Training just for aero/power
Discussion
Interesting times in the Summit7 cycle household at the moment.
As I mentioned to Eddie in September I really thought that this year was my one final hurrah at bike racing and that was it. He looked a little perplexed and said surely you'll be racing next year, just one season of racing after getting fit what's the point?
What I didn't say was that I planned to buy a horse (who is in his stable as we speak, next to my wife's horse) and that they would take the x number of hours a day to look after that in the last year I had been riding my bike instead.
So horses installed, road season ended I wondered what I could do on the bike and rode the turbo for just 1/2 an hour each day. I have never turbo'd before always did my training long distance on hills, never believed there was another way.
I have always been a endurance/climber racer never had the outright speed/power to hurt people over a short/flat course. A month after turboing on big gears raising my pulse very high on short sessions I went out on the road today and reduced my "short" training route PB time from 57 to 53 minutes. The distance/time/speed is irrelevant, the gain is everything.
The biggest thing I have concentrated on the turbo is the position, producing power in the lowest, tucked position I can, after years of ridiculing TT'ers there really is some satisfaction in training for a very specific thing. I know I am not as "fit" as I was but have made my body fit the bike so much more to create speed.
Will practice more on that position and get it spot on hopefully over the winter.
As I mentioned to Eddie in September I really thought that this year was my one final hurrah at bike racing and that was it. He looked a little perplexed and said surely you'll be racing next year, just one season of racing after getting fit what's the point?
What I didn't say was that I planned to buy a horse (who is in his stable as we speak, next to my wife's horse) and that they would take the x number of hours a day to look after that in the last year I had been riding my bike instead.
So horses installed, road season ended I wondered what I could do on the bike and rode the turbo for just 1/2 an hour each day. I have never turbo'd before always did my training long distance on hills, never believed there was another way.
I have always been a endurance/climber racer never had the outright speed/power to hurt people over a short/flat course. A month after turboing on big gears raising my pulse very high on short sessions I went out on the road today and reduced my "short" training route PB time from 57 to 53 minutes. The distance/time/speed is irrelevant, the gain is everything.
The biggest thing I have concentrated on the turbo is the position, producing power in the lowest, tucked position I can, after years of ridiculing TT'ers there really is some satisfaction in training for a very specific thing. I know I am not as "fit" as I was but have made my body fit the bike so much more to create speed.
Will practice more on that position and get it spot on hopefully over the winter.
It's important to be aero. Bloke in my club who does mental tt times Off watts i would do on a tempo ride!!
4 mins is a lot though, and suggests you have gained a lot of fitness through the turbo. Not sure what you mean about big gears, the size of gear has little relevance to the power you are able to produce. Cycling is aerobic, pushing a gear at 60rpm to get 300w is not any different to pushing on at 90 rpm to get the same.
4 mins is a lot though, and suggests you have gained a lot of fitness through the turbo. Not sure what you mean about big gears, the size of gear has little relevance to the power you are able to produce. Cycling is aerobic, pushing a gear at 60rpm to get 300w is not any different to pushing on at 90 rpm to get the same.
Edited by okgo on Sunday 11th November 23:33
okgo said:
It's important to be aero. Bloke in my club who does mental tt times Off watts i would do on a tempo ride!!
4 mins is a lot though, and suggests you have gained a lot of fitness through the turbo. Not sure what you mean about big gears, the size of gear has little relevance to the power you are able to produce. Cycling is aerobic, pushing a gear at 60rpm to get 300w is not any different to pushing on at 90 rpm to get the same.
Pushing a big gear on the turbos builds muscle which then translates to pushing a bigger gear than normal on the road than you usually would hence the faster times.4 mins is a lot though, and suggests you have gained a lot of fitness through the turbo. Not sure what you mean about big gears, the size of gear has little relevance to the power you are able to produce. Cycling is aerobic, pushing a gear at 60rpm to get 300w is not any different to pushing on at 90 rpm to get the same.
Edited by okgo on Sunday 11th November 23:33
P.S the turbos help you aerobically as well so double benefit.
Yes, you have to be pretty dense to think otherwise...
Yes of course, everything over 1-2 mins is aerobic as opposed to anaerobic, and 1-2 min power is going to be heavily dictated by your muscle type (fast, or slow twitch fibres) so will only be trainable to a point. And I seriously doubt over gearing is the best way to help with short term power...
I could sqaut more weight than anyone on team sky, so I should be more powerful than them in your book? No, of course I'm not.
Yes of course, everything over 1-2 mins is aerobic as opposed to anaerobic, and 1-2 min power is going to be heavily dictated by your muscle type (fast, or slow twitch fibres) so will only be trainable to a point. And I seriously doubt over gearing is the best way to help with short term power...
I could sqaut more weight than anyone on team sky, so I should be more powerful than them in your book? No, of course I'm not.
Robsti said:
okgo said:
Nah, that's a load of old skool b
ks. 
So you are saying that you can go faster on a bike by improving aerobic ability alone?ks. Does Cancellara Produce the wattage he does by aerobic ability alone?
Edited by Robsti on Monday 12th November 14:34
And basically, yes.
HTH
Given time for their muscles to adapt to cycling they could become very good cyclists yes.
Many good cyclists come from other backgrounds, like rowing. Based on my vo2 I would make a good runner, I've never run really but given a bit of time to get the legs used to the movement and impact my aerobic fitness would take care of the rest.
To think cycling is about leg strength is totally wrong. It's an endurance sport, it's all about aerobic fitness, very little to do with anaerobic.
Many good cyclists come from other backgrounds, like rowing. Based on my vo2 I would make a good runner, I've never run really but given a bit of time to get the legs used to the movement and impact my aerobic fitness would take care of the rest.
To think cycling is about leg strength is totally wrong. It's an endurance sport, it's all about aerobic fitness, very little to do with anaerobic.
No. Not strength.
As I said, I have very strong legs, I still would need time to adapt to running, it's not strength it's just an adaption of muscle. Any performance gains seen in cycling (unless the duration is 30 secs or less I reckon) come because you have increased your aerobic system. Hence what I said to op, the over gearing aspect of his training is irrelevant, he would have seen the same gains riding a higher cadence (as long as intensity is the same) and probably been able to do more of it due to less fatigue.
As I said, I have very strong legs, I still would need time to adapt to running, it's not strength it's just an adaption of muscle. Any performance gains seen in cycling (unless the duration is 30 secs or less I reckon) come because you have increased your aerobic system. Hence what I said to op, the over gearing aspect of his training is irrelevant, he would have seen the same gains riding a higher cadence (as long as intensity is the same) and probably been able to do more of it due to less fatigue.
goldblum said:
Robsti said:
So someone training on a hand cycle to the same aerobic threshold as someone on a standard bike will be able to do the same times in a TT?
It's extremely unlikely, unless the TT was very slow.okgo said:
No. Not strength.
As I said, I have very strong legs, I still would need time to adapt to running, it's not strength it's just an adaption of muscle. Any performance gains seen in cycling (unless the duration is 30 secs or less I reckon) come because you have increased your aerobic system. Hence what I said to op, the over gearing aspect of his training is irrelevant, he would have seen the same gains riding a higher cadence (as long as intensity is the same) and probably been able to do more of it due to less fatigue.
As you have said many many many times on here that you are a fantastic sprinter and a great cyclist,do you maybe think that some of that talent is down to the muscle development due to your weight training?As I said, I have very strong legs, I still would need time to adapt to running, it's not strength it's just an adaption of muscle. Any performance gains seen in cycling (unless the duration is 30 secs or less I reckon) come because you have increased your aerobic system. Hence what I said to op, the over gearing aspect of his training is irrelevant, he would have seen the same gains riding a higher cadence (as long as intensity is the same) and probably been able to do more of it due to less fatigue.
If the person on the handbike had not trained on a roadbike before it is very unlikely he would even come close.
1. Very hard to reach any kind of aerobic intensity on a handbike before lactate threshold is reached.
2. Person who trained on the roadbike will be used to supplying much more oxygen to much more muscle.
3. Person on the bikes legs will have more capillerisation and therefore better oxygen transport.
4. Person on the bike will have much stronger legs. Strength is not a byproduct of aerobic training, but is force against resistance. Don't forget about the headwind either!
1. Very hard to reach any kind of aerobic intensity on a handbike before lactate threshold is reached.
2. Person who trained on the roadbike will be used to supplying much more oxygen to much more muscle.
3. Person on the bikes legs will have more capillerisation and therefore better oxygen transport.
4. Person on the bike will have much stronger legs. Strength is not a byproduct of aerobic training, but is force against resistance. Don't forget about the headwind either!
Robsti said:
As you have said many many many times on here that you are a fantastic sprinter and a great cyclist,do you maybe think that some of that talent is down to the muscle development due to your weight training?
I would imagine that it's down to having a lot of fast twitch muscle. I'm a lot weaker than I was yet I still put out similar power when sprinting as I did when I was bigger. Even when I was unfit I could outspent most of my club mates, I have had to work on my fitness hugely to be able to put out a decent chunk of power over longer periods because that is based on aerobic fitness not neuromuscular power.
My brother in law was a pro footballer and is a fitness fanatic who runs at a very good level and his vo2 level will be much better than mine and he will be 10kg lighter than me.
He cycles a bit but it's more to commute to the gym.
Going by the aerobic theory makes you faster on a bike then I wouldn't see which way he went but he can't even hold my wheel on the flat!
He cycles a bit but it's more to commute to the gym.
Going by the aerobic theory makes you faster on a bike then I wouldn't see which way he went but he can't even hold my wheel on the flat!
It wouldn't take long for him to build the things goldblum mentions and his fitness would eventually put him ahead of you. It's the same heart that sends oxygen to muscles and clears lactic in running as it is in cycling.
I will be trying to prove that theory to myself on the concept 2 and over 5k this winter.
I will be trying to prove that theory to myself on the concept 2 and over 5k this winter.
okgo said:
It wouldn't take long for him to build the things goldblum mentions and his fitness would eventually put him ahead of you. It's the same heart that sends oxygen to muscles and clears lactic in running as it is in cycling.
I will be trying to prove that theory to myself on the concept 2 and over 5k this winter.
4. Person on the bike will have much stronger legs. Strength is not a byproduct of aerobic training, but is force against resistance. Don't forget about the headwind either!I will be trying to prove that theory to myself on the concept 2 and over 5k this winter.
Or greater resistance on turbos due to pushing a bigger gear! "old skill b
kss". 
You don't get it do you.
Strength is only relevant in cycling for very short periods of time, hence trackies have huge legs, to get the thing moving. After 1 or 2 minutes the limiter is your aerobic system.
Why am I an all round faster cyclist now than I was a year ago? I reckon I probably could leg press 50% of what I could 12 months ago, yet I'm far stronger on the bike over all durations!
Strength is only relevant in cycling for very short periods of time, hence trackies have huge legs, to get the thing moving. After 1 or 2 minutes the limiter is your aerobic system.
Why am I an all round faster cyclist now than I was a year ago? I reckon I probably could leg press 50% of what I could 12 months ago, yet I'm far stronger on the bike over all durations!
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