Leg size/power and recovery

[Kawasicki]

So my situation is as follows.

I’m in my mid 40’s. Stats are 175cm, 65kg, 260w ftp when on form, peak heart rate 200.

I’ve noticed that my performance degrades day by day when I push myself fairly hard. I rode in the alps with my club last year. On the first day I am one of the fastest, heart rate hovers around 180. On the second day I am much slower, on the third day I can barely get my heart rate above 160.

Could it be that my muscular strength(leg size) is my performance bottleneck?

I am blessed/cursed with the ability to pretty much ignore pain from sporting exertion. I often think that I rip my muscle fibers apart so much over long days that there is simply no time to recover. One of my club mates has gigantic legs and he is much slower than me normally, his limitation seems to come from oxygen, but he just gets faster and faster, day after day.

So I was thinking of starting leg muscle training, with the aim of simply having more muscle to better withstand long days of hard riding.

Thoughts please!

[anonymous-user]

A multi day club smash fest in The Alps isn't something you do all the time is it?

If you want to well on all 3 (or more) days, it needs preparing for properly imo, The best preparation would leave you having done close to similar efforts for a similar number of days in training as you expect to do on the trip.

Also, if the evenings / nights involve anything other than proper fuelling and resting, you will know about it. As you get older, the ability to recover isn't as good as it once was...

Specifically, I'd be surprised if it was strength that was the bottleneck

More likely, imo, endurance / recovery / being used to doing back to back hard days

Absent that, and others will disagree, but I am big believer that leg muscle training for cyclists (that do under 20 hours a week of cycling) is best done on the bike

Try incorporating something like TrainerRoad's Berryessa into your training (8 x 20 second sprints at 200% FTP at 100rpm+ with 5 mins recovery between each sprint).

You can nudge the 200% up as high as you like as long as you remain able to knock out 8 reps and you can reduce the recovery time and up the number of / duration of reps too. Not something to jump straight into doing every day, but it can certainly be repeated a couple / few times per week

[Kawasicki]

Thanks JP.

The thing is I already do a fairly substantial amount of sprint training, way more than is probably smart (maybe 15 sprints per week, way over double ftp). I also already do low cadence steep hill training. What is weird is that although I am substantially fitter and younger than some of my cycling buddies, most of them degrade at a slower rate as days go by. Maybe I am just expecting too much!

[Mr Ted]

First of all a disclaimer- I am not a health professional, but I have learn't a bit following my own cardiac event!

I think you are over-revving!!! My understand is that pushing your heart rate to 200 at your age is increasing the risk of developing atrial fibrillation, check it out with your GP. The fact that your max heart rate was significantly slower on the two following days indicates your heart muscle was exhausted and couldn't recover from day to day.

[Kawasicki]

Mr Ted said:

First of all a disclaimer- I am not a health professional, but I have learn't a bit following my own cardiac event!

I think you are over-revving!!! My understand is that pushing your heart rate to 200 at your age is increasing the risk of developing atrial fibrillation, check it out with your GP. The fact that your max heart rate was significantly slower on the two following days indicates your heart muscle was exhausted and couldn't recover from day to day.

Sincere thanks for the advice.

I don’t regularly hit 200! I only sustain very high (185+) HR in timed competition, which is maybe a total of 2 hours per year. I do hold 170-180 for a long time though, but that’s not that unusual, and compared to some I’m just a part timer. I’ve had full cardiac analysis twice in the past two years and I’ve been told I have no obvious issues.

You might be right with your theory, but it’s not just my heart not beating fast, I also don’t need to breathe as hard...so there is simply less demand for oxygen too. I feel like my legs simply can’t make the power, and it isn’t a lack of oxygen to the muscles.

Hope you are recovering well from your fright by the way, do you know what brought it on?

[Mr Ted]

Kawasicki said:

Sincere thanks for the advice.

I don’t regularly hit 200! I only sustain very high (185+) HR in timed competition, which is maybe a total of 2 hours per year. I do hold 170-180 for a long time though, but that’s not that unusual, and compared to some I’m just a part timer. I’ve had full cardiac analysis twice in the past two years and I’ve been told I have no obvious issues.

You might be right with your theory, but it’s not just my heart not beating fast, I also don’t need to breathe as hard...so there is simply less demand for oxygen too. I feel like my legs simply can’t make the power, and it isn’t a lack of oxygen to the muscles.

Hope you are recovering well from your fright by the way, do you know what brought it on?

Thanks for the kind wishes, my problem was faulty DNA, I had a heart attack at 56 years old, I have always been 55kg, non smoker, non drinker, regular exercise and ate well. I just found riding my MTB was getting harder and couldn't figure out why, no obvious cardiac symptoms, then zap!!! I am now powered by 3 stents and a double bypass!!! I made a short film about it!! https://youtu.be/Yqk1uwhbxx0

It sounds like you are doing all the right things regarding your health, and its good that you get checked!!! I was really lucky that the paramedics got to me very quickly and I was in the catheter lab within the time window for avoiding heart damage.

[Kawasicki]

Mr Ted said:

Kawasicki said:

Sincere thanks for the advice.

I don’t regularly hit 200! I only sustain very high (185+) HR in timed competition, which is maybe a total of 2 hours per year. I do hold 170-180 for a long time though, but that’s not that unusual, and compared to some I’m just a part timer. I’ve had full cardiac analysis twice in the past two years and I’ve been told I have no obvious issues.

You might be right with your theory, but it’s not just my heart not beating fast, I also don’t need to breathe as hard...so there is simply less demand for oxygen too. I feel like my legs simply can’t make the power, and it isn’t a lack of oxygen to the muscles.

Hope you are recovering well from your fright by the way, do you know what brought it on?

Thanks for the kind wishes, my problem was faulty DNA, I had a heart attack at 56 years old, I have always been 55kg, non smoker, non drinker, regular exercise and ate well. I just found riding my MTB was getting harder and couldn't figure out why, no obvious cardiac symptoms, then zap!!! I am now powered by 3 stents and a double bypass!!! I made a short film about it!! https://youtu.be/Yqk1uwhbxx0

It sounds like you are doing all the right things regarding your health, and its good that you get checked!!! I was really lucky that the paramedics got to me very quickly and I was in the catheter lab within the time window for avoiding heart damage.

That YouTube video is just class. I really enjoyed it. Thanks!

We probably have a fair bit in common...bikes, motorbikes, motorsport, being scrawny, extreme intelligence, huge sex appeal.

Hope I’m still pushing the pedals at your age! Cheers!

[murray]

I suffer from something very similar. One hard day got nothing next day. Next day legs feel fine until I get on the bike. None of my friends suffer from it. Can’t get heart rate to threshold as I can’t generate the sustained power. Legs fill with lactate under much less effort. I’ve tried everything I can think of, on one multi day event I was having three massages a day and resting and eating well off the bike. Made no difference at all. It’s not due to lack of endurance. I did 8,500 miles last year, Mallorca 312, etape du tour and many consecutive days of riding.

[Craivold]

What are you eating in the evenings after these big days? Sounds like you might not be replacing glycogen stores sufficiently and running on empty the following days. As others have said I doubt it's down to muscle mass/strength.

[murray]

In my case, tend to eat very well after them. Also, I’ve got quite bulky, muscular legs. Next day, on the bike, my legs feel as though i’ve done a heavy squat session day before.

[FukeLreeman]

Follow some pro's on Strava when they post Grand tour stats.

One thing you'll notice is the inability to get into the high HR zones.

It's fatigue.

[Kawasicki]

FukeLreeman said:

Follow some pro's on Strava when they post Grand tour stats.

One thing you'll notice is the inability to get into the high HR zones.

It's fatigue.

I know these may sound like stupid questions...but I’ll ask them anyway...

Why is my body more fatigued than my less fit mates? Is the simple answer because they are not as slow as I think they are...they are just better at pacing.

If I pick the weakest link in my system and make it stronger will that reduce my fatigue? Or will I just ride faster and be just as fatigued at the end of the first day?

Am I just not actually that fit...But I am just good at beating myself up? Sometimes I finish a race and I am on the point of passing out...I look around me and everyone else looks relatively normal.

[Kawasicki]

Craivold said:

What are you eating in the evenings after these big days? Sounds like you might not be replacing glycogen stores sufficiently and running on empty the following days. As others have said I doubt it's down to muscle mass/strength.

I’m eating like a king. Seriously. And sleeping like a baby. No alcohol either. I’ve tried the nutrition and sleep fixes and they don’t work for me.

[anonymous-user]

What’s your hydration like over those three mountain days?

[murray]

In my case I feel nice and fresh the next day. It’s just the legs, on the bike, feel really fatigued. If I do a club ride on a Sunday, and not too hard a one at that, it’s Wednesday before my legs are fully recovered. If I go out on the Tuesday evening they are still affected by the ride on Sunday. None of my friends suffer from this and they aren’t any fitter than me.

[Kawasicki]

I am well hydrated too. I also take electrolytes. The ambient temperature has no major bearing on the issue.


Maybe I am just pushing too hard. I was wondering was muscular overload my multi day performance bottleneck...so my logic was that bigger legs mean less muscular overload.

[deeen]

murray said:

In my case I feel nice and fresh the next day. It’s just the legs, on the bike, feel really fatigued. If I do a club ride on a Sunday, and not too hard a one at that, it’s Wednesday before my legs are fully recovered. If I go out on the Tuesday evening they are still affected by the ride on Sunday. None of my friends suffer from this and they aren’t any fitter than me.

Maybe you are using your legs too much, and your glutes not enough?

[murray]

I actually though it was big legs that caused the issue. Not so, from what you are saying.

[murray]

deeen said:

Maybe you are using your legs too much, and your glutes not enough?

Funny you should say that as someone else said that recently. How do you check? I’ve had full bike fits in the past but I e always had this issue.

[deeen]

murray said:

deeen said:

Maybe you are using your legs too much, and your glutes not enough?

Funny you should say that as someone else said that recently. How do you check? I’ve had full bike fits in the past but I e always had this issue.

First, I'm no expert, just a weekend cyclist! Filtering what I've read, heard and seen through my own limited knowledge and experience, it seems that your glutes evolved as the most powerful muscle, so it's more efficient to use them than the thighs. In reality, you will use both, but maybe you need to re-balance? If your legs are already over-developed, maybe your body is not engaging your glutes (learnt / imprinted behaviour)? There are videos online about engaging the glutes, both off the bike (to re-learn the behaviour) and on the bike. The easiest one to do deliberately is flex your ankles and drop your heels on the downstroke then push through the bottom of the stroke, you should feel you are using your calves, but actually should engage your glutes also. More difficult is to ride leaning a bit more forward than you are used to, arms bent, with a flat or even concave back. How do you know? No idea, unless you can isolate the different muscles on machines in the gym, and look at the difference from the average? On the bike, well muscles take time to learn new behaviour, and time to adapt (strengthen) to new demands, maybe give it 3 months of trying something different, see what happens?