Is the UK the worst place in the world to cycle?
Discussion
Kerniki said:
There seems to be quite a lot of anger in there.. maybe not riding in the gutter is a good idea to 
maybe.. there’s a healthy compromise?
Anyway, question was, still.. has two abreast helped safety for the more vulnerable of the two parties? or has it made things worse?
Don’t know, I’m not suggesting anyone rides a specific way other than which is safest
It’s an interesting point. Two abreast riding has been around for decades, but cycling has boomed since the 2012 olympics so there’s a lot more people out on bikes now, and because of this, more accidents. IMO helmets do help prevent injuries, however this is also a heavily debateable subject as some commentators point to research saying they don’t particularly help. Also IMO riding two abreast doesn’t, per se, cause additional injuries, but I fully understand it can antagonise drivers behind which might lead to impatience and escalate to an incident. maybe.. there’s a healthy compromise?Anyway, question was, still.. has two abreast helped safety for the more vulnerable of the two parties? or has it made things worse?
Don’t know, I’m not suggesting anyone rides a specific way other than which is safest
In the cycling world, guidance (official bodies) suggests it’s safer to ride in the primary position. This is unfortunately misconstrued by drivers as some form of cycling entitlement or arrogance.
The problems stem from - lack of patience, lack of awareness, and the labeling and creation of two distinct groups at odds with each other.
768 said:
CellarDoor said:
What should happen in these instances? Driver waits behind cyclists for x miles until road widens, driver beeps to indicate their presence, cyclists ride single file, cyclists pull over, etc?
Whatever works to ensure the slow moving vehicle doesn't hold up traffic. I'd think single file would be sufficient in the image, but they should pull over if not.When cyclists ride two abreast on narrow lines and go past one layby after another whilst a line of traffic forms behind them what is the solution? Are they not aware of vehicles behind them, if so, would a beep be courteous or is that aggressive? Or is it a case that cyclists have a different view and therefore believe that riding in manner that prevents vehicles overtaking is the correct use of the road?
768 said:
CellarDoor said:
What should happen in these instances? Driver waits behind cyclists for x miles until road widens, driver beeps to indicate their presence, cyclists ride single file, cyclists pull over, etc?
Whatever works to ensure the slow moving vehicle doesn't hold up traffic. I'd think single file would be sufficient in the image, but they should pull over if not."You should be considerate of the needs of other road users when riding in groups. You can ride two abreast and it can be safer to do so, particularly in larger groups or when accompanying children or less experienced riders. Be aware of drivers behind you and allow them to overtake (for example, by moving into single file or stopping) when you feel it is safe to let them do so"
The bold bit is interesting as it gives the cyclist licence to decide when the driver can overtake, which I feel is firstly not very widely known, and secondly open to a fair bit of contentious interpretation.
Awaiting the "yeah but drivers..." comments.
-Lummox- said:
Oh look, another "entitled road users fume about entitled road users" thread!
And once again can probably be summed up by saying there are bad road users in all forms of transport, including walking, cycling and driving - and the situation could be vastly improved by everyone being a bit more thoughtful and considerate of everyone else's right to use the road - rather than trying to impose a heirachy of worthiness.
As for the knuckle-dragging "PAY YER TAAAXXXXX!!!!" types... "road tax" as it's commonly and wrongly referred to is calculated on emissions, emissions of a bicycle are zero, so cyclists are already ready paying the applicable amount of "road tax" for the emissions of their vehicle - £0.
Yeah, but then we wouldn't get great comments like this:And once again can probably be summed up by saying there are bad road users in all forms of transport, including walking, cycling and driving - and the situation could be vastly improved by everyone being a bit more thoughtful and considerate of everyone else's right to use the road - rather than trying to impose a heirachy of worthiness.
As for the knuckle-dragging "PAY YER TAAAXXXXX!!!!" types... "road tax" as it's commonly and wrongly referred to is calculated on emissions, emissions of a bicycle are zero, so cyclists are already ready paying the applicable amount of "road tax" for the emissions of their vehicle - £0.
A500leroy said:
Roads are used for business travel and more cyclists seem intent on going out for a leisure ride at peek commute time which doesnt help.
thepritch said:
The problems stem from - lack of patience, lack of awareness, and the labeling and creation of two distinct groups at odds with each other.
Having moved abroad I find it even more noticable how "them and us" it is in the UK. There's also a massively different cycling demographic. In the UK (possibly less true in city centres) it seems the average cyclist is a roadie. Here in NL the average cyclists is a middle aged parent on the way to work having dropped thier kid off on the way. As a result the vast majority of drivers are also cyclists so seem to be way more aware of them. Plus the added bonus that that queue of a dozen cyclists at the traffic lights are slowing you down a lot less than the queue of a dozen cars would if they all drove to work.Does better infrastructure and more awareness by drivers increase the number of cyclists, or do higher numbers of cyclists drive better infrastructure and awareness?
The UK is probably far from the worst place to ride, but it's crap to compared to the Netherlands, Denmark or Germany.
When I was contracting, I tried to get digs within 4 or 5 miles of my contract, so I could cycle 3 days a week.
I can tell you that Derby is without doubt, one of the best places to cycle, because there was ££££££ investment in cycling infrastructure. I could pretty much get around the city without going near a main road.
Get a couple of miles out of the city, and you are putting your life in the hands of w
kers.
I did some work in Wolverhampton, they had no infrastructure, but never felt unsafe. Mind you I didn't attempt to cycle around the inner ring road. Instead I headed to the towpath of the canal, which took me exactly where I needed to go. (Nearly fell in the canal once)
Hemel Hempstead was pretty good too.
I now live too far from work to comute, but I can get from Liverpool to Southport mostly on cycle paths, and side roads with no traffic. I often cycle to Crosby beach from Formby when the weather is nice. Now real cyclists would they go down the coast path ?
I avoid the "Moss" because B roads and wkers. They will kill you.
I can tell you that Derby is without doubt, one of the best places to cycle, because there was ££££££ investment in cycling infrastructure. I could pretty much get around the city without going near a main road.
Get a couple of miles out of the city, and you are putting your life in the hands of w
kers. I did some work in Wolverhampton, they had no infrastructure, but never felt unsafe. Mind you I didn't attempt to cycle around the inner ring road. Instead I headed to the towpath of the canal, which took me exactly where I needed to go. (Nearly fell in the canal once)
Hemel Hempstead was pretty good too.
I now live too far from work to comute, but I can get from Liverpool to Southport mostly on cycle paths, and side roads with no traffic. I often cycle to Crosby beach from Formby when the weather is nice. Now real cyclists would they go down the coast path ?
I avoid the "Moss" because B roads and w
kers. They will kill you. Rusty Old-Banger said:
An example. We have a road that has on average 7 bikes/day. There is a parallel route through a park that cyclists (including my kids) use, that adds 200m on to a 2km journey, but it is a much more pleasant route. They want us to add measures to reduce vehicles on this route from 10k/day, to 2k/day, and add provision for 600 cyclists PER HOUR. Sod the impact putting 8k cars on alternative routes will have. They want it, and if they don't get it they will speak to everyone from the leader of the council to the SecState for Transport. Utterly unreasonable, and puts everyone's backs up - drivers, bus companies, taxis, people on school runs, commuters, everyone. For 7 cycles a day who have a lovely, green, alternative route.
The Dutch approach to narrow roads where there is a decent cycle path alternative is to ban bikes from that section of road. That sound like an ideal candidate road for that sort of setup, not sure you legally can in the UK though.LRDefender said:
Jordie Barretts sock said:
I fear the OP is not going to get the responses he expects. Which is unsurprising considering this is a motoring website.
Perhaps Mumsnet or a cycling forum would be a better option?
I absolutely despise cyclists that ride with an arrogance of self entitlement. I have no problem with cyclists who are aware of where they are cycling, aware of the queue behind them and pull over or make space for traffic to overtake. Much the same as tractors and farm machinery on the road.
Despise? Strong words…. Perhaps Mumsnet or a cycling forum would be a better option?
I absolutely despise cyclists that ride with an arrogance of self entitlement. I have no problem with cyclists who are aware of where they are cycling, aware of the queue behind them and pull over or make space for traffic to overtake. Much the same as tractors and farm machinery on the road.
Do you feel the same way about slower motorists that don’t pull over when other (more skilled & deserving?) drivers show a complete lack of patience when making progress?
Having cycled in the U.K. and many other countries it is noticeable how a minority of UK motorists appear massively self entitled with little consideration for other more vulnerable road users. I guess it’s similar in other countries too……
CellarDoor said:
But why doesn't this happen?
When cyclists ride two abreast on narrow lines and go past one layby after another whilst a line of traffic forms behind them what is the solution? Are they not aware of vehicles behind them, if so, would a beep be courteous or is that aggressive? Or is it a case that cyclists have a different view and therefore believe that riding in manner that prevents vehicles overtaking is the correct use of the road?
But you could say the same about the old dears bimbling along to the farm shop doing two thirds the posted limit. Why don't they ever pull over and let faster traffic past? Or caravans? Motorhomes? Cars towing trailers? Horseboxes? Basically anything motorised holding traffic up. As far as my experience goes, tractors are the only ones that ever pull over, yet I've been stuck for miles behind caravans doing 30ish on 60mph roads.When cyclists ride two abreast on narrow lines and go past one layby after another whilst a line of traffic forms behind them what is the solution? Are they not aware of vehicles behind them, if so, would a beep be courteous or is that aggressive? Or is it a case that cyclists have a different view and therefore believe that riding in manner that prevents vehicles overtaking is the correct use of the road?
Yet we expect cyclists to get out the way as soon as something's behind them...
-Lummox- said:
...
Yeah, but then we wouldn't get great comments like this:
Yep - that one is special. I do hope that poster only ever uses his car during the week to go to work, never to take the kids to school, do the shopping or (god forbid), go for a hoon. And his mind is going to be blown when he finds out most cyclists during 'peek commute' time are actually cycling to work !!Yeah, but then we wouldn't get great comments like this:
A500leroy said:
Roads are used for business travel and more cyclists seem intent on going out for a leisure ride at peek commute time which doesnt help.
I ride quite a lot, but virtually only ever alone, partly because I don't want to get up early for a club ride, and partly because I don't want the stress/hassle of dealing with a club riding attitude.
However, even riding alone, keeping left and waving drivers past at narrow spots they might hold back at, you still get a significant minority of drivers who blast past without slowing to assess the situation, passing on blind bends, blind summits, across solid lines when I'm doing 30mph+ on a bend downhill, and then yesterday a driver who overtook me and then immediately braked in front to turn into their driveway!
However, even riding alone, keeping left and waving drivers past at narrow spots they might hold back at, you still get a significant minority of drivers who blast past without slowing to assess the situation, passing on blind bends, blind summits, across solid lines when I'm doing 30mph+ on a bend downhill, and then yesterday a driver who overtook me and then immediately braked in front to turn into their driveway!
Blib said:
One item that improves my cycling enjoyment no end is an offside mirror attached to my bike's handlebar.
Apparently, lycra and mirrors don't go together, in many cyclist's opinions.
I just use a Garmin Varia, far better than a mirror.Apparently, lycra and mirrors don't go together, in many cyclist's opinions.
Edited by Gareth79 on Thursday 6th June 14:56
Jordie Barretts sock said:
I fear the OP is not going to get the responses he expects. Which is unsurprising considering this is a motoring website.
Perhaps Mumsnet or a cycling forum would be a better option?
I absolutely despise cyclists that ride with an arrogance of self entitlement. I have no problem with cyclists who are aware of where they are cycling, aware of the queue behind them and pull over or make space for traffic to overtake. Much the same as tractors and farm machinery on the road.
This was exactly the response I expected. Words such as ‘arrogant, entitled and despise’. Sneering comments re mumsnet. Prejudices about meat headed UK motorists very much confirmed. Perhaps Mumsnet or a cycling forum would be a better option?
I absolutely despise cyclists that ride with an arrogance of self entitlement. I have no problem with cyclists who are aware of where they are cycling, aware of the queue behind them and pull over or make space for traffic to overtake. Much the same as tractors and farm machinery on the road.
spookly said:
I'm always very considerate of cyclists and give them plenty of room.
But.... they annoy the sh*t out of me regularly. No problem with people using them for transport, but when it's gangs of them on country roads they are deciding to inconvenience other people for their hobby. I've never had a cyclist or group of cyclists pull over to let traffic pass. It is a very selfish hobby when they are riding routes that they will get in the way of others. That in no way excuses the muppets who shout abuse or unsafely pass cyclists, but I totally understand why the average motorist finds cyclists annoying because they are annoying and selfish.
How often do you pull over to let faster drivers/riders past?But.... they annoy the sh*t out of me regularly. No problem with people using them for transport, but when it's gangs of them on country roads they are deciding to inconvenience other people for their hobby. I've never had a cyclist or group of cyclists pull over to let traffic pass. It is a very selfish hobby when they are riding routes that they will get in the way of others. That in no way excuses the muppets who shout abuse or unsafely pass cyclists, but I totally understand why the average motorist finds cyclists annoying because they are annoying and selfish.
And how often have you been stuck in traffic jams caused by bikes Vs vehicles? Who is the worst inconvenience-r?
Worst in the world, no.
The roads are terrible, and some drivers inconsiderate. But it's not the worst in the world.
I know many road users get annoyed at each other for what they perceive to be breaking the Law, although many on both sides either don't know or fail to adhere to the Highway Code.
The roads are terrible, and some drivers inconsiderate. But it's not the worst in the world.
I know many road users get annoyed at each other for what they perceive to be breaking the Law, although many on both sides either don't know or fail to adhere to the Highway Code.
Riley Blue said:
nickfrog said:
Two abreast often makes overtaking easier as it shortens the thing to overtake and reduces TED.
Not when there's a strung out group riding two abreast with insufficient room to pull back in between them.PlywoodPascal said:
Jordie Barretts sock said:
I fear the OP is not going to get the responses he expects. Which is unsurprising considering this is a motoring website.
Perhaps Mumsnet or a cycling forum would be a better option?
I absolutely despise cyclists that ride with an arrogance of self entitlement. I have no problem with cyclists who are aware of where they are cycling, aware of the queue behind them and pull over or make space for traffic to overtake. Much the same as tractors and farm machinery on the road.
Entitlement Perhaps Mumsnet or a cycling forum would be a better option?
I absolutely despise cyclists that ride with an arrogance of self entitlement. I have no problem with cyclists who are aware of where they are cycling, aware of the queue behind them and pull over or make space for traffic to overtake. Much the same as tractors and farm machinery on the road.
Kerniki said:
ChocolateFrog said:
Kerniki said:
When did the two abreast thing start?
Records show serious injuries have steadily climbed since 2004 but not sure if the % of population cycling on the roads has increased which could account for the number increase, helmet use has increased at the same time so would help curtail the serious injury count, lots of factors i guess but i cant see riding two abreast as helping the cause to avoid accidents / injury tbh, certainly antagonises drivers which cant be good when you’re on a bike vs 2t of metal.
Classic victim blaming.Records show serious injuries have steadily climbed since 2004 but not sure if the % of population cycling on the roads has increased which could account for the number increase, helmet use has increased at the same time so would help curtail the serious injury count, lots of factors i guess but i cant see riding two abreast as helping the cause to avoid accidents / injury tbh, certainly antagonises drivers which cant be good when you’re on a bike vs 2t of metal.
Why do you in your 2t vehicle have more right to that space than someone without the protection of a few tons of metal.
Single or two abreast shouldn't make a blind bit of difference to your ability to overtake. You still need a gap in the traffic coming the other way.
You can’t escape the difference of mass and vulnerability, irrespective of rights, more about self preservation tbh, having common sense to not put yourself in more dangerous situations, I’m very self aware of this when riding
Rusty Old-Banger said:
redrabbit29 said:
Labelling people who enjoy cycling as "a parade of lycra fanatics" does nothing but divide people more.
No, but "fanatics" do exist, and don't help. (Maybe sliding O/T here)
We have a local cycle "campaign" (as if it's a war!!) who are incredibly vocal about any and every roads scheme that is brought to administration. I could write reams about the number of schemes in which they have demanded absolutely ridiculous concessions for cyclists, threatening to write to (and in several cases, actually doing it) the DfT, Michael Gove, etc etc. One of the head honchos of this campaign doesn't work, doesn't drive, has no kids to get to school, etc etc but thinks nothing of trying to disrupt delivery of improvement schemes (which may be there to tackle a specific problem for cars, or to improve bus travel, etc), just so he can crow about it in his newsletter.
An example. We have a road that has on average 7 bikes/day. There is a parallel route through a park that cyclists (including my kids) use, that adds 200m on to a 2km journey, but it is a much more pleasant route. They want us to add measures to reduce vehicles on this route from 10k/day, to 2k/day, and add provision for 600 cyclists PER HOUR. Sod the impact putting 8k cars on alternative routes will have. They want it, and if they don't get it they will speak to everyone from the leader of the council to the SecState for Transport. Utterly unreasonable, and puts everyone's backs up - drivers, bus companies, taxis, people on school runs, commuters, everyone. For 7 cycles a day who have a lovely, green, alternative route.
So no, not the worst place to cycle, but it is certainly NOT helped but the blinkered cycling lobby.
Edited by Rusty Old-Banger on Thursday 6th June 09:33
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