What's the difference between a fast & slow bike
Discussion
Hey folks.
Cycling newb here. Been looking at reviews for picking up what will be the first bike I've owned since I was 18. My eye keeps getting drawn to mountain bikes and rugged styled hybrids (Specialized Crosstrail & Giant Roam). However a lot of reviews and cycling forum posts I read keeping saying that these are 'slow' bikes and that more road specialised bikes are 'faster'.
Now my conception has always been that, excluding BMW style fun bikes and single gear racing bikes with no brakes type stuff that a bikes speed is dictated by the bulging leg veins of its rider.
For a newbie what is the real world difference between a 'fast' bike and a 'slow' bike. And does this difference get bigger for more experienced riders, or smaller?
Cycling newb here. Been looking at reviews for picking up what will be the first bike I've owned since I was 18. My eye keeps getting drawn to mountain bikes and rugged styled hybrids (Specialized Crosstrail & Giant Roam). However a lot of reviews and cycling forum posts I read keeping saying that these are 'slow' bikes and that more road specialised bikes are 'faster'.
Now my conception has always been that, excluding BMW style fun bikes and single gear racing bikes with no brakes type stuff that a bikes speed is dictated by the bulging leg veins of its rider.
For a newbie what is the real world difference between a 'fast' bike and a 'slow' bike. And does this difference get bigger for more experienced riders, or smaller?
caelite said:
Hey folks.
Cycling newb here. Been looking at reviews for picking up what will be the first bike I've owned since I was 18. My eye keeps getting drawn to mountain bikes and rugged styled hybrids (Specialized Crosstrail & Giant Roam). However a lot of reviews and cycling forum posts I read keeping saying that these are 'slow' bikes and that more road specialised bikes are 'faster'.
Now my conception has always been that, excluding BMW style fun bikes and single gear racing bikes with no brakes type stuff that a bikes speed is dictated by the bulging leg veins of its rider.
For a newbie what is the real world difference between a 'fast' bike and a 'slow' bike. And does this difference get bigger for more experienced riders, or smaller?
For the vast majority, available funds.Cycling newb here. Been looking at reviews for picking up what will be the first bike I've owned since I was 18. My eye keeps getting drawn to mountain bikes and rugged styled hybrids (Specialized Crosstrail & Giant Roam). However a lot of reviews and cycling forum posts I read keeping saying that these are 'slow' bikes and that more road specialised bikes are 'faster'.
Now my conception has always been that, excluding BMW style fun bikes and single gear racing bikes with no brakes type stuff that a bikes speed is dictated by the bulging leg veins of its rider.
For a newbie what is the real world difference between a 'fast' bike and a 'slow' bike. And does this difference get bigger for more experienced riders, or smaller?
Like most things in life, the last few increments are nice, but they cost, usually lots.
A better quality bike will almost always be better than a POS for the same rider, however, no bike, no matter how much, is going to turn someone into a superstar. Equally, the more you put the time & effort in, the more you benefit and can achieve decent things with trash, so yes, you're right, someone in good condition on a POS is almost always going to cane a well meaning MAMIL with cash to burn, but little idea, or even an understanding.
Then there's the circumstances, which are a whole other world.
Leaving out the rider, the wheels, the various bearings and, well, everything except the frame: stiffness, weight and and aerodynamics. If you have a flexy frame then some of your energy is being wasted flexing the frame rather than propelling your forwards. Propelling a light frame requires less energy than propelling a heavy one. And if your frame is more aerodynamic than the next frame, it will go faster for a given effort.
Whether these differences are sufficiently material given the rest of the components, the weight of the rider, the rider’s position, etc, is all up for debate.
Whether these differences are sufficiently material given the rest of the components, the weight of the rider, the rider’s position, etc, is all up for debate.
Horses for courses, depends where you want to ride, no point dragging a heavy mountain bike with fat knobbly tyres around a long road ride. Conversely someone new to cycling will struggle to get comfortable on a low, aggressive race bike so may be slower overall than on something with a higher front end.
Rolling resistance from tyres, aero drag and weight all do make a real difference to how fast you go for a given effort- a "fast" road bike is really just another way of saying it's more efficient.
Comparing a cheap or mid price road bike to a super bike is going to make a difference but not as much as the marketeers would want you to think- GCN did some good videos about this.
A typical road ride for me will average 18-19mph over a rolling route, when I go out on my mountain bike (27lb full suspension) it's more like 12-14mph but that's finding as many off road trails as I can which make it slower for the same effort so it's hard to compare directly, as the road bike wouldn't even make it round the same route.
Rolling resistance from tyres, aero drag and weight all do make a real difference to how fast you go for a given effort- a "fast" road bike is really just another way of saying it's more efficient.
Comparing a cheap or mid price road bike to a super bike is going to make a difference but not as much as the marketeers would want you to think- GCN did some good videos about this.
A typical road ride for me will average 18-19mph over a rolling route, when I go out on my mountain bike (27lb full suspension) it's more like 12-14mph but that's finding as many off road trails as I can which make it slower for the same effort so it's hard to compare directly, as the road bike wouldn't even make it round the same route.
Edited by lufbramatt on Saturday 25th August 06:44
My cyclocross bike is “faster” than my road bike, but only because the gearing suits me better (very close ratios). The road bike is arguably “faster” as it weighs a lot less and my position on it is more aero. My TT bike is probably my slowest as I just can’t get comfy on it for more than 15 mins at a time and I’m nervous of going all out when I can’t reach the brakes.
Most of the people here talking about bike being ''faster'' mean that they are faster by maybe 3-4%!
It's all very marginal
Under 15km/h it's all about the Bicycle TYRE ROLLING RESISTANCE!
Get nice tyres and you can make ANY BIKE fast!
Over that speed it's all about Aero , -the Aero of the Fat blob sitting on it NOT THE BIKE! ( well the bike of course as well but the rider amounts for like 70-80% of the drag- so fix that first!
So... It doesn't really matters what bike you got,If you want to go fast - Get in good position , in good fitting clothes and get good tyres - The bicycle (frame/gears etc) Doesn't even really matters...
It's all very marginal
Under 15km/h it's all about the Bicycle TYRE ROLLING RESISTANCE!
Get nice tyres and you can make ANY BIKE fast!
Over that speed it's all about Aero , -the Aero of the Fat blob sitting on it NOT THE BIKE! ( well the bike of course as well but the rider amounts for like 70-80% of the drag- so fix that first!
So... It doesn't really matters what bike you got,If you want to go fast - Get in good position , in good fitting clothes and get good tyres - The bicycle (frame/gears etc) Doesn't even really matters...
bagusbagus said:
Most of the people here talking about bike being ''faster'' mean that they are faster by maybe 3-4%!
It's all very marginal
Under 15km/h it's all about the Bicycle TYRE ROLLING RESISTANCE!
Get nice tyres and you can make ANY BIKE fast!
Over that speed it's all about Aero , -the Aero of the Fat blob sitting on it NOT THE BIKE! ( well the bike of course as well but the rider amounts for like 70-80% of the drag- so fix that first!
So... It doesn't really matters what bike you got,If you want to go fast - Get in good position , in good fitting clothes and get good tyres - The bicycle (frame/gears etc) Doesn't even really matters...
I agree with most of this. I rode my first 40km timetrial at the weekend. I have a normal aluminium road bike, nothing fancy...except I pay a lot of attention to my tyre rolling resistance, and the aero drag of my clothes/helmet/skin/body position(helped by a pair of borrowed handlebar extensions). I used 2 gears for the whole course. I trained hard for the event. Results showed that my bike wasn't a major disadvantage. A few people with flapping jerseys were surprised when I rode past.It's all very marginal
Under 15km/h it's all about the Bicycle TYRE ROLLING RESISTANCE!
Get nice tyres and you can make ANY BIKE fast!
Over that speed it's all about Aero , -the Aero of the Fat blob sitting on it NOT THE BIKE! ( well the bike of course as well but the rider amounts for like 70-80% of the drag- so fix that first!
So... It doesn't really matters what bike you got,If you want to go fast - Get in good position , in good fitting clothes and get good tyres - The bicycle (frame/gears etc) Doesn't even really matters...
t. Which works to a degree on most people.My older brother is mad for his road bikes having given up the booze about 8 years ago. Necessarily so!!
He has 5 or six road bikes ranging from a £5k full carbon Dolan through to a Dawes Milk Race which I bought for him for his 50th as it was his dream bike when we were kids. It cost me £100 and when I picked it up the guy had just taken it from his loft still with the plastic over the seats and handlebars. This is his go to bike for a good 20 mile session. Although his 60's Walvale (built in Walton Vale in association with Harry Quinn) runs it a close second. The Campagnola gear from the 60's/70's was beautifully engineered clobber. Not a bit of plastic to be seen.
He has 5 or six road bikes ranging from a £5k full carbon Dolan through to a Dawes Milk Race which I bought for him for his 50th as it was his dream bike when we were kids. It cost me £100 and when I picked it up the guy had just taken it from his loft still with the plastic over the seats and handlebars. This is his go to bike for a good 20 mile session. Although his 60's Walvale (built in Walton Vale in association with Harry Quinn) runs it a close second. The Campagnola gear from the 60's/70's was beautifully engineered clobber. Not a bit of plastic to be seen.
There are 4 things that make you stop and one thing that makes you go (assuming a flat road)...
Speed up:
How hard does the rider push the pedals
Slow Down
Air resistance relating to the rider's body <-- This one is the big one
Air resistance relating to the bike and its components, wheels etc
Rolling resistance of the tyres
Mechanical resistance of the drivetrain.
For the speeding up part, the bike makes little difference.
For the slowing down part, it's more complicated:
Thin slick tyres have less resistance than fat nobbly tyres
Cheap crap drivetrains have more drag than expensive smooth ones.
Big fat frames have more resistance than thin aero ones.
The big fat blob on the top makes the most difference of all.
If you put thin slick tyres, aero wheels and a nice expensive dura ace groupset on a mountain bike, it will still have more "slow you down" factor than a road bike due to the non aero position it puts the big fat blob on top in, and that's the bit that makes up 80% of the slowing down.
You can also buy "endurance road bikes" which put the rider in a similarly awful (comfortable) position, and they would perform in much the same way.
If the big fat blob is taken care of and is in the most aero position possible, then the other things become a factor, but it it isn't, you're wasting your time.
Speed up:
How hard does the rider push the pedals
Slow Down
Air resistance relating to the rider's body <-- This one is the big one
Air resistance relating to the bike and its components, wheels etc
Rolling resistance of the tyres
Mechanical resistance of the drivetrain.
For the speeding up part, the bike makes little difference.
For the slowing down part, it's more complicated:
Thin slick tyres have less resistance than fat nobbly tyres
Cheap crap drivetrains have more drag than expensive smooth ones.
Big fat frames have more resistance than thin aero ones.
The big fat blob on the top makes the most difference of all.
If you put thin slick tyres, aero wheels and a nice expensive dura ace groupset on a mountain bike, it will still have more "slow you down" factor than a road bike due to the non aero position it puts the big fat blob on top in, and that's the bit that makes up 80% of the slowing down.
You can also buy "endurance road bikes" which put the rider in a similarly awful (comfortable) position, and they would perform in much the same way.
If the big fat blob is taken care of and is in the most aero position possible, then the other things become a factor, but it it isn't, you're wasting your time.
Edited by BMWBen on Wednesday 29th August 14:45
“Cheap crap drivetrains have more drag than expensive smooth ones.”
This is incorrect.
A nicely-dialed in Tourney drivetrain will have no more friction loss than a Dura-Ace drivetrain.
Indeed, even cheap square taper bottom brackets often spin easier than expensive external BBs. Strange but true.
The state of the chain is the major determining factor in drivetrain efficiency.
The bad reputation of cheap groupsets is more a result of inept assembly, cables stretching over time and derailleur claws being out of alignment, rather than any inherent weakness in the componentry.
As I have said before, stick posh cables/housing (Jagwire RoadPro) on cheap groupsets, set them up properly, and they will work as well as their expensive rivals.
This is incorrect.
A nicely-dialed in Tourney drivetrain will have no more friction loss than a Dura-Ace drivetrain.
Indeed, even cheap square taper bottom brackets often spin easier than expensive external BBs. Strange but true.
The state of the chain is the major determining factor in drivetrain efficiency.
The bad reputation of cheap groupsets is more a result of inept assembly, cables stretching over time and derailleur claws being out of alignment, rather than any inherent weakness in the componentry.
As I have said before, stick posh cables/housing (Jagwire RoadPro) on cheap groupsets, set them up properly, and they will work as well as their expensive rivals.
You may have a point about the state of maintenance being more important than the drivetrain itself, but my point that cheap *crap* drivetrains are not as efficient as more expensive good ones is definitely true.
Look at the difference between a jockey wheel on 105 vs dura-ace. One of them doesn't even have a bearing of any kind...
It's going to make a very marginal difference, for sure, but the point is true.
Look at the difference between a jockey wheel on 105 vs dura-ace. One of them doesn't even have a bearing of any kind...
It's going to make a very marginal difference, for sure, but the point is true.
Cheers for the advice folks.
Kind of settled on what I want now, looking for a drop bar 'gravel/adventure' bike with some dual sport tyres (smooth in the middle, knobbly on the edges). Based on what I've read it seems like it'd be most suitable. Naturally the two that have caught my eye are way out of my budget (Budget of a about £400, Specialized Diverge & Pinnacle Arkose, both start at about £800). Gonna keep my eye open for a used one.
Had a shot of my friends Giant road bike and really liked the drop bars, even though his frame was really too large for me (I'm 5'9, he's 6'1ish). But the drop bar'd ones seem to be priced considerably higher than the flat bar range.
Kind of settled on what I want now, looking for a drop bar 'gravel/adventure' bike with some dual sport tyres (smooth in the middle, knobbly on the edges). Based on what I've read it seems like it'd be most suitable. Naturally the two that have caught my eye are way out of my budget (Budget of a about £400, Specialized Diverge & Pinnacle Arkose, both start at about £800). Gonna keep my eye open for a used one.
Had a shot of my friends Giant road bike and really liked the drop bars, even though his frame was really too large for me (I'm 5'9, he's 6'1ish). But the drop bar'd ones seem to be priced considerably higher than the flat bar range.
Edited by caelite on Wednesday 29th August 16:28
BMWBen said:
Look at the difference between a jockey wheel on 105 vs dura-ace. One of them doesn't even have a bearing of any kind...
It's going to make a very marginal difference, for sure, but the point is true.
I'm going to pull out my pedantry stick here sorry. The "lower end" jockey wheels do have bearings, just not ball bearings. A simple shaft running in a hole is known as a "plain bearing". It's going to make a very marginal difference, for sure, but the point is true.
BMWBen said:
You may have a point about the state of maintenance being more important than the drivetrain itself, but my point that cheap *crap* drivetrains are not as efficient as more expensive good ones is definitely true.
Look at the difference between a jockey wheel on 105 vs dura-ace. One of them doesn't even have a bearing of any kind...
It's going to make a very marginal difference, for sure, but the point is true.
One watt, apparently.Look at the difference between a jockey wheel on 105 vs dura-ace. One of them doesn't even have a bearing of any kind...
It's going to make a very marginal difference, for sure, but the point is true.
Barchettaman said:
BMWBen said:
You may have a point about the state of maintenance being more important than the drivetrain itself, but my point that cheap *crap* drivetrains are not as efficient as more expensive good ones is definitely true.
Look at the difference between a jockey wheel on 105 vs dura-ace. One of them doesn't even have a bearing of any kind...
It's going to make a very marginal difference, for sure, but the point is true.
One watt, apparently.Look at the difference between a jockey wheel on 105 vs dura-ace. One of them doesn't even have a bearing of any kind...
It's going to make a very marginal difference, for sure, but the point is true.
There will be a fair difference in average speed between the different types of bike. Using roughly the same energy on a flat road I achieve:
Drop bar road bike - 19-20mph
Hardtail with slicks - 17-18mph
Full sus MTB with knobblies - 15-16mph
Downhill MTB with knobblies - 12-13mph
It really depends on what you want to ride and how comfortable you feel on the bike. If it's all going to be on the road you will want something faster.
Drop bar roadie is perfect for longer rides but it's much easier to ride the MTB in busy towns.
If you want to hit some trails you could always buy a MTB and have a spare set of wheels with slicks on for the road.
Drop bar road bike - 19-20mph
Hardtail with slicks - 17-18mph
Full sus MTB with knobblies - 15-16mph
Downhill MTB with knobblies - 12-13mph
It really depends on what you want to ride and how comfortable you feel on the bike. If it's all going to be on the road you will want something faster.
Drop bar roadie is perfect for longer rides but it's much easier to ride the MTB in busy towns.
If you want to hit some trails you could always buy a MTB and have a spare set of wheels with slicks on for the road.
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