Hillclimb - why are just F1 cars banned from setting times?
Discussion
IIRC the only fatality at Goodwood was an F1 car.
John Dawson Damer’s Lotus 63 hit the finish barrier & a Marshall Andrew Carpenter was hit.
Both died.
I would imagine that a blanket ban was likely imposed shortly after and no-one has rescinded it since.
As you can see current F1 cars flat chat at Silverstone I would think there is no appetite to change the status quo.
For my 2 cents I actually enjoy the F1 cars going slower as you can actually see the damn things!
John Dawson Damer’s Lotus 63 hit the finish barrier & a Marshall Andrew Carpenter was hit.
Both died.
I would imagine that a blanket ban was likely imposed shortly after and no-one has rescinded it since.
As you can see current F1 cars flat chat at Silverstone I would think there is no appetite to change the status quo.
For my 2 cents I actually enjoy the F1 cars going slower as you can actually see the damn things!
Yes for the demonstration runs I agree but for the shootout it seems it should be the fastest cars available.
Looks likely the record will fall later this afternoon if the weather stays dry and whilst I agree the electric cars are an impressive spectacle I’d like to see a prepped f1 car have another crack.
Looks likely the record will fall later this afternoon if the weather stays dry and whilst I agree the electric cars are an impressive spectacle I’d like to see a prepped f1 car have another crack.
paulw123 said:
Yes for the demonstration runs I agree but for the shootout it seems it should be the fastest cars available.
Looks likely the record will fall later this afternoon if the weather stays dry and whilst I agree the electric cars are an impressive spectacle I’d like to see a prepped f1 car have another crack.
The shootout is highly curated by Goodwood, typically with a small pool of trusted drivers and few cars that are going to be close to 40 seconds. I personally think that's fair enough, they want to attract certain drivers, certain manufacturers etc and do a damn good job of that, especially in the current climate.Looks likely the record will fall later this afternoon if the weather stays dry and whilst I agree the electric cars are an impressive spectacle I’d like to see a prepped f1 car have another crack.
I don't think they'd attract 50,000 a day to watch a bunch of Goulds and specials go up the hill from the British HillClimb Championship (as much I enjoy going to Gurston, Wiscombe etc). Ultimately the timed shootout is a fun sideshow.
Also from a safety aspect, I and I'm sure most others like the extremely good access and viewing we get. 2 haybales doesn't really cut for a full balls to the wall hillclimb competition with multiple drivers dipping under 40 seconds. I was at Wiscombe a few weeks back and we had a 5 hour delay and an air ambulance on the hill. Goodwood simply can't afford that sort of incident to disrupt a day to that degree, they'll have loads of balls to juggle including keeping manufacturers sweet, sponsors, TV coverage etc. Remember Speedweek? Run at huge cost simply because they had deals that needed a certain amount of exposure but no way of running a normal event because of COVID.
Ultimately I think it's easy to take FoS for granted in this country, but it's one of the best events in the world attracting cars, manufacturers and drivers you simply won't see together anywhere else. The amount of spectators who travel from Europe, US etc just to attend is staggering, puts it into perspective.
paulw123 said:
Wondered why F1 cars can’t set times but every year a new electric car is allowed to have a crack at the hillclimb record. Can’t be due to safety as they exceed the speeds last set by Nick heidfelts mclaren?
Just seems like trying to gift the record to a electric car.
Completely agree. Just seems like trying to gift the record to a electric car.
ch37 said:
paulw123 said:
Yes for the demonstration runs I agree but for the shootout it seems it should be the fastest cars available.
Looks likely the record will fall later this afternoon if the weather stays dry and whilst I agree the electric cars are an impressive spectacle I’d like to see a prepped f1 car have another crack.
Ultimately I think it's easy to take FoS for granted in this country, but it's one of the best events in the world attracting cars, manufacturers and drivers you simply won't see together anywhere else. The amount of spectators who travel from Europe, US etc just to attend is staggering, puts it into perspective.Looks likely the record will fall later this afternoon if the weather stays dry and whilst I agree the electric cars are an impressive spectacle I’d like to see a prepped f1 car have another crack.
Not saying it should be turned into a full on hill climb competition by any means but I assume it’s just politics that allows cutting edge vehicles to have a attempt at the record but not older ones as there is certainly no real health and safety basis.
Unreal said:
paulw123 said:
Wondered why F1 cars can’t set times but every year a new electric car is allowed to have a crack at the hillclimb record. Can’t be due to safety as they exceed the speeds last set by Nick heidfelts mclaren?
Just seems like trying to gift the record to a electric car.
Completely agree. Just seems like trying to gift the record to a electric car.
I suspect there is a Gentleman's Agreement among the F1 teams not to out-do each other by setting a time - they all seem to stop and do doughnuts etc and put on a show.
If they actually tried they would quite likely be embarassed by a proper hillclimb cars (with drivers used to narrow courses) or some random EV with a million horsepower and a range of a mile and a half.
If they actually tried they would quite likely be embarassed by a proper hillclimb cars (with drivers used to narrow courses) or some random EV with a million horsepower and a range of a mile and a half.
Truckosaurus said:
I suspect there is a Gentleman's Agreement among the F1 teams not to out-do each other by setting a time - they all seem to stop and do doughnuts etc and put on a show.
If they actually tried they would quite likely be embarassed by a proper hillclimb cars (with drivers used to narrow courses) or some random EV with a million horsepower and a range of a mile and a half.
Quite - I suspect a Gould or similar with a top hillclimb driver in it would beat a current F1. They’re designed for different purposes with different rules.If they actually tried they would quite likely be embarassed by a proper hillclimb cars (with drivers used to narrow courses) or some random EV with a million horsepower and a range of a mile and a half.
ChevronB19 said:
Truckosaurus said:
I suspect there is a Gentleman's Agreement among the F1 teams not to out-do each other by setting a time - they all seem to stop and do doughnuts etc and put on a show.
If they actually tried they would quite likely be embarassed by a proper hillclimb cars (with drivers used to narrow courses) or some random EV with a million horsepower and a range of a mile and a half.
Quite - I suspect a Gould or similar with a top hillclimb driver in it would beat a current F1. They’re designed for different purposes with different rules.If they actually tried they would quite likely be embarassed by a proper hillclimb cars (with drivers used to narrow courses) or some random EV with a million horsepower and a range of a mile and a half.
abarth16v said:
ChevronB19 said:
Truckosaurus said:
I suspect there is a Gentleman's Agreement among the F1 teams not to out-do each other by setting a time - they all seem to stop and do doughnuts etc and put on a show.
If they actually tried they would quite likely be embarassed by a proper hillclimb cars (with drivers used to narrow courses) or some random EV with a million horsepower and a range of a mile and a half.
Quite - I suspect a Gould or similar with a top hillclimb driver in it would beat a current F1. They’re designed for different purposes with different rules.If they actually tried they would quite likely be embarassed by a proper hillclimb cars (with drivers used to narrow courses) or some random EV with a million horsepower and a range of a mile and a half.
I'm sure a hill climb car would be very fast up a hill climb. But what sort of spectacle does that provide beyond a car driving fast?
Truckosaurus said:
C70R said:
...
I'm sure a hill climb car would be very fast up a hill climb. But what sort of spectacle does that provide beyond a car driving fast?
Indeed. The event would be no poorer if there was no timing.I'm sure a hill climb car would be very fast up a hill climb. But what sort of spectacle does that provide beyond a car driving fast?
Is it not due to FIA restrictions on timed testing? I’m sure if an F1 team allowed their car to be timed up the hill a rival team would complain that they are sneaking in additional testing time. I would not put it past an F1 team to test new bits on an old car at a hill climb event if they got the chance.
Goodwood banned F1 cars from setting times in 2000 - 22 years ago so they weren’t banned to ensure an EV won it 
most of the records since have been ICE cars, in-fact the only EVs to hold it are the ID.R and this car.
Furthermore, for those who think a top hillclimber in their own car would ‘smash’ the record… Graeme Wright Jr ran up in a Gould car and ‘only’ managed 42.6s
There is no EV conspiracy, you old boys just need to accept that the EVs are coming and they are rapid.
As for having a load of hillclimb guys come and challenge the record every year, I agree that would offer good competition but it would be relatively crap to watch, Goodwood FOS visitors want to see the latest technology and race cars with provenance and legendary drivers they remember from race series in years gone by.
most of the records since have been ICE cars, in-fact the only EVs to hold it are the ID.R and this car.Furthermore, for those who think a top hillclimber in their own car would ‘smash’ the record… Graeme Wright Jr ran up in a Gould car and ‘only’ managed 42.6s
There is no EV conspiracy, you old boys just need to accept that the EVs are coming and they are rapid.
As for having a load of hillclimb guys come and challenge the record every year, I agree that would offer good competition but it would be relatively crap to watch, Goodwood FOS visitors want to see the latest technology and race cars with provenance and legendary drivers they remember from race series in years gone by.
I was checking on some old discussions on other forums regarding the fatalities that occurred in the year 2000. Amazingly, I found a post by myself and was surprised at my own final comment - which seemed to predict what actually happened regarding attitude to the timed runs - although my expectation that Heidfeld's 1999 record would never be broken proved incorrect.. Here is my post which was made to an old Autosport forum on 26 June 2000 - 21 year ago 
Original Post
As Ray Bell mentions further up the thread, I have been providing some updates on the Goodwood Festival in the Nostalgia Forum. I did not see the accident - I don't even think it was shown on British TV. The car involved was a 4 wheel drive Lotus 63, one of two made by Lotus in 1969.
On Sunday, Tony Smith comprehensively stuffed a Maserati Tipo 61 "Birdcage" into the hay bales at Mulcombe corner. It was a high speed off but the bales did their job, the front of the car being heavily bent but the driver walking (or more accurately - hobbling) away. In many respects, hay bales are far more effective than Armco. Don't forget, Armco was installed at race circuits originally to prevent cars going into the crowd, not to protect the driver.
There were also a number of accidents involving the charity Soap Box Challenge on Saturday, with two drivers (if that's what you call the occupant of a soap box) being taken to hospital.
The incident invoving the ex-Gilles Villenueve Ferrari (actually owned by Nick Mason)happened at the 1994 event. The driver, Mike Wilds, lost control just after he passed under the footbridge and proceeded up the hill sideways until he hit the kerbing at the paddock entrance. The impact (which sounded like a rifle going off) took the entire front end off the car, severly injuring his legs. The accident happened right in front of me and I caught the whole thing on my video camera. Apparently, the car was running on its original 1978 slicks! Both Mike and the car have now fully recovered.
I think the events of the week-end will prompt Lord March to re-think the format of the "Festival" with far less emphasis on timed runs and far more on entertaining the public. I felt last year that Nick Heidfeld's record in the McLaren was almost too fast for the hill - my hunch is now that it will be a record which will never be broken.
Original Post
As Ray Bell mentions further up the thread, I have been providing some updates on the Goodwood Festival in the Nostalgia Forum. I did not see the accident - I don't even think it was shown on British TV. The car involved was a 4 wheel drive Lotus 63, one of two made by Lotus in 1969.
On Sunday, Tony Smith comprehensively stuffed a Maserati Tipo 61 "Birdcage" into the hay bales at Mulcombe corner. It was a high speed off but the bales did their job, the front of the car being heavily bent but the driver walking (or more accurately - hobbling) away. In many respects, hay bales are far more effective than Armco. Don't forget, Armco was installed at race circuits originally to prevent cars going into the crowd, not to protect the driver.
There were also a number of accidents involving the charity Soap Box Challenge on Saturday, with two drivers (if that's what you call the occupant of a soap box) being taken to hospital.
The incident invoving the ex-Gilles Villenueve Ferrari (actually owned by Nick Mason)happened at the 1994 event. The driver, Mike Wilds, lost control just after he passed under the footbridge and proceeded up the hill sideways until he hit the kerbing at the paddock entrance. The impact (which sounded like a rifle going off) took the entire front end off the car, severly injuring his legs. The accident happened right in front of me and I caught the whole thing on my video camera. Apparently, the car was running on its original 1978 slicks! Both Mike and the car have now fully recovered.
I think the events of the week-end will prompt Lord March to re-think the format of the "Festival" with far less emphasis on timed runs and far more on entertaining the public. I felt last year that Nick Heidfeld's record in the McLaren was almost too fast for the hill - my hunch is now that it will be a record which will never be broken.
I guess if the purpose of the shootout is to find the fastest vehicle up the course then it works on that basis. As a competitive event it doesn’t. But, I guess that’s the point in that it’s not really a competition it’s an event that showcases old and new. On that basis it does give the opportunity for spectators to see the development of vehicles from the latest to the oldest.
I would suspect that with the British F1 grand prix following on so quickly after Goodwood that is more of a priority anyway than Goodwood for the teams
Maybe there is a case for splitting the shootout into separate groups such as EV and concept cars. With historic vehicles in another group.
I can’t say I’m the greatest fan of the overwhelming push of EV vehicles. But, that’s where we are.
The spectators numbers at the event clearly show that it is a very popular one. So, I think if the shootout is put into perspective as a showcase rather than a competition it makes more sense.
I would suspect that with the British F1 grand prix following on so quickly after Goodwood that is more of a priority anyway than Goodwood for the teams
Maybe there is a case for splitting the shootout into separate groups such as EV and concept cars. With historic vehicles in another group.
I can’t say I’m the greatest fan of the overwhelming push of EV vehicles. But, that’s where we are.
The spectators numbers at the event clearly show that it is a very popular one. So, I think if the shootout is put into perspective as a showcase rather than a competition it makes more sense.
The Goodwood 'feedback email' which has arrived in my inbox is dominated by questions about electric cars. Make of that what you will.
In terms of records, I think the best way to satisfy all parties would be to have different categories for ICE cars, EVs and any other people think is necessary.
Claiming outright records when only one category is allowed to compete is rather disingenuous.
In terms of records, I think the best way to satisfy all parties would be to have different categories for ICE cars, EVs and any other people think is necessary.
Claiming outright records when only one category is allowed to compete is rather disingenuous.
The original idea for the Festival was that it was a "test" event as part of Lord March's plans to open up the circuit for historic racing. In the years 1990 to 1997 he was lobbying Chichester Council to have the circuit reopened for racing. In the meantime, he was able to get permission for a relatively minor "showcase" event in the grounds of Goodwood House. This became the Festival which has, of course, become a major event in its own right.
For me, it was the quality of the historic cars that were the draw and the the Hillclimb itself was just a chance to see and hear these cars actually running.
As next year is the 30th anniversary, I hope to make a return to the Festival after a gap of over 10 years.
For me, it was the quality of the historic cars that were the draw and the the Hillclimb itself was just a chance to see and hear these cars actually running.
As next year is the 30th anniversary, I hope to make a return to the Festival after a gap of over 10 years.
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