 2 hours is a "short" long ride if you get what I mean. In triathlon the Brownlees regularly clock in 4 hour training rides when in their events the bike is done in under an hour.
Yeah, FTP is currently around 280. Peaked at 300 during the race season.
Looking back at the normalized figures they translated to 245w and 217w respectively. So i guess i was riding too hard for the first 2 hours. And i may have initially neglected the fact i rode nearly the same ride the day before, so fatigue was probably a factor.
From the comments, it sounds like it's a mixed view topic.
Looking back at the normalized figures they translated to 245w and 217w respectively. So i guess i was riding too hard for the first 2 hours. And i may have initially neglected the fact i rode nearly the same ride the day before, so fatigue was probably a factor.
From the comments, it sounds like it's a mixed view topic.
Remember that FTP really only describes what you can do under FTP test conditions. It's a handy guide but not an accurate prediction for efforts of different lengths.
The physiological changes that happen around 1.5-2 hours in are the most likely candidates here. Fuelling and hydration would be the first thing to check. Muscle glycogen stores will typically last us between 90-120 minutes, after which you're running a deficit that needs to be replaced. For longer rides a common mistake it to wait too long before eating. I'll start between 30-60 mins into a long ride. Same with hydration. If you're sweating heavily (and even if you're not, you're losing a surprising amount of moisture by breathing hard) you may get to the point where your blood thickens enough to make pushing it around that bit harder.
Next on my list would be pacing. If you're the type of rider who almost always rides short hard rides then you're likely to have a bias towards Type II muscle fibres, relative to an endurance rider. These are strong fibres that make a great sprinter and power rider but they're inefficient. Not a problem if you're only riding for 90 minutes, of course.
I agree with what Keith said about not needing to train at race distances. What I'd add is that you need to train at race pace. Specificity is really effective. By riding at race pace you target the physiological systems that are challenged at race pace and you make the relevant adaptations. If you're training for 5 hour efforts then banking regular 2-3 hour rides at 5-hour pace is going to be the ticket. That's not to say you should be ignoring intervals and intensity in other rides.
The physiological changes that happen around 1.5-2 hours in are the most likely candidates here. Fuelling and hydration would be the first thing to check. Muscle glycogen stores will typically last us between 90-120 minutes, after which you're running a deficit that needs to be replaced. For longer rides a common mistake it to wait too long before eating. I'll start between 30-60 mins into a long ride. Same with hydration. If you're sweating heavily (and even if you're not, you're losing a surprising amount of moisture by breathing hard) you may get to the point where your blood thickens enough to make pushing it around that bit harder.
Next on my list would be pacing. If you're the type of rider who almost always rides short hard rides then you're likely to have a bias towards Type II muscle fibres, relative to an endurance rider. These are strong fibres that make a great sprinter and power rider but they're inefficient. Not a problem if you're only riding for 90 minutes, of course.
I agree with what Keith said about not needing to train at race distances. What I'd add is that you need to train at race pace. Specificity is really effective. By riding at race pace you target the physiological systems that are challenged at race pace and you make the relevant adaptations. If you're training for 5 hour efforts then banking regular 2-3 hour rides at 5-hour pace is going to be the ticket. That's not to say you should be ignoring intervals and intensity in other rides.
Gruffy said:
Remember that FTP really only describes what you can do under FTP test conditions. It's a handy guide but not an accurate prediction for efforts of different lengths.
Jo Friel has stated exactly this point in his Training Bible book (first published decades ago). Basically once you know Critical Powers (CPs) for different durations e.g. 5s 1min 60 min 120min they can be plotted on a graph and compared against the Watts/kg tables in his book... That should give an idea on what weaknesses are depending on what you want to achieve. Thank you Gruffy. That is really interesting and useful for me.
I did my first 2019 sportive on Saturday. 73 miles in total and over 3600ft climbing. I started strong but lack of eating early on and hydrating took its toll and my calves started cramping before the half way pit stop.
I even bailed on the last hill of the event and had to get off and walk, something I've never done before, but I had no power in my legs and lots of cramp.
So I recognise a lot of what you wrote. Good learning for me, thanks!
I did my first 2019 sportive on Saturday. 73 miles in total and over 3600ft climbing. I started strong but lack of eating early on and hydrating took its toll and my calves started cramping before the half way pit stop.
I even bailed on the last hill of the event and had to get off and walk, something I've never done before, but I had no power in my legs and lots of cramp.
So I recognise a lot of what you wrote. Good learning for me, thanks!
Gruffy said:
Remember that FTP really only describes what you can do under FTP test conditions. It's a handy guide but not an accurate prediction for efforts of different lengths.
The physiological changes that happen around 1.5-2 hours in are the most likely candidates here. Fuelling and hydration would be the first thing to check. Muscle glycogen stores will typically last us between 90-120 minutes, after which you're running a deficit that needs to be replaced. For longer rides a common mistake it to wait too long before eating. I'll start between 30-60 mins into a long ride. Same with hydration. If you're sweating heavily (and even if you're not, you're losing a surprising amount of moisture by breathing hard) you may get to the point where your blood thickens enough to make pushing it around that bit harder.
Next on my list would be pacing. If you're the type of rider who almost always rides short hard rides then you're likely to have a bias towards Type II muscle fibres, relative to an endurance rider. These are strong fibres that make a great sprinter and power rider but they're inefficient. Not a problem if you're only riding for 90 minutes, of course.
I agree with what Keith said about not needing to train at race distances. What I'd add is that you need to train at race pace. Specificity is really effective. By riding at race pace you target the physiological systems that are challenged at race pace and you make the relevant adaptations. If you're training for 5 hour efforts then banking regular 2-3 hour rides at 5-hour pace is going to be the ticket. That's not to say you should be ignoring intervals and intensity in other rides.
Thanks Gruffy, a very useful post.The physiological changes that happen around 1.5-2 hours in are the most likely candidates here. Fuelling and hydration would be the first thing to check. Muscle glycogen stores will typically last us between 90-120 minutes, after which you're running a deficit that needs to be replaced. For longer rides a common mistake it to wait too long before eating. I'll start between 30-60 mins into a long ride. Same with hydration. If you're sweating heavily (and even if you're not, you're losing a surprising amount of moisture by breathing hard) you may get to the point where your blood thickens enough to make pushing it around that bit harder.
Next on my list would be pacing. If you're the type of rider who almost always rides short hard rides then you're likely to have a bias towards Type II muscle fibres, relative to an endurance rider. These are strong fibres that make a great sprinter and power rider but they're inefficient. Not a problem if you're only riding for 90 minutes, of course.
I agree with what Keith said about not needing to train at race distances. What I'd add is that you need to train at race pace. Specificity is really effective. By riding at race pace you target the physiological systems that are challenged at race pace and you make the relevant adaptations. If you're training for 5 hour efforts then banking regular 2-3 hour rides at 5-hour pace is going to be the ticket. That's not to say you should be ignoring intervals and intensity in other rides.
Fuelling - I actually think i already fit in with what you've said. If i know i'm riding over 2 hours at upper endurance/lower tempo zones i'll gel every 45mins to keep on top of it and usually carry a sandwich or have some cake/food stop in mind to give a break from gel. Hydration, for warmer days i'd expect to consume 2x 750ml bottles with tabs in. Slightly under that this weekend.
Pacing - I think i'd agree with your observation mostly. I'm not a sprinter, i'm far too small. But for climbing and break/attack efforts I'm usually feeling strong. Funnily enough, riding distances with friends isn't actually a problem. None of them race so they pace much lower. Yet to find a race team to join/train with.
Your last point is the most interesting. I almost never ride at an endurance pace. I get my enjoyment from going out for an hour or two full gas, attacking all the climbs and chasing anyone/anything up the road. Maybe this is my fundamental problem?
Perhaps you'll find this useful - https://www.velonews.com/2019/02/training/fast-tal...
citizenmtb said:
Your last point is the most interesting. I almost never ride at an endurance pace. I get my enjoyment from going out for an hour or two full gas, attacking all the climbs and chasing anyone/anything up the road. Maybe this is my fundamental problem?
This bit is quite important - are you familiar with the 'book of matches' concept?i.e you start your ride with a book of matches (everyone has a different number of matches an those matches differ in intensity and duration..)
A match is an 'effort'.
Very simply your capability might be to spend all day riding at 200W, but you have 5 600w matches available to you - that last 30 sec each.
Use all those matches smashing climbs / chasing down riders and you'll be left clinging on for dear life for the last hour.
If you want to ride 3hrs you can't expect to do it at a pace that will see you die at 2hrs.
To echo Gruffys comments on fuelling - you've got about 2k calories worth stored. That's enough to last a couple of hours at medium pace, but every time you put an effort in, you're taking a big gulp from those reserves. This needs planning for / replacing. I wrote in another thread recently - hungry / thirsty = too late.
These efforts are also putting fatigue and lactate into the legs. Spinning down will reduce it each time, but not back to zero, so every time you use an effort, you're starting from a slightly more damaged position to last time.
At my first 24hr, I put in some 4-600w moments - getting excited coming out of the pits, trying to wake myself up or whatever. That will definitely have had an effect towards the end of the race.
More difficult to manage if you're on a course that requires climbs of course, but the idea there is to ease off going up, and keep spinning when you go down, to keep the power more even (you'll also then be making up time you 'lost' on the climb)
nacnac said:
Perhaps you'll find this useful - https://www.velonews.com/2019/02/training/fast-tal...
That was a really interesting listen.Really hitting the nail on the head about how tedious and pointless long rides seem for me. I guess that's something i'm going to need to work on this season. Along with avoiding spikes just because i'm bored.
2 questions i'm left with though. If you use their suggested 3 day structure, how do you increase training load? and maintain the rest periods between HIIT and Threshold days?
Secondly, once the race season gets going. How do you maintain the structure and rest between the days? Can a race be considered a HIIT/Threshold session?
Cheers,
citizenmtb said:
If you use their suggested 3 day structure, how do you increase training load? and maintain the rest periods between HIIT and Threshold days?
First I should say I don't use their suggested 3 day structure but a friend of mine who I do sometimes advise I suggest something like:2 x quality sessions per week - HIIT / long sweetspot / some kind of structure etc
1 x longer ride - this could then tie in with their zone 1 sessions
If he then does any extra in between those interval sessions make sure it doesn't leave fatigue so he can still hit the right numbers.
citizenmtb said:
Secondly, once the race season gets going. How do you maintain the structure and rest between the days? Can a race be considered a HIIT/Threshold session?
You will sometimes have to choose between maintaining fitness and being fresh for races, hence why you may have to sometimes race sub par. And yes, a race would normally fall in place of a hard session.Do you track TSS? Can be useful for all of this kind of stuff.
citizenmtb said:
I do have all the stats, but TSS isn't one of the figures I keep tabs on, or understand much past being a relative training load score. In fact, probably not at all...
The 3 principles are broadly simple - TSS - training stress score (a score given to how hard a ride is based on normalised power) - TSB - training stress balance (how f
ked/fresh you are at that point 0 is neutral, -50 is dead + 50 is VERY fresh - somewhere in the middle is good pending length of event/training session) - CTL - critical training load (how many TSS you can absorb per day without being too fked and also how many TSS you need to do a day to maintain, or increase fitness - this is made up of the last 42 days of training's average TSS per day).Broadly speaking to get fitter, you rack up some TSS numbers to boost your CTL, this sends your TSB negative and into a hole of sorts. You rest to bring your TSB back up to a more neutral level and your CTL benefits from the overload and is now higher and you get fitter. Rinse and repeat. Think of it like 3 steps forward in the load phase, one step back in the rest phase. There is a net gain there, but you can't release it until you rest.
100 TSS is meant to be 1 hour at your threshold. Having a CTL of 100 means that over the last 42 days, you have, on average done 100TSS per day. It means that anything less than 100TSS in a day should be pretty easy to absorb and not feel much of the next day, obviously going out and doing 300TSS is going to hurt the next day, a lot. But it will hurt you less than someone with a CTL of 80, assuming you had the same FTP and weighed the same ish.
However, not all people are the same. My FTP is now probably 330-340W on a CTL of around 40. That is because I respond well to training, have some talent for it, and have done a lot of riding before I took a lay off. It might well take someone who responds worse to training, doesn't have much talent a CTL of 80 to get the same result. OR of course they may never get the same result, bad genes. I know people with similar CTL to pro tour riders but do not ride pro tour, talent factors here. That all said, most people can get to a decent level if they're willing to put in the effort.
The above kind of then tells you why long rides are hard, its impossible to get any kind of decent CTL really by not doing any long rides, as every ride would be as hard as you could, which quickly wouldn't end well. The annoying thing about the TSS method for me is that it implies that it doesn't matter what the composition of the training is, as long as you get the score and keep going up. This is not true, the scores need to come from a mixture of riding, some hard, some slow, some really hard etc. Your body will adapt if you keep it on its toes. Racing actually quite good for that sometimes as it forces you into quite varied riding.
Edited by okgo on Tuesday 5th March 10:30
Work on upping your FTP. Endurance riding is about keeping your efforts in your lower HR / Power zones, and keeping variance down. The higher your FTP, the higher your Zone 1 and 2 power will be. Endurance riding has a ‘trinity’ of issues you have to train for. Fuelling / nutrition, fatigue, and mental resilience. Fuelling is fairly straightforward, eat before you’re hungry, drink before you’re thirsty, keep an eye on your calorie burn rate. Fatigue is more difficult, keep your power variance down, and keep your power / HR in Z2 for as much of the ride as possible. Careful route planning counts for a lot here ( for example avoid as many big steep climbs as possible, if you have to include elevation, look to make the gradients as uniform as possible) Mental resilience is ( for me ) the thing that I find toughest. I have to make sure the route holds my interest, and goes somewhere worthwhile, or I get very bored / grumpy, very quickly. Head down, arse up, smashy smashy, smashing everything in Zone 5, and endurance riding are very different animals.
You’ve also got to bear in mind how you actually pedal, as this effects how your muscles fuel. High force High Cadence tends to push the fast twitch muscles into primarily fat fuelling, lower Cadence high force pedalling, tends to push the fast twitch muscles toward primarily Glycogen fuelling. So if you want to fuel efficiently, a few studies have concluded that high force relatively high Cadence pedalling will make the ride more Glycogen efficient. It does depend on being able to quantify ‘higher force / Power’ though, as there seems to be a requisite target power at each range of cadence to make this hold true.
You’ve also got to bear in mind how you actually pedal, as this effects how your muscles fuel. High force High Cadence tends to push the fast twitch muscles into primarily fat fuelling, lower Cadence high force pedalling, tends to push the fast twitch muscles toward primarily Glycogen fuelling. So if you want to fuel efficiently, a few studies have concluded that high force relatively high Cadence pedalling will make the ride more Glycogen efficient. It does depend on being able to quantify ‘higher force / Power’ though, as there seems to be a requisite target power at each range of cadence to make this hold true.
Edited by GOATever on Tuesday 5th March 20:03
Edited by GOATever on Tuesday 5th March 20:03
Thanks for the last few responses, for someone who has been road riding for a few years now with a PM they are very enlightening. I don't track my TSS specifically but will do so now. I am training for the Marmotte, FTP is just shy of 300w and ideally want to be in a place where I can do extended durations at 240w (I can do 2- 2.5 hrs on the watt bike at the moment easily for this sort of duration or 230w for 3 hrs).
I am conscious of trying to do more Z2 stuff. I may even get out on the real road this weekend!
I am conscious of trying to do more Z2 stuff. I may even get out on the real road this weekend!
Over the years I've done almost all of my triathlon training on my own but back in the day I was a member of a club for a while. The 2 really good cyclists there told me that the best cycle training you can do is to try to push up long, gradual slopes just that bit harder/faster than you feel you can and keep it going to the top. Not steep hills though because your motivation is just to plod to the top. You need to really bust a gut for 5 minutes or so. It'll toughen the legs and the lungs.
Gassing Station | Pedal Powered | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff