Turbo training - pedalling through treacle?
Discussion
Presumably that's a magnetic trainer? IME they don't have a nice a "feel" as a fluid trainer. I use a Road machine with the pro flywheel and the back wheel will spinning for ages if you stop pedalling, they're really smooth.
If you google you can probably find a power/speed graph for your trainer.
FWIW my Kinetic road machine reads 15.1mph @ 150w using a speed sensor on the back wheel (programmed with diameter of tyre) and the virtual power feature of Trainerroad. But that can't really be compared as each trainer has a different power curve. Magnetic trainers seem to have a linear relationship between flywheel speed and power absorbed whereas fluid trainers give a steepening curve as power/speed increases, more like how aero drag increases in real life.
If you google you can probably find a power/speed graph for your trainer.
FWIW my Kinetic road machine reads 15.1mph @ 150w using a speed sensor on the back wheel (programmed with diameter of tyre) and the virtual power feature of Trainerroad. But that can't really be compared as each trainer has a different power curve. Magnetic trainers seem to have a linear relationship between flywheel speed and power absorbed whereas fluid trainers give a steepening curve as power/speed increases, more like how aero drag increases in real life.
Thanks for that; yes, it is a magnetic jobbie. This model has a clutch mech to make sure the roller is clamped to the bike wheel with the same force each time. There's a yellow clamp knob that gets wound up until the internal clutch slips, then you know the connection between bike and trainer is correct. If I stop pedalling, it runs down very quickly, there's a lot of resistance there.
I'm getting used to it, I still get surprised that if I don't concentrate on what I'm doing; it's easy to drop down a bit on the speed/power output like a headwind all the time!
I'm getting used to it, I still get surprised that if I don't concentrate on what I'm doing; it's easy to drop down a bit on the speed/power output like a headwind all the time!
Paul Drawmer said:
Thanks for that; yes, it is a magnetic jobbie. This model has a clutch mech to make sure the roller is clamped to the bike wheel with the same force each time. There's a yellow clamp knob that gets wound up until the internal clutch slips, then you know the connection between bike and trainer is correct. If I stop pedalling, it runs down very quickly, there's a lot of resistance there.
I'm getting used to it, I still get surprised that if I don't concentrate on what I'm doing; it's easy to drop down a bit on the speed/power output like a headwind all the time!
What's your cadence? If it drops due to tiredness the resistance will ramp up to keep the same power.I'm getting used to it, I still get surprised that if I don't concentrate on what I'm doing; it's easy to drop down a bit on the speed/power output like a headwind all the time!
WestyCarl said:
What's your cadence? If it drops due to tiredness the resistance will ramp up to keep the same power.
Mine doesn't do that. I'm using Wahoo Fitness, but not using the app to set any target. I have a schedule of times / power that I use, but the system doesn't know that.I've recently started using a tacx flux after only taking up road cycling in April
I've come to the conclusion that turbo training is purely to gain power. It doesn't feel like road cycling, i cant do the miles i can on the road - did 15 last week and Christ it was torture
Its fine though as my legs are getting bloody awesome now and I'll be way quicker on the road I suspect
I've come to the conclusion that turbo training is purely to gain power. It doesn't feel like road cycling, i cant do the miles i can on the road - did 15 last week and Christ it was torture
Its fine though as my legs are getting bloody awesome now and I'll be way quicker on the road I suspect
Yea it’s not the most pleasant experience, but with a full time job and 2 small kids it’s the only way I can train the week, especially in the winter as I absolutely hate riding in the dark. Stick a DVD on and crank the volume up and I find it a great way to unwind and get some me time.
Last summer I was struggling to do 50 mile rides, this summer I felt comfortable doing a century and have lost a stone in weight, and that’s mainly through doing a couple of 60-90 minute turbo sessions during the week.
Last summer I was struggling to do 50 mile rides, this summer I felt comfortable doing a century and have lost a stone in weight, and that’s mainly through doing a couple of 60-90 minute turbo sessions during the week.
Counting 'miles' (or for that matter 'road speed') on the turbo is utter nonsense.. it's just resistance.. depending on the turbo you could turn the resistance right down, spin along at stupidly high MPH/get lots of miles, and do stuff all training.. or vice versa.
In terms of pedalling through treacle. yep. pretty much. Unless you buy something very high end, it's rather like that. When you're riding for real you have many kg's flying along with a lot of momentum. Things don't slow down much in the softer spots in your pedal stroke. On a turbo the only thing moving is the (likely) small flywheel, and your rear wheel. There's little momentum and it does slow down plenty whenever you have a light spot.
Only thing you can do (if you have the facility) is to use the lightest resistance, and biggest gear you can for any given power - more wheel speed = more 'momentum'. I found that helped a lot on a cheap tacx ?sirius?. Of course you may not have that facility, or it may be quite hard.
IMHO, if you can get on a turbo and 'just ride'.. then there's something very special about your mental makeup(!). Always have a plan.. some kind of workout. Treat it as a training tool, do the workout, tick off the intervals and get off. If you want to get fitter/faster it works like nothing else.
In terms of pedalling through treacle. yep. pretty much. Unless you buy something very high end, it's rather like that. When you're riding for real you have many kg's flying along with a lot of momentum. Things don't slow down much in the softer spots in your pedal stroke. On a turbo the only thing moving is the (likely) small flywheel, and your rear wheel. There's little momentum and it does slow down plenty whenever you have a light spot.
Only thing you can do (if you have the facility) is to use the lightest resistance, and biggest gear you can for any given power - more wheel speed = more 'momentum'. I found that helped a lot on a cheap tacx ?sirius?. Of course you may not have that facility, or it may be quite hard.
IMHO, if you can get on a turbo and 'just ride'.. then there's something very special about your mental makeup(!). Always have a plan.. some kind of workout. Treat it as a training tool, do the workout, tick off the intervals and get off. If you want to get fitter/faster it works like nothing else.
upsidedownmark said:
...Always have a plan.. some kind of workout. Treat it as a training tool, do the workout, tick off the intervals and get off. If you want to get fitter/faster it works like nothing else.
This is what I do. I basically drive it to heart rate. I know what power I need to see on the display to get to the required heart rate, and have a plan that has a warm up segment, then effort, recover repeat etc.It's in the garage, the radio is on and at the moment I've got a 45min session that makes me very sweaty. I'm 71, and 120bpm for recovery and 150 for effort. I try not to exceed 165. Here's yesterday's rather lazy effort.
But it's like working into the wind all the time because of the lack of momentum.
Oh, and knocked up a display holder for the tablet which is clamped onto the bike work stand- now I can see the figures without my glasses.
https://youtu.be/MYlS2m9dBwA
In that case, I think it's a bit of a case of that's what it is. If it's got adjustable resistance set it to the easiest possible, and make up for it with wheel speed. It is also worth checking (in the case of resistance adjustable via cable) that the cable is also releasing properly, i.e. when you back the resistance off, the brake unit is actually moving to it's fully lowest resistance position.. but to a large extent, that's just how it is. Turbos generally feel like riding up a pretty decent hill no matter what.
In my humble opinion you've got it all backwards with the heart rate thing however. Obviously if you've received medical advice wrt the 165, then ignore me, but otherwise it seems like a rather arbitrary figure. In any case, HR is so very very dependent on a ton of other things its a fairly bad proxy for effort - better than nothing, but if you have power, better to use that.
In my humble opinion you've got it all backwards with the heart rate thing however. Obviously if you've received medical advice wrt the 165, then ignore me, but otherwise it seems like a rather arbitrary figure. In any case, HR is so very very dependent on a ton of other things its a fairly bad proxy for effort - better than nothing, but if you have power, better to use that.
Edited by upsidedownmark on Sunday 28th October 22:59
Paul Drawmer said:
upsidedownmark said:
...Always have a plan.. some kind of workout. Treat it as a training tool, do the workout, tick off the intervals and get off. If you want to get fitter/faster it works like nothing else.
This is what I do. I basically drive it to heart rate. I know what power I need to see on the display to get to the required heart rate, and have a plan that has a warm up segment, then effort, recover repeat etc.It's in the garage, the radio is on and at the moment I've got a 45min session that makes me very sweaty. I'm 71, and 120bpm for recovery and 150 for effort. I try not to exceed 165. Here's yesterday's rather lazy effort.
But it's like working into the wind all the time because of the lack of momentum.
Oh, and knocked up a display holder for the tablet which is clamped onto the bike work stand- now I can see the figures without my glasses.
https://youtu.be/MYlS2m9dBwA
rastapasta said:
Turbo trainers are in reality just a means of maintaining the mileage over winter while watching something on Netflix or Champions League. if you want to race people on Zwift well so be it, but wattage etc, dont worry about this. You'll gain everything out in the real world in sping 2019. I can assure you of this.
Sorry, I know everyone's entitled to their opinion, but that's such utter tosh I actually wonder if you're trolling!Nope, you don't have to take it seriously or train specifically if you don't want to (but if you don't, I strongly suggest throwing the evil device off the nearest cliff...)
IF you're chasing fitness, there is no more effective way of doing it than a turbo trainer. Outside is more fun, but just riding around does not make you strong. Planned and controlled efforts do. Most folks who race will be using trainers all year round - again, not to say you should/do race, but go figure..
Watching your wattage etc., is of course totally worthless, no sense in structuring training
rastapasta said:
Maybe dont take it too seriously Paul, You'll get your fitness when you go out in the spring. Turbo trainers are in reality just a means of maintaining the mileage over winter while watching something on Netflix or Champions League. if you want to race people on Zwift well so be it, but wattage etc, dont worry about this. You'll gain everything out in the real world in sping 2019. I can assure you of this.
I disagree.The use of the turbo in the run up to the spring can, if done correctly, mean that you can hit your first ride in March at pretty much any fitness you want.
Jonathan Vaughters agrees ( https://www.efprocycling.com/coachs-corner-2/ )
"That wild racing you see early in the year is a product of this dynamic. Everyone comes into the season in very good shape these days. No more bellies and slow speeds. We see higher power values and higher tension in March than we do for the entire season. Forget about your preconceptions of a rider easing his way into the year, that s
t doesn’t happen anymore. If you don’t come in fit and ready, the races are so fast and hard, they kill you rather than train you."( https://www.efprocycling.com/coachs-corner-1/ )
"Firstly, the training a rider does to truly achieve fitness win races is done at home, on their own, or in small and invisible camps with a few teammates. Not at the big “all team gaggle” each team has mid-winter. If you show up to the team camp in January short on fitness and long on belly, you won’t make up for much of it at camp"
Turbo trainers can be used merely to maintain time on the bike whilst watching netflix of course. But they can also be used to deliver structured, controlled and measurable training in a way that riding on the road simply can't match. Sure, riding about in beautiful countryside on a warm sunny day can't be beaten generally, but for delivering training that makes cyclists be able to put out more power for longer periods of time, proper use of a turbo trainer wins hands down.
Whether the sessions OP is doing are the optimum for him and his aims isn't for me to advise of course, but I think a plan that progresses by increasing sweet spot interval lengths with a touch of VO2 work in there is likely to be good enough for people who use a bike to get / stay fit and active (as opposed to racing)
+1
Non-scientific study.. went to a local MTB trail centre with two mates last week. Two of us do a couple of turbo sessions during the week (Zwift and Trainerroad), the other guy rides round his local woods a couple of times in the week. He was the slowest... (even with me on a 26er!)
Non-scientific study.. went to a local MTB trail centre with two mates last week. Two of us do a couple of turbo sessions during the week (Zwift and Trainerroad), the other guy rides round his local woods a couple of times in the week. He was the slowest... (even with me on a 26er!)
upsidedownmark said:
Sorry, I know everyone's entitled to their opinion, but that's such utter tosh I actually wonder if you're trolling!
Nope, you don't have to take it seriously or train specifically if you don't want to (but if you don't, I strongly suggest throwing the evil device off the nearest cliff...)
IF you're chasing fitness, there is no more effective way of doing it than a turbo trainer. Outside is more fun, but just riding around does not make you strong. Planned and controlled efforts do. Most folks who race will be using trainers all year round - again, not to say you should/do race, but go figure..
Watching your wattage etc., is of course totally worthless, no sense in structuring training
Sufferfest call it LSD or Long Steady Distance. I prefer Long Slow Death. Who wants to spend hours and hours spinning away on a TT just for "base" fitness?Nope, you don't have to take it seriously or train specifically if you don't want to (but if you don't, I strongly suggest throwing the evil device off the nearest cliff...)
IF you're chasing fitness, there is no more effective way of doing it than a turbo trainer. Outside is more fun, but just riding around does not make you strong. Planned and controlled efforts do. Most folks who race will be using trainers all year round - again, not to say you should/do race, but go figure..
Watching your wattage etc., is of course totally worthless, no sense in structuring training
https://thesufferfest.com/blogs/training-resources...
Sufferfest said:
Numerous studies have shown (see reference at the end of the article) that when athletes with a fixed amount of training time switch from training that includes high intensity efforts to only low intensity training, they actually see a decrease in critical metrics like VO2 max (your body's maximum ability to utilise oxygen). Training only works when your body is subjected to a new stress that it hasn’t encountered before. Training stress triggers adaptation and improvements in fitness. Only when you present your body with a different challenge will it make changes to become stronger and more efficient
Yes, they are selling their training platform but they do have some lower intensity recovery or sub-threshold sessions like Base 15/30/60 or three videos using (the beautiful as ever) Col Collective footage - "The Way Out", "Get to the Other Side" and "Getting Away With It". Fire up the "The Shovel" though and you'll be swearing like a trooper when you're not blowing out of your arse on the intervals.If I'm going to drag my ass out to the garage in sub-zero temp's, makes sense to make it as effective as possible.
upsidedownmark said:
rastapasta said:
Turbo trainers are in reality just a means of maintaining the mileage over winter while watching something on Netflix or Champions League. if you want to race people on Zwift well so be it, but wattage etc, dont worry about this. You'll gain everything out in the real world in sping 2019. I can assure you of this.
Sorry, I know everyone's entitled to their opinion, but that's such utter tosh I actually wonder if you're trolling!Nope, you don't have to take it seriously or train specifically if you don't want to (but if you don't, I strongly suggest throwing the evil device off the nearest cliff...)
IF you're chasing fitness, there is no more effective way of doing it than a turbo trainer. Outside is more fun, but just riding around does not make you strong. Planned and controlled efforts do. Most folks who race will be using trainers all year round - again, not to say you should/do race, but go figure..
Watching your wattage etc., is of course totally worthless, no sense in structuring training
Ive done enough km on them to know what their value is. You are right that outside wont necessarily make you strong if you are just pootling around, but if there is a pointed effort to your riding outside then the natural elements, wind hills etc etc then this will make you a much better rider in my opinion. But this is all weather dependent. In my opinion too many people place too much importance on wattage etc etc while spinning in their garage - I was one of these people. It can be mind numbing and I guess that is where things such as Zwift have a benefit.
I adopted a different winter regime in recent years with more of an emphasis on weight training and running can be of more benefit long term to bike fitness. This is what has worked for me. I will still set up the tacx machine for sure but at this stage I dont even bother measuring anything such as wattages etc (as you roll your eyes...). The fastest people in the club I ride in are the ones who mothball the bikes over winter and who just run and ski tour or Cross country ski. I get that you cannot do this necessarily in the UK but the point is that there are always other ways to reach your fitness goals in addition to or perhaps excluding indoor training. Probably the biggest key to fitness over winter is weight management. But I have always found the best solution is the early outdoor km's. Thats why I bought a CX bike. But each to their own.
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