Racey 29er MTBs advice + do you ride Swinley on one?
Discussion
Guys,
I have a 650B Full Sus bike for fun rides, but also a 650B carbon hardtail that I use for fast rides and occasional amateur XC racing. It leaves me feeling beaten up, but does generally give me my best times around Swinley (my local trails). It’s a Boardman ProCarbon in medium, and im 5’10/5’11, and ive always thought it might be a touch small. Ive upgraded it to 1x10, and fitted lots of nice carbon parts, and it weighs about 10kg now.
When racing – and occasionally around the forest – im overtaken by dudes on 29ers at speeds that make it look im stationary… I want a piece of that action.
However, for the kind of spec I’d want (Scott Scale 910 / Trek Procaliber 9.8) im looking at ~£3500 new which is a bit rich for my tastes.
This badboy is local to me, and seems a decent spec, though a bit of research suggests it’s a ~2012 bike/fork, though likely the rest of the components have been replaced since. Think its reasonable value at a grand, or would you be aiming to knock him down a touch?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Niner-Air-9-Carbon-Moun...
Other questions:
- All things being equal (same rider/fitness/effort) should I expect a 29er to give me a speed boost over my current 27.5?
- Anyone regularly ride Swinners on a racey 29er of this kind of spec? Assuming you use SPDs, would you be prepared to swap bikes with me for a couple of sections so I can gauge if a 29er would make me quicker, or whether (as my missus says after every race) I just need to “pedal faster” on my current 650B?
I have a 650B Full Sus bike for fun rides, but also a 650B carbon hardtail that I use for fast rides and occasional amateur XC racing. It leaves me feeling beaten up, but does generally give me my best times around Swinley (my local trails). It’s a Boardman ProCarbon in medium, and im 5’10/5’11, and ive always thought it might be a touch small. Ive upgraded it to 1x10, and fitted lots of nice carbon parts, and it weighs about 10kg now.
When racing – and occasionally around the forest – im overtaken by dudes on 29ers at speeds that make it look im stationary… I want a piece of that action.
However, for the kind of spec I’d want (Scott Scale 910 / Trek Procaliber 9.8) im looking at ~£3500 new which is a bit rich for my tastes.
This badboy is local to me, and seems a decent spec, though a bit of research suggests it’s a ~2012 bike/fork, though likely the rest of the components have been replaced since. Think its reasonable value at a grand, or would you be aiming to knock him down a touch?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Niner-Air-9-Carbon-Moun...
Other questions:
- All things being equal (same rider/fitness/effort) should I expect a 29er to give me a speed boost over my current 27.5?
- Anyone regularly ride Swinners on a racey 29er of this kind of spec? Assuming you use SPDs, would you be prepared to swap bikes with me for a couple of sections so I can gauge if a 29er would make me quicker, or whether (as my missus says after every race) I just need to “pedal faster” on my current 650B?
29s won't provide a massive change in speed, maybe only just noticeable.
For Swinley I'd be concerned about 29s compromised agility in the tighter sections such as Red 1 (threading between the trees) and much of the off piste stuff.
I'm in a similar quandary (still on 26!) so I've decided 27.5 Plus is my next port of call. I'm tempted to rent one from the bike hub (Marin frames I think). Try that first, perhaps?
Red 1? Theres only 1 week of the year that its not under 3ft of water & mud! 
Cant remember the last time I did that section...
I know 29ers are believed to be unwieldy, but from the Gorrick/Brass Monkey races the fast guys don't seem to have any problems overtaking me on the tight singletrack (I do, also, realise that they are just better than me, too)
I don't think the BikeHub rents out 29ers... Mountain Trax up the road have a Santa Cruz Highball 29er to demo, but its £60 for the privilege...
Cant remember the last time I did that section...I know 29ers are believed to be unwieldy, but from the Gorrick/Brass Monkey races the fast guys don't seem to have any problems overtaking me on the tight singletrack (I do, also, realise that they are just better than me, too)
I don't think the BikeHub rents out 29ers... Mountain Trax up the road have a Santa Cruz Highball 29er to demo, but its £60 for the privilege...
I've done quite a few laps of Swinley on a 29er. It's a 2015 Superfly 8 so alloy and not the same spec league as that Niner. Everything is fine on a 29er, I can't recall it ever feeling unwieldy, clear most of the table tops on it and usually do a couple of loops of the trails up at dearstalker etc
Here's a somewhat dull video of me riding it round the fun bits at Swinley https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Joi9o74gPqA
Whether it will make you faster.. I suspect that will be more down to fitness
I've just bought a 27+ full suss bike so will be interesting to see what I think of that round there next time I go
Here's a somewhat dull video of me riding it round the fun bits at Swinley https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Joi9o74gPqA
Whether it will make you faster.. I suspect that will be more down to fitness
I've just bought a 27+ full suss bike so will be interesting to see what I think of that round there next time I go
Sk00p said:
I've just bought a 27+ full suss bike so will be interesting to see what I think of that round there next time I go
I bet you will think "this feels slower... but bugger me, its more comfortable!"That's what its like for me, as I tend to do a few weeks on each bike, as I hate them both being dirty at the same time.
daddy cool said:
- All things being equal (same rider/fitness/effort) should I expect a 29er to give me a speed boost over my current 27.5?
When they took Ten Swiss National Team athletes and compared their times on 26" vs 29" for the same power output/heart rate and averaged the lot....the 29 was faster by 7 seconds over a 5:11 course....thats just 2.2% faster 26 vs 29. The difference between 27.5 and 29 is even less. That's hardly the reason for "blasting" past anyone...7 seconds over a 311 second section.
daddy cool said:
the fast guys on 29ers don't seem to have any problems overtaking me on the tight singletrack (I do, also, realise that they are just better than me, too)
Hit the nail on the head there^^^ - dont blame the bike.Ive got 4 scott scale's that includes 26er, 27.5er and a 29er (all in medium and im 5ft 10) and i find my physical performance is by far the biggest factor on any of them. Id look at tyres, seating position, suspension setup, lightweight parts, smaller bars, even clothing can make a larger difference then that change in wheelsize will. I reckon degreasing and cleaning my chain could give me 1%!
Wheel size benefits depends on the trail, tyres and the individual bike....more to a bike then just its wheel size....v tight and twisty/technical? NO...you will be slower on a 29er. Lots of stop starts?...no you will be slower. Heavier bike?....you will be slower
Best thing to do is try a demo and see for yourself. You might just find a bike that is more confidence inspiring or that feels easier on you.
Edited by BenGismo on Thursday 31st May 12:31
Edited by BenGismo on Thursday 31st May 12:32
daddy cool said:
Red 1? Theres only 1 week of the year that its not under 3ft of water & mud! Cant remember the last time I did that section...
Indeed, come to think of it, me neither Cant remember the last time I did that section.... Aside: I haven't been for a few weeks; are the deer/baby downhills still closed for tree surgery?
I know going faster is primarily about the engine, but feeling faster is also important. A couple of my group have 29ers, I'll PM you when we're next there, possibly one evening next week.
Jacobyte said:
Indeed, come to think of it, me neither .
Aside: I haven't been for a few weeks; are the deer/baby downhills still closed for tree surgery?
I know going faster is primarily about the engine, but feeling faster is also important. A couple of my group have 29ers, I'll PM you when we're next there, possibly one evening next week.
I think work is still going on, but should be finished any day now. Planning on a ride this weekend so will have a look. Next week is uncharacteristically busy for me, but deffo drop me a line and i'll try to come along - im always up for rides with new folk.. Aside: I haven't been for a few weeks; are the deer/baby downhills still closed for tree surgery?
I know going faster is primarily about the engine, but feeling faster is also important. A couple of my group have 29ers, I'll PM you when we're next there, possibly one evening next week.
BenGismo - thanks for the thoughts and cold hard data! I will give it more beans this weekend and see if I can get some PRs to avoid shelling out money on hardware
My experience from about 5 years ago when i went from 26" to 29er was an improvement in around 10% on lap times, BUT thats down to the fitness from pushing the 26" and the easier rolling 29er.
So when you initially swap you will be faster no doubt, but that will even itself out over time.
I used to do similar before races by using the fatty for a XC ride so the muscle memory for the weekends race would make me go that much faster again.
So when you initially swap you will be faster no doubt, but that will even itself out over time.
I used to do similar before races by using the fatty for a XC ride so the muscle memory for the weekends race would make me go that much faster again.
On the scale of things Swinley is as un technical as mountain biking can be, let’s face it, it is basically a narrow cobbled fire road I think you’ll be a good bit quicker round there. The cobble / fireroad gravel everything is made of will be significantly smoothed out with some fat 29er rubber, that alone will make it less jarring and take away the beaten up feeling.
Ex 29er owner myself, not my bag but it was absolutely undeniably faster on the boring stuff in XC guise.
The whole pro comparison thing is nonsense as well better kit makes a bigger difference to an average rider than a pro.
Best example I saw recently was a pro at a trail centre help a learner lad with a 90’s full rigid heap of s
t death trap to make less of a Seth trap. The learners mates were openly saying if they rode down a blue on that they’d kill them selves so don’t be harsh on yourself thinking it’s hard work. The pro then said let me just test it for you and took it down a black gravity line he nailed every massive jump and made to look as smooth as if he was on a DH bike.
Ex 29er owner myself, not my bag but it was absolutely undeniably faster on the boring stuff in XC guise.
The whole pro comparison thing is nonsense as well better kit makes a bigger difference to an average rider than a pro.
Best example I saw recently was a pro at a trail centre help a learner lad with a 90’s full rigid heap of s
t death trap to make less of a Seth trap. The learners mates were openly saying if they rode down a blue on that they’d kill them selves so don’t be harsh on yourself thinking it’s hard work. The pro then said let me just test it for you and took it down a black gravity line he nailed every massive jump and made to look as smooth as if he was on a DH bike.Herman Toothrot said:
The whole pro comparison thing is nonsense as well better kit makes a bigger difference to an average rider than a pro.
The professional team with power measurement showing that with the same effort,power and rider on the same course equates to 2.2% difference 26er vs 29er. Its hard to get a more accurate comparision.While that was one specific course....There's no reason why someone putting out less power (an amatuer), but equal power on both wheel sized bikes wouldn't produce similar results.
The difference between wheel sizes was 7 seconds yet the spread in times between riders on the same professional team was more than 20 seconds. And that's the difference between two "pro" riders on the same team.
My point is that most amatuer riders can gain 10%-20%+ speed from fitness which massively overwhelms the difference in bike wheel size anyway. Tyre types and pressures are more important.
Of course your annecdotal "I once saw this at my local park" obviously outweighs a professionally written scientific paper with actual published results. Im quite wary of anyone saying "I found it xx%(normally with a very rounded figure) slower/quicker" as that typically means they just made it up and it was "less" than a accurate test.
Edited by BenGismo on Thursday 31st May 14:20
It’s basic common sense that two experts at what they do will do well regardless of their equipment.
Someone who is not an expert will benefit more greatly that is blindingly obvious to those with common sense.
My example was a real one and I bet loads of people have witnessed very similar things or experienced it for them selves.
Someone who is not an expert will benefit more greatly that is blindingly obvious to those with common sense.
My example was a real one and I bet loads of people have witnessed very similar things or experienced it for them selves.
I hate it when people start threads and never provide a conclusion, so… I weighed up the pros and cons and decided to stick with my 650b hardtail. Then CRC had a £600-off sale at the same time as my work promoted the CycleToWork scheme. So this Vitus Rapide CRX dropped to £1,700, which ultimately should cost me ~£1,300 via C2W. It seemed rude not to…
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/vitus-rapide-cr...
It arrived on Saturday, and pre-pedals weighed in at 10.4kg – that’s with alloy handlebar and seatpost, and average wheels and tyres, so theres some scope for upgradings to get it sub-10kg quite easily.
Being insanely hot, and me not feeling great anyway, I headed out for a spin around the short Swinley Blue route. Box-fresh skinny tyres slipped all over the cobbles, and the dust everywhere else was like an oil slick. Came home to find not a single Strava medal – not even a “3rd fastest time” on any section. Felt quite despondent… I was also in cold sweats and dizzy, so maybe I wasn’t at optimum.
Over the next couple of days I flipped the stem upside down, and fiddled around a bit with saddle height and placement.
Last night I thought I’d have my 2nd ride on it – only time for a quick one so decided just to stick to fireroads and go for speed, to continue wearing the tyres in and getting familiar with it. Came home to find PRs on a few sections, and not just that, but decent times compared to some of the sponsored riders I follow on Strava.
Conclusions:
- My fitness in 2018 isnt what it was in the past couple of years – a new job means I cant cycle to work so the road bike isn’t getting any attention. I must make more of an effort on that for the cardio/cadence training.
- On long/flat sections the big wheels are undeniably faster
- On the bumpy/technical sections its like a bucking broncho, as my 650b is too. However, im hoping with familiarity with the bike I can at least get the speeds to what the 650b achieved
- The dinner-plate sized large cog on the Eagle 12-speed cassette is impressive – but ive yet to tackle a hill that needs it!
Ive not done an amateur XC race for a couple of years now, but the next one around Swinners is in November, so I shall aim to enter that and train accordingly for the rest of the summer/autumn…
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/vitus-rapide-cr...
It arrived on Saturday, and pre-pedals weighed in at 10.4kg – that’s with alloy handlebar and seatpost, and average wheels and tyres, so theres some scope for upgradings to get it sub-10kg quite easily.
Being insanely hot, and me not feeling great anyway, I headed out for a spin around the short Swinley Blue route. Box-fresh skinny tyres slipped all over the cobbles, and the dust everywhere else was like an oil slick. Came home to find not a single Strava medal – not even a “3rd fastest time” on any section. Felt quite despondent… I was also in cold sweats and dizzy, so maybe I wasn’t at optimum.
Over the next couple of days I flipped the stem upside down, and fiddled around a bit with saddle height and placement.
Last night I thought I’d have my 2nd ride on it – only time for a quick one so decided just to stick to fireroads and go for speed, to continue wearing the tyres in and getting familiar with it. Came home to find PRs on a few sections, and not just that, but decent times compared to some of the sponsored riders I follow on Strava.
Conclusions:
- My fitness in 2018 isnt what it was in the past couple of years – a new job means I cant cycle to work so the road bike isn’t getting any attention. I must make more of an effort on that for the cardio/cadence training.
- On long/flat sections the big wheels are undeniably faster
- On the bumpy/technical sections its like a bucking broncho, as my 650b is too. However, im hoping with familiarity with the bike I can at least get the speeds to what the 650b achieved
- The dinner-plate sized large cog on the Eagle 12-speed cassette is impressive – but ive yet to tackle a hill that needs it!
Ive not done an amateur XC race for a couple of years now, but the next one around Swinners is in November, so I shall aim to enter that and train accordingly for the rest of the summer/autumn…
Before it was stolen ( scumbags) I had an On One Scandal 29er, set up ranged from rigid with carbon forks and single speed to 100mm shock and 1x10 depending on how my legs felt, and what I fancied.
I thought it was great round Swinley, yes I am possibly a little faster on my 26er full suspension, but the comments on 29ers being unwieldy and not turning really didn't stack up riding this bike.
Not sure if the frame design helped with the very short rear stays and being a little older design not very slack up front making it twitchy and fast steering but round Swinley was great.
Looking on eBay now for a 29er frame replacement, I am sure I have enough bits to build a new bike somewhere.
scumbags) I had an On One Scandal 29er, set up ranged from rigid with carbon forks and single speed to 100mm shock and 1x10 depending on how my legs felt, and what I fancied. I thought it was great round Swinley, yes I am possibly a little faster on my 26er full suspension, but the comments on 29ers being unwieldy and not turning really didn't stack up riding this bike.
Not sure if the frame design helped with the very short rear stays and being a little older design not very slack up front making it twitchy and fast steering but round Swinley was great.
Looking on eBay now for a 29er frame replacement, I am sure I have enough bits to build a new bike somewhere.
daddy cool said:
Sk00p said:
Is it set up tubeless?
Not yet, no - its on my list of "possible to-dos", as the wheels and tyres are tubeless ready. Mind you, ive never found much of a weight saving from tubeless when you factor in the tape and gunk, vs a race-spec innertube.the punctures bit is also useful, carry a tubeless repair kit with me and haven't had to resort to a tube for as long as I can remember.
Sk00p said:
It's not about the weight although that helps, being able to run low pressures for more grip and better ride. Makes places like Swinley in particular a much more pleasant experience.
the punctures bit is also useful, carry a tubeless repair kit with me and haven't had to resort to a tube for as long as I can remember.
Yeah, I ran tubeless on my carbon rims on the 650b hardtail - trouble was, they were so tight that I couldn't get the tyres off without - eventually - cutting them off with a Stanley knife! So yes, lower pressure and more grip while they worked, but a long way home when I eventually got a catastrophic failure that wouldn't reseal and then couldn't swap to a tube...the punctures bit is also useful, carry a tubeless repair kit with me and haven't had to resort to a tube for as long as I can remember.
Assuming these wheels and tyres are a bit easier to work with, i'll give tubeless another go.
Personally I'm not a fan of 1 x set ups for XC machines. If you are lacking speed then as long as it's not technical that's slowing you up then are you spinning out? If that's the case you either need a larger ring up front or a 2 x set up. My 1993 Saracen is faster on the fireroads than my modern 29er simply by virtue of a 48 tooth front and 11 tooth rear, though it does require a bit of fitness to push it continuously.
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