Esprit Track Day -- WOOHOO
Discussion
Just got back from a weekend at Carolina Motorsports Park in Kershaw, South Carolina. Great weekend, very impressed with the car as a track toy. Some of this is akin to automotive masturbation, but here's a long discourse on the weekend.
Car: 1993.5 stock SE, only upgrades were EBC greens (they SUCK they SUCK), Motul in the MC, and "R" compound RA-1 Toyos.
Me: About 6 track weekends in a BMW M Coupe (great car, GREAT brakes), then a season and a half of wheel to wheel racing in a ITS TR8.
First off, amazing what you can get into this car if you have to. I got a 10X10 easy up, a jack, two jack stands, fluids, clothes for the weekend, a brake bleeder and some light tools. Not bad at all.
Drove to track. Got ticket in Shitville, SC. Price of ownership I suppose.
Porsche Club events (at least in this region) are a pretty good show. Not as uptight as the BMW schools, but still serious enough about safety, etc. that I felt comfortable out there with a street car.
And MAN, do the Porsches come out. There were those Cup cars (full on fire belching racers), 911 Turbos, "normal" 911s of all types, many modded 944s, pretty neat stuff.
I was there with a buddy in a Viper GTS Coupe. Very cool car, man does it rumble.
Saturday was cool, and wet in the morning. I was sent out solo, and (a) didn't know the track and (b) didn't know the car, so I was a bit apprehensive. Plus, the track was damp. So I took it easy, but within a few laps had the line down except in a few places. Mind you, lots to learn about really going fast, but CMP is a straightforward track and the line "makes sense" if that makes sense.
The Esprit is a near-fantastic track car. Gobs of power on the straights. No normally aspirated 911 (includinga new GT3) could run with it. No 944 or 944 Turboe could run with it. No Boxster or Boxters S could run with it.
Well balanced car in the corners. Turn in is great, classic "you turn NOW" mid-engined feel. It doesn't (or mine doesn't any way) push like I had read SEs do. I never had a situation where the nose plowed. If I carried too much speed in or turned in too sharply, back end would squiggle a bit, and I'd have to let the car drift a bit wide to get it back.
NEVER really let me get in trouble in mid-corner. VERY balanced under throttle. Point the nose, smoothly apply power and away you go. A couple of wiggles under power, but nothing major. In my view, the tire/wheel/shock/spring combo on the car is pretty good. There is LOTS of body roll, but I'm not sure with the four wheel wishbone/independent suspension that it matters all that much in a driver's education type event. All four wheels stay planted. It's not like a Mustang (or a TR8) with a live rear axle, where you run ridiculous spring rates to keep the car flat.
Not sure though. I may play some with the suspension, although riding home, I am reminded how good of a compromise job Lotus did with the car. I can thrash it hard all day at the track, and still ride home in comfort.
Weaknesses? Well, like you would expect, gettting caught off boost can be a problem. I'm used to the TR8, which while not nearly as fast overall as the Esprit (perhaps 170 crank hp, but probably around 200 ft-lbs of torque in a 2400 race car), which has LOTS of V8 torque. So it took a while to find the right gear to be in in the right places, and some of it was uncomfortable, meaning I was in a higher gear than I wanted to be heading into the corner, with the engine spoiled up, just so I would have power coming out.
The brakes SUCK. They are horrible. Little feel. Pedal is sloppy (and yes I've bled and used a high temp fluid, will definitely go to stainless lines as well). Stopping power is average. I routinely had to get on the brakes 50-100 feet before the "Best" brakers out there -- a 325i race car and the Z06s.
And, took my tires off at the end of Saturday to look at the "new" EBCs -- the green is burned off and I have 1/2 of the pad left. Cripes.
Will track again in July, but am thinking about a brake upgrade before then.
In any event, there you have it. Car ran great, very very fun car and many complimetns. Best one was a guy who said, "nice to see a car like this at the track, most just tuck them away in teh garage."
So, if you are inclined at all, get out to the DE events with your car. They are as safe as you want them to be - no one is going to pressure you to go fast. And trust me, this car REALLY comes alive being thrown from corner to corner, with that turbine whirring behind your ear. Very cool -- I'm reminded of the German pilot who upon flying the Me262 for the first time said it "felt like angels were pushing." Kind of the same here, after the M Coupe and a V8 race car.
And, the best part is it eats 911s for lunch......
Jeff
Car: 1993.5 stock SE, only upgrades were EBC greens (they SUCK they SUCK), Motul in the MC, and "R" compound RA-1 Toyos.
Me: About 6 track weekends in a BMW M Coupe (great car, GREAT brakes), then a season and a half of wheel to wheel racing in a ITS TR8.
First off, amazing what you can get into this car if you have to. I got a 10X10 easy up, a jack, two jack stands, fluids, clothes for the weekend, a brake bleeder and some light tools. Not bad at all.
Drove to track. Got ticket in Shitville, SC. Price of ownership I suppose.
Porsche Club events (at least in this region) are a pretty good show. Not as uptight as the BMW schools, but still serious enough about safety, etc. that I felt comfortable out there with a street car.
And MAN, do the Porsches come out. There were those Cup cars (full on fire belching racers), 911 Turbos, "normal" 911s of all types, many modded 944s, pretty neat stuff.
I was there with a buddy in a Viper GTS Coupe. Very cool car, man does it rumble.
Saturday was cool, and wet in the morning. I was sent out solo, and (a) didn't know the track and (b) didn't know the car, so I was a bit apprehensive. Plus, the track was damp. So I took it easy, but within a few laps had the line down except in a few places. Mind you, lots to learn about really going fast, but CMP is a straightforward track and the line "makes sense" if that makes sense.
The Esprit is a near-fantastic track car. Gobs of power on the straights. No normally aspirated 911 (includinga new GT3) could run with it. No 944 or 944 Turboe could run with it. No Boxster or Boxters S could run with it.
Well balanced car in the corners. Turn in is great, classic "you turn NOW" mid-engined feel. It doesn't (or mine doesn't any way) push like I had read SEs do. I never had a situation where the nose plowed. If I carried too much speed in or turned in too sharply, back end would squiggle a bit, and I'd have to let the car drift a bit wide to get it back.
NEVER really let me get in trouble in mid-corner. VERY balanced under throttle. Point the nose, smoothly apply power and away you go. A couple of wiggles under power, but nothing major. In my view, the tire/wheel/shock/spring combo on the car is pretty good. There is LOTS of body roll, but I'm not sure with the four wheel wishbone/independent suspension that it matters all that much in a driver's education type event. All four wheels stay planted. It's not like a Mustang (or a TR8) with a live rear axle, where you run ridiculous spring rates to keep the car flat.
Not sure though. I may play some with the suspension, although riding home, I am reminded how good of a compromise job Lotus did with the car. I can thrash it hard all day at the track, and still ride home in comfort.
Weaknesses? Well, like you would expect, gettting caught off boost can be a problem. I'm used to the TR8, which while not nearly as fast overall as the Esprit (perhaps 170 crank hp, but probably around 200 ft-lbs of torque in a 2400 race car), which has LOTS of V8 torque. So it took a while to find the right gear to be in in the right places, and some of it was uncomfortable, meaning I was in a higher gear than I wanted to be heading into the corner, with the engine spoiled up, just so I would have power coming out.
The brakes SUCK. They are horrible. Little feel. Pedal is sloppy (and yes I've bled and used a high temp fluid, will definitely go to stainless lines as well). Stopping power is average. I routinely had to get on the brakes 50-100 feet before the "Best" brakers out there -- a 325i race car and the Z06s.
And, took my tires off at the end of Saturday to look at the "new" EBCs -- the green is burned off and I have 1/2 of the pad left. Cripes.
Will track again in July, but am thinking about a brake upgrade before then.
In any event, there you have it. Car ran great, very very fun car and many complimetns. Best one was a guy who said, "nice to see a car like this at the track, most just tuck them away in teh garage."
So, if you are inclined at all, get out to the DE events with your car. They are as safe as you want them to be - no one is going to pressure you to go fast. And trust me, this car REALLY comes alive being thrown from corner to corner, with that turbine whirring behind your ear. Very cool -- I'm reminded of the German pilot who upon flying the Me262 for the first time said it "felt like angels were pushing." Kind of the same here, after the M Coupe and a V8 race car.
And, the best part is it eats 911s for lunch......
Jeff
Jeff, wicked sounded really ace, track days are just soooo cool arent they?! Very addictive but I got to say its the only place where you can take her to find out whats its capable of, without getting a fine. 
How did you find the RA-1's?? What psi were you running them at? I found the tires to be really amazing, you could throw the car through tight chicaines, hair pins and it just sticks in there which I found you could really push much harder as opposed to spinning out on regular performance tyres. Little things too I noticed was that you could brake later knowing that your tires will help pull you in better with out skidding. My lap times really dropped by heaps by just changing to stickys.
I have been running 27psi cold which means when burning hot they are 2-3deg c hotter in the centre of the tyre they really should be level depending on the conditions of course. Some people run them with 2-3psi lower pressures which sounds prob about right for best performance, weight of car depending.
You were saying about body roll. Mine has it bad too even after new shocks put in. I have replaced my old tires with these Toyos which have a slightly taller profile in the tyre, hence making the ride softer and more roll. But I like the more classic look better.
With your pads I also ran the green stuff and was not impressed for the money spent
I just uprated my pad to some Mintex ones which have a very meaty metal/resin compound, they rock! So before you go all out and do a complete brake upgrade, just try a better pad and uprate your fluids to a higher boiling point. I have heard the red stuff being a bit better if you want to stick with EBC's.
Any track day pics?
>> Edited by kylie on Monday 3rd May 05:54
How did you find the RA-1's?? What psi were you running them at? I found the tires to be really amazing, you could throw the car through tight chicaines, hair pins and it just sticks in there which I found you could really push much harder as opposed to spinning out on regular performance tyres. Little things too I noticed was that you could brake later knowing that your tires will help pull you in better with out skidding. My lap times really dropped by heaps by just changing to stickys.
I have been running 27psi cold which means when burning hot they are 2-3deg c hotter in the centre of the tyre they really should be level depending on the conditions of course. Some people run them with 2-3psi lower pressures which sounds prob about right for best performance, weight of car depending.
You were saying about body roll. Mine has it bad too even after new shocks put in. I have replaced my old tires with these Toyos which have a slightly taller profile in the tyre, hence making the ride softer and more roll. But I like the more classic look better.
With your pads I also ran the green stuff and was not impressed for the money spent
I just uprated my pad to some Mintex ones which have a very meaty metal/resin compound, they rock! So before you go all out and do a complete brake upgrade, just try a better pad and uprate your fluids to a higher boiling point. I have heard the red stuff being a bit better if you want to stick with EBC's. Any track day pics?
>> Edited by kylie on Monday 3rd May 05:54
Kylie, I really like the RA-1s. For a vareity of reasons. I use them (shaved) on my race car, and for a "learning" race tire they are very good. Consistent and long lasting.
On the Esprit, I'm actually using them unshaved as a street/track tire. This is the "R" compound version with the 40 treadwear -- is that what you are using?
I've been pleased with them on teh street. I have even driven (slowly) through a torrential downpour and had no real problems. I imagine once they are worn some they will be a handful, but for now, they are fine for the street.
And for the track, far better than the Michelin Pilot Sports I had on my BMW. Very grippy. Very slidable.
I do run much higher pressures than you based on my race car experience. Toyo recommends that you end up about 36 psi hot, so I ran 32 all around on the Esprit and no complaints. Tires did not get toot hot and greasy and I pushed the car/slid it some.
On the EBCs, they have to GO. God they are horrid. I may try a better compound (we actually have a wonderful company a few hours away called Carbotech, google them sometime, that will make you a pad from a tracing of an old one). But, in looking at the pads/rotors, I'm doubtful that the brakes are up to the capability of the car. We'll see.
By the way, good point about good tires improving braking capability. If the tires don't grip, you slid, and that means you don't stop.
There was a photographer at the track taking pictures. He is to e-mail me shots of the car this week. I'll post them when I get them.
Jeff
On the Esprit, I'm actually using them unshaved as a street/track tire. This is the "R" compound version with the 40 treadwear -- is that what you are using?
I've been pleased with them on teh street. I have even driven (slowly) through a torrential downpour and had no real problems. I imagine once they are worn some they will be a handful, but for now, they are fine for the street.
And for the track, far better than the Michelin Pilot Sports I had on my BMW. Very grippy. Very slidable.
I do run much higher pressures than you based on my race car experience. Toyo recommends that you end up about 36 psi hot, so I ran 32 all around on the Esprit and no complaints. Tires did not get toot hot and greasy and I pushed the car/slid it some.
On the EBCs, they have to GO. God they are horrid. I may try a better compound (we actually have a wonderful company a few hours away called Carbotech, google them sometime, that will make you a pad from a tracing of an old one). But, in looking at the pads/rotors, I'm doubtful that the brakes are up to the capability of the car. We'll see.
By the way, good point about good tires improving braking capability. If the tires don't grip, you slid, and that means you don't stop.
There was a photographer at the track taking pictures. He is to e-mail me shots of the car this week. I'll post them when I get them.
Jeff
Hey Jeff,
How did you Like CMP? Personally I hate the layout of the track, but when you are on a track who cares right?? haha It is just fun to drive eve if the trakc sucks. I do like the facilities just not the layout.
Next time you go let me know....I'm up in Asheville, still looking for a V8 esprit.
L8tr
Jeremy
How did you Like CMP? Personally I hate the layout of the track, but when you are on a track who cares right?? haha It is just fun to drive eve if the trakc sucks. I do like the facilities just not the layout.
Next time you go let me know....I'm up in Asheville, still looking for a V8 esprit.
L8tr
Jeremy
I actually liked half of CMP. From the pit straight through the end of the back straight. Pretty neat, high speed corners. The carousel is difficult to get right, and the right hander onto the backstraight is fast and cool.
That autocross slow section blows though.
But, for a track day for a street car, it's pretty much perfect. Not many places you can really get into trouble.
Get thee an Esprit and get thee to the track!....lol.
That autocross slow section blows though.
But, for a track day for a street car, it's pretty much perfect. Not many places you can really get into trouble.
Get thee an Esprit and get thee to the track!....lol.
No, he was new to track events and ran with the novice group. He was quick though.
I can tell you this: an unmodded Esprit SE is no match for a well driven Corvette Z06, and a Viper GTS ought to be faster (well driver) than a Z06.
So my guess is that the GTS would be a fair amount quicker. Note that those cars stop and turn a lot better than people think. In fact, they STOP much, much better than our cars.
I can tell you this: an unmodded Esprit SE is no match for a well driven Corvette Z06, and a Viper GTS ought to be faster (well driver) than a Z06.
So my guess is that the GTS would be a fair amount quicker. Note that those cars stop and turn a lot better than people think. In fact, they STOP much, much better than our cars.
Yeah The slow portion of CMP does blow, but the Carousel is fun once you learn stay out stay out stay out stay out stay out.......now repeat after me hahaha
Have you ever done a track day at Roebling or ATL? Never been to Roebling...but Road ATL is awesome! Too much concrete though if you screw up your car will be hurting.
L8tr
Jeremy
PS I will track whatever I get....Esprit V8 or Viper GTS (they are about the same price) Which would you buy?
Have you ever done a track day at Roebling or ATL? Never been to Roebling...but Road ATL is awesome! Too much concrete though if you screw up your car will be hurting.
L8tr
Jeremy
PS I will track whatever I get....Esprit V8 or Viper GTS (they are about the same price) Which would you buy?
JeffYoung said:
On the Esprit, I'm actually using them unshaved as a street/track tire. This is the "R" compound version with the 40 treadwear -- is that what you are using?
Yes I am using the same, for street use as well. Lots of rain you have to be careful and slow down as I found the car skidding and floating all over the place, but do able. I dont go out in the rain anyway, only if I have been caught out in it.
What do you mean by shaved tires? like you cut the tread down yourself or natural wear and tear?
JeffYoung said:
No, he was new to track events and ran with the novice group. He was quick though.
I can tell you this: an unmodded Esprit SE is no match for a well driven Corvette Z06, and a Viper GTS ought to be faster (well driver) than a Z06.
So my guess is that the GTS would be a fair amount quicker. Note that those cars stop and turn a lot better than people think. In fact, they STOP much, much better than our cars.
So then whats the point of a Lotus if a Viper that weighs tons more is quicker around a track and has tons more power?
What I mean to say is, the Lotus is heralded as one of the best handling cars around, but if a Viper can perform it as good or better, wheres the class?
Kylie:
A couple of answers:
a. Yes, you shave the tread down to 4/32nds (inches, not sure what that is metric). A tire dealer, a good one, will do this for you. If they botch it, the tread can be uneven with lots of vibration. I've seen bad shaving jobs. Tire rack will ship shaved, as will Vilven Tire and Phil's Tire Service in the US.
You do get much better grip.
b. Will try better pads before I do something drastic.
c. For body roll, new dampers isn't going to help a whole lot. They basically control rebound, which means that they will control side to side swaying of the car on the springs. Stiff springs will cut down on roll, but give a hard ride on teh street. Not sure that the stock setup is perfect, but it is a good track/street compromise.
d. Followed your link on your name to your website -- VERY COOL. My car is black as well, not as clean as yours though...lol. I really like the wheels on your car. Not a chrome guy myself, but it really works well on yours.
If I get to NZ, you owe me a ride....
Jeff
A couple of answers:
a. Yes, you shave the tread down to 4/32nds (inches, not sure what that is metric). A tire dealer, a good one, will do this for you. If they botch it, the tread can be uneven with lots of vibration. I've seen bad shaving jobs. Tire rack will ship shaved, as will Vilven Tire and Phil's Tire Service in the US.
You do get much better grip.
b. Will try better pads before I do something drastic.
c. For body roll, new dampers isn't going to help a whole lot. They basically control rebound, which means that they will control side to side swaying of the car on the springs. Stiff springs will cut down on roll, but give a hard ride on teh street. Not sure that the stock setup is perfect, but it is a good track/street compromise.
d. Followed your link on your name to your website -- VERY COOL. My car is black as well, not as clean as yours though...lol. I really like the wheels on your car. Not a chrome guy myself, but it really works well on yours.
If I get to NZ, you owe me a ride....
Jeff
Lotus ACBC:
You said this:
So then whats the point of a Lotus if a Viper that weighs tons more is quicker around a track and has tons more power?
What I mean to say is, the Lotus is heralded as one of the best handling cars around, but if a Viper can perform it as good or better, wheres the class?
******************************
Speed, or lap times, or handling do not "make" a car. I truly HATE magazines/critics/people who evualate cars solely by numbers. A car is much more than the performance numbers assigned to it. It is look, feel, behavior at the limit, etc.
A Viper and a Lotus are very, very, very different cars. A Ferrari and a Lotus are very, very, very different cars.
The Viper is a brute. It's not as heavy or archaic as people think, and it stops and goes quite well. But it is not a precision instrument.
The Lotus IS a precision instrument. It's a knife fighter. Turn in on the Lotus is SO different from the Viper it is impossible to describe -- the real key difference between a heavy front engine car and a lighter mid-engined one.
When I was younger, I read car rags regularly and fell into the trap of thinking that if I knew what a car's zero to sixty and skidpad numbers were, I knew what that car was about.
So wrong. Examples: ever drive a Fiat X1/9? It takes about 12 seconds to get to sixty. Tops out around 100. But it is aboslutely one of the most fun cars I've ever driven, grin on my face every time I drove it.
Ever drive a Buick Regal GN? Big black turbo brute from the mid to late 80s. Brakes, horrible. Handling, pitiful. But attitude and straight line acceleration? Fantastic.
Miata? A chick car right? Cute and peppy, but not fast right? Miatas are quite possibly the most balanced, most fun little cars around right now. GREAT race cars -- watch a swarm of Spec Miatas race inches apart for 15 laps on a road course. Fun stuff.
Here's my advice. Drive a Viper. Drive a Lotus. Buy the one that moves you the most, not the one the magazine numbers say is "better." Me, I like Vipers, but have no desire to own one. I don't particularly like the styling and I don't particularly care for brutish power plants.
Viper guys on the toher hand probably don't care for high strung wind up turbo plasti-cars either. And I understand that.
Jeff
You said this:
So then whats the point of a Lotus if a Viper that weighs tons more is quicker around a track and has tons more power?
What I mean to say is, the Lotus is heralded as one of the best handling cars around, but if a Viper can perform it as good or better, wheres the class?
******************************
Speed, or lap times, or handling do not "make" a car. I truly HATE magazines/critics/people who evualate cars solely by numbers. A car is much more than the performance numbers assigned to it. It is look, feel, behavior at the limit, etc.
A Viper and a Lotus are very, very, very different cars. A Ferrari and a Lotus are very, very, very different cars.
The Viper is a brute. It's not as heavy or archaic as people think, and it stops and goes quite well. But it is not a precision instrument.
The Lotus IS a precision instrument. It's a knife fighter. Turn in on the Lotus is SO different from the Viper it is impossible to describe -- the real key difference between a heavy front engine car and a lighter mid-engined one.
When I was younger, I read car rags regularly and fell into the trap of thinking that if I knew what a car's zero to sixty and skidpad numbers were, I knew what that car was about.
So wrong. Examples: ever drive a Fiat X1/9? It takes about 12 seconds to get to sixty. Tops out around 100. But it is aboslutely one of the most fun cars I've ever driven, grin on my face every time I drove it.
Ever drive a Buick Regal GN? Big black turbo brute from the mid to late 80s. Brakes, horrible. Handling, pitiful. But attitude and straight line acceleration? Fantastic.
Miata? A chick car right? Cute and peppy, but not fast right? Miatas are quite possibly the most balanced, most fun little cars around right now. GREAT race cars -- watch a swarm of Spec Miatas race inches apart for 15 laps on a road course. Fun stuff.
Here's my advice. Drive a Viper. Drive a Lotus. Buy the one that moves you the most, not the one the magazine numbers say is "better." Me, I like Vipers, but have no desire to own one. I don't particularly like the styling and I don't particularly care for brutish power plants.
Viper guys on the toher hand probably don't care for high strung wind up turbo plasti-cars either. And I understand that.
Jeff
Everyone likes their own thing, Jeff is correct. If I just looked at performance numbers etc. I'd own a Z06 Vette I suppose, it is cheap (relatively), turns great numbers, and that is just stock, and is a no-brainer to maintain and drive.
But, it is a Corvette and they appear on every street in America.
A car is much more than it's performance numbers and more than a sum of it's parts, that is for sure.
But, it is a Corvette and they appear on every street in America.
A car is much more than it's performance numbers and more than a sum of it's parts, that is for sure.
Im not one for numbers much either, I dont base a car in its 1/4 mile performance and what not when it comes to exotics, but I would just expect the Esprit to be a better track car by a good portion when compared with a Viper.
But then again, I have never driven anything close to either car and wont for a while. But when I do, I am sure I will understand right away what you mean.
But then again, I have never driven anything close to either car and wont for a while. But when I do, I am sure I will understand right away what you mean.
JeffYoung said:
d. Followed your link on your name to your website -- VERY COOL. My car is black as well, not as clean as yours though...lol. I really like the wheels on your car. Not a chrome guy myself, but it really works well on yours.
If I get to NZ, you owe me a ride....
Jeff
Cheers for the kind comments the wheels are a aftermarket 3-peice revolution racing wheels of that used on the X180R race type cars, my centres are repainted silver, they were originally black. All we did was take the clear coat off the alloy and deep polished them, took for ever but worth it. They are light as.
You are most welcome to come for a hoon in the Esprit any time our place is always open home to esprit peps.
"weirdos out there need not apply" 
Hmmmmm....Lotus.....think about what you just said:
"I'd expect the Lotus to be a better track car by a good portion."
Here's the key: what do you mean by better?
Do you mean an overall objective faster lap time? If so, yes, with 450 or whatever horsepower, huge tires and big brakes, the Viper is going to run faster laps and be "better."
But do you mean more fun or satisfying? In my view, and Viper guys would of course disagree, working the gearbox to stay on boost, turning in at insane entry speeds, and powering out on boost is more fun than thundering down the straight with a V10.
It's all about personal preferences.
Ron's point is probably the best one as far as street driving goes. For dollars per performance, the Z06 can't be beat. But do you really WANT a Corvette? No, I see them everyday.
Jeff
"I'd expect the Lotus to be a better track car by a good portion."
Here's the key: what do you mean by better?
Do you mean an overall objective faster lap time? If so, yes, with 450 or whatever horsepower, huge tires and big brakes, the Viper is going to run faster laps and be "better."
But do you mean more fun or satisfying? In my view, and Viper guys would of course disagree, working the gearbox to stay on boost, turning in at insane entry speeds, and powering out on boost is more fun than thundering down the straight with a V10.
It's all about personal preferences.
Ron's point is probably the best one as far as street driving goes. For dollars per performance, the Z06 can't be beat. But do you really WANT a Corvette? No, I see them everyday.
Jeff
JeffYoung said:
Hmmmmm....Lotus.....think about what you just said:
"I'd expect the Lotus to be a better track car by a good portion."
Here's the key: what do you mean by better?
Do you mean an overall objective faster lap time? If so, yes, with 450 or whatever horsepower, huge tires and big brakes, the Viper is going to run faster laps and be "better."
But do you mean more fun or satisfying? In my view, and Viper guys would of course disagree, working the gearbox to stay on boost, turning in at insane entry speeds, and powering out on boost is more fun than thundering down the straight with a V10.
It's all about personal preferences.
Ron's point is probably the best one as far as street driving goes. For dollars per performance, the Z06 can't be beat. But do you really WANT a Corvette? No, I see them everyday.
Jeff
I guess you are right. Each car has their advantages and disadvantages. It seems the Esprit takes much more skill to drive it correctly.
Z06's are cool cars, they look great in yellow, but man I see just about as many Corvettes as I see toyotas. I actually see more vettes and porsches than I do V8 Mustangs nowadays. I remember back in the day (a few years ago LOL) when I had my 5.0's, Mustangs were everywhere, now I rarely see a 5.0, and ever rarer in good condition.
There you go -- each car does have its pluses and minuses. I hope to sample many cars in my life, as it is the pluses and minuses that make them interesting. I'd love to own:
a. Ferrari 512BBi for the 12 cylinder Ferrari experience.
b. A Maserati Ghibli because it is a poor man's Daytona and the price is reasonable.
c. A Lamborghini Miura because in my eyes it is quite possibly the most beautiful car ever made.
d. A Lancia Stratos because it is just a wicked take on a "supercar."
e. A 1970 Dodge Charger with a hemi or a 440 six pack, to sample big brutish muscel car horsepower.
f. A huge, lifted Jeep Grand Wagoneer for off-road fun.
g. A Lotus Elise because it is so light and the perfect track toy.
h. A Triumph GT6 because it is neat little car with a cool 2.0 straight six.
i. A Lancia Scorpion because it is the "ultimate" X1/9 (another favorite of mine).
j. A modded Dodge Omni GLH Turbo (about $1,000 in parts can mkae this car run low 13s in the quarter), to shock the shit out of people.
k. A Sunbeam Tiger because British V8 roadsters make great street cruising cars.
l. An old Formula 1 car for the track.
m. An old Nascar stocker for the track.
And the list goes on.....
5.0s were a great performance buy when I was growing up, and you see a lot of modded ones at the track. They are pretty cool, and can be made to go fast. Kind of the quintessential American car -- V8, torquey, decent hp, package puts up better numbers than you would expect from the "parts" (live rear axle, push rod V8 -- ask Ron about those, etc.).
a. Ferrari 512BBi for the 12 cylinder Ferrari experience.
b. A Maserati Ghibli because it is a poor man's Daytona and the price is reasonable.
c. A Lamborghini Miura because in my eyes it is quite possibly the most beautiful car ever made.
d. A Lancia Stratos because it is just a wicked take on a "supercar."
e. A 1970 Dodge Charger with a hemi or a 440 six pack, to sample big brutish muscel car horsepower.
f. A huge, lifted Jeep Grand Wagoneer for off-road fun.
g. A Lotus Elise because it is so light and the perfect track toy.
h. A Triumph GT6 because it is neat little car with a cool 2.0 straight six.
i. A Lancia Scorpion because it is the "ultimate" X1/9 (another favorite of mine).
j. A modded Dodge Omni GLH Turbo (about $1,000 in parts can mkae this car run low 13s in the quarter), to shock the shit out of people.
k. A Sunbeam Tiger because British V8 roadsters make great street cruising cars.
l. An old Formula 1 car for the track.
m. An old Nascar stocker for the track.
And the list goes on.....
5.0s were a great performance buy when I was growing up, and you see a lot of modded ones at the track. They are pretty cool, and can be made to go fast. Kind of the quintessential American car -- V8, torquey, decent hp, package puts up better numbers than you would expect from the "parts" (live rear axle, push rod V8 -- ask Ron about those, etc.).
Jeff - Long list of cars, but I cant blame you. I too would love to sample many fine cars as well. I wont list them as I would get out of hand LOL But, I have to agree with you on the Lambo Mirua (sp?). That is one beautiful car and I see one often at a local exotic garage near me. That and a Ferrari Dino #?.
I want to own an Elise as well one day, and if I like it enough an Exige and 340R.
But with that said, if I only get to own just one, I would be veyr happy. And obviously the Esprit is the one I lust for.
A Ferrari 348 would be nice too, or the 355 of course as well. Owning them and driving them though are two different things to me. I wouldnt mind driving plenty of cars, but like I said, I just want to own one, and thats the Esprit at the moment.
Viper is another car I wouldnt mind owning if the Esprit doesnt satisfy me when I eventually own one.
I wish TVR's were legal in the states, as I would love to own a few of their top models.
See, I said I wouldnt list any, and there I go and listed a few LOL
I had three mustang 5.0s since I was 17 years old. I love them! They really are great cars, especially for a yound guy. But I am grown out of them now. Someday down the line I will get another one, but I figure why not go for the ultimate dream I always had, the Lotus Esprit. Its only a matter of time.
I want to own an Elise as well one day, and if I like it enough an Exige and 340R.
But with that said, if I only get to own just one, I would be veyr happy. And obviously the Esprit is the one I lust for.
A Ferrari 348 would be nice too, or the 355 of course as well. Owning them and driving them though are two different things to me. I wouldnt mind driving plenty of cars, but like I said, I just want to own one, and thats the Esprit at the moment.
Viper is another car I wouldnt mind owning if the Esprit doesnt satisfy me when I eventually own one.
I wish TVR's were legal in the states, as I would love to own a few of their top models.
See, I said I wouldnt list any, and there I go and listed a few LOL
I had three mustang 5.0s since I was 17 years old. I love them! They really are great cars, especially for a yound guy. But I am grown out of them now. Someday down the line I will get another one, but I figure why not go for the ultimate dream I always had, the Lotus Esprit. Its only a matter of time.
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