Esprit 1988 (non-turbo): CRUNCH SOUND
Discussion
Probably the hydraulic clutch line needs bleeding (air bubbles in line) or you have orignal red line from the clutch master to slave unit on the transmission that will not allow full clutch release. Most of us have replaced the origanl red line with a braided stainless steel reinforced line that helpd prevents line expansion. I suppose you could have a leaking system. Either case you end up bleeding the line so that will take care of that problem unless of course the clutch is on its way out or clutch lever is misadjusted. Sometimes the clutch fork maybe be bent but go for the easy to do common problem first. So do the bleed of the system before you do anything else.
Edited by cnh1990 on Sunday 2nd December 15:09
Cheers for that!
When I select reverse in particular, it feels like you are putting one piece of metal onto something that is spinning and as you put the car into that gear it crunches.
Do you think it's OK to drive it like this for a couple of weeks before I get a chance to bleed the system etc. or am I damaging something every time I select first/reverse?
Thanks again for this.
Rich
When I select reverse in particular, it feels like you are putting one piece of metal onto something that is spinning and as you put the car into that gear it crunches.
Do you think it's OK to drive it like this for a couple of weeks before I get a chance to bleed the system etc. or am I damaging something every time I select first/reverse?
Thanks again for this.
Rich
It sound like the clutch is not releasing. It seems upon heat up the problems gets worse. Assuming that the clutch itself is not bad, air bubbles in the lines would cause such symptoms and are fairly common in Esprit's and would get worse as engine temps climb. Is this Esprit your only form of transportation? If you have another car don't drive the Esprit. I suppose you could drive it for a short period of time if you had a real good reason, but I would not do it. All it takes to bleed the clutch system is a person on the pedal and the other at the slave cyl with a wrench. 5-10 min job with two people and it is easy enough that my wife can help do this although I am the one that goes under the car.
Do you have the red hose still on the car between the clutch master and slave cyl?
Do you know how to check the plunger travel/clearences properly at the clutch lever and slave cyl?
I suppose the master seals could be failing and sucking in air into the master. Do you notice loss of fluid in the clutch master resivoir? Or are there any evidence of leaking in footwell near the pedal box or right under the clutch master under the front bonnet?
Do you have the red hose still on the car between the clutch master and slave cyl?
Do you know how to check the plunger travel/clearences properly at the clutch lever and slave cyl?
I suppose the master seals could be failing and sucking in air into the master. Do you notice loss of fluid in the clutch master resivoir? Or are there any evidence of leaking in footwell near the pedal box or right under the clutch master under the front bonnet?
Edited by cnh1990 on Monday 3rd December 16:36
Thanks loads for that. I only use the Esprit at weekends really, but have a trip to Oxford and back planned for 15th December.
I'm going to try my best to bleed the clutch system this weekend, but to be honest with you I really am clueless when it comes to cars!
It still has the original red hose I think. Not sure how to check the plunger travel/clearences properly at the clutch lever and slave cyl.
Thanks again.
I'm going to try my best to bleed the clutch system this weekend, but to be honest with you I really am clueless when it comes to cars!
It still has the original red hose I think. Not sure how to check the plunger travel/clearences properly at the clutch lever and slave cyl.
Thanks again.
Easy to tell if you have the red hose. Take a look under the front bonnet, if you have the red hose you will see it attached to the clutch master under the fill resevoir. This hose should be replaced with the braided stainless steel line. You should check the fluid level as low levels will allow air to be sucked into the system. Since it does not really use fluid if you have low levels this usually means the system is leaking somewhere. The red hose is made of plastic and it has been many peoples opinion that this plastic softens and expands under engine heat and pedal pressure so that it reduces slave plunger movement resulting in resticted movement of the clutch lever. For bleeding all it takes is a wrench on the slave bleeder while another person pumps the pedal 3 or 4 times and holds the pedal about 1/2 way down. The person under the car will slowly open the bleeder and a small amount fluid will seep out along with the air bubbles. During the bleed the person holding the pedal will experience the pedal dropping towards the floor. It is important that the bleeder valve be closed before the pedal hits bottom or before the person releases the pedal. If the pedal moves up while the bleeder is open it will suck air back into the system. Repeat this process about 4 or 5 times times while keeping the master topped up with fluid. Also it is in the opinion of many that only Castrol LMA fluid be used for the system as other fluids made by others have been suspected to degrade the seals in the master and slave. 1/2 a pint or less will be used in this bleed process unless you want to drain and replace the entire contents of the system which should be done every once in while and which you will have to do if you are replacing the red hose.
Anyone around to give this person a hand this weekend?
His profile says he is in London.
Good Luck,
Calvin
Anyone around to give this person a hand this weekend?
His profile says he is in London.
Good Luck,
Calvin
Edited by cnh1990 on Monday 3rd December 19:32
Hi Rich, something else to consisder, has the gear stick got an aftermarket type of gear knob on it, like a smaller alloy one? I only say this as sometimes the reverse collar can come up too high and sometimes when you naturally twist the shifter to select the lower fork of the selection end can come over to the reverse side. This also makes it hard to select as you have said and the shift will feel sloppier than usual. Its a quick fix by twisting it around again till the fork drops back down where it should be and you will notice straight away.. But if you dont know what your looking for lift out its coverings which is easy to get to and have a look. Pays to check these parts for wear too.
Hope you sort it all soon and let us know how you get on
Hope you sort it all soon and let us know how you get on
Thank you all for this!
I just took the Esprit for a night-time drive around central London, and it only crunched once (in reverse when I was parking it). I reckon it must be linked to the red hose, as it's fine until the car's been running for a few minutes.
I think I need to give it a little bit of time between gears. When parking, is it best to select neutral and then take my foot off the clutch in neutral before selecting reverse to park do you think?
BTW I was following a DB9 at one stage, but people were much more interested in having a look at the Esprit. Says a lot about the cars in central London, people are bored with Carreras and DB9s, but there really are no Lotuses around (well, other than Elises)!
I just took the Esprit for a night-time drive around central London, and it only crunched once (in reverse when I was parking it). I reckon it must be linked to the red hose, as it's fine until the car's been running for a few minutes.
I think I need to give it a little bit of time between gears. When parking, is it best to select neutral and then take my foot off the clutch in neutral before selecting reverse to park do you think?
BTW I was following a DB9 at one stage, but people were much more interested in having a look at the Esprit. Says a lot about the cars in central London, people are bored with Carreras and DB9s, but there really are no Lotuses around (well, other than Elises)!
A lot of times if the Esprit will not go into reverse smoothly many of us will put it into 1st then into reverse. Of course this would not make sense if you are crunching in 1st also. Not sure if giving it a momentary rest in neutral will help as if there is air in the system the air pocket will compress immediately. I had the original red hose and I had similar problems. I'm not sure if it was the red hose itself or just air in the system as when I replaced the hose I had to bleed the system anyway. In any case the hose itself was inexpensive and everyone who changed it experienced better results. So if you have the red hose go ahead and change it.
I was really hoping that someone living nearby you would stop by and lend a hand.
I was really hoping that someone living nearby you would stop by and lend a hand.
Edited by cnh1990 on Tuesday 4th December 05:11
People will tell you that you do not have to do this... but since my Austin Healey days I found that if you press the clutch, select 3rd, and then (clutch still held) Reverse that Reverse will more easily engage.
As for 2nd, take your time shifting. They are known to have weak syncros on the 1-2 change and "speed shifting" like the youger folks like to do is not a good thing in the Esprit.
Cameron
As for 2nd, take your time shifting. They are known to have weak syncros on the 1-2 change and "speed shifting" like the youger folks like to do is not a good thing in the Esprit.
Cameron
Thank you all for this!
I have completely changed my driving style (I don't think I was giving the esprit enough time between gears the first couple of days I owned it) and now there's no crunching for the first 30 minutes of town stop-start driving. It looks like it's a classic case of red hose syndrome, so i'll definitley be getting a braided line over the next few weeks to replace the red one.
Thanks again!
Rich
I have completely changed my driving style (I don't think I was giving the esprit enough time between gears the first couple of days I owned it) and now there's no crunching for the first 30 minutes of town stop-start driving. It looks like it's a classic case of red hose syndrome, so i'll definitley be getting a braided line over the next few weeks to replace the red one.
Thanks again!
Rich
I'm jumping into this thread late... sorry if I've already missed the boat.
First, the Esprit requires a full stroke of the clutch pedal to produce a clean shift. Anything that effectively short-strokes it can produce a crunch going into gear. That includes not putting the pedal to the floor, air in the hydraulics, a leaky master or slave cylinder, a small-bore master cylinder retrofitted into a car set-up for a big-bore master-cyl, or an incorrectly adjusted threaded adaptor at the end of the clutch release lever.
"Red Hose Syndrome" has become the default easy answer whenever the gearbox begins to grind or shift with difficulty. It deserves some of the blame, but it's not the universal answer. Don't be blind to other possibilites. Especially since some of the maintenance and adjustment items are almost free if you do your own work, and the steel braided Aeroquip clutch hose is expensive. In my opinion, it's worthwhile-expensive, but not everyone wishes to throw cubic-money at solving problems. Don't skip the little stuff.
Bleed the hydraulics. Doing it right is easier said than done. The best way is with a pressure bleeder that can maintain a constant flow while bleeding. Pumping the pedal moves the fluid in a series of jerks, and that's not as effective at carrying entrained bubbles out of the system.
Inspect the fluid in the reservoir. It should be clear. If it's dark, or if you see a black layer near the bottom, that's residue from degrading seals and it's time to re-build or replace the master cylinder.
Inspect both master and slave cylinders for fluid leaks in the the area where the pushrod exits. A leak means re-build or replace. Inspecting the master for leaks requires assuming the Lotus Position in the footwell.
Two different master cylinders were used at different times. The first was a large, .70" bore. Owners complained about the heavy clutch pedal, so Lotus switched to a .5/8" (.625"
small bore. Then owners complained about the long pedal travel. So it became fairly common for previous owners to have swapped bore sizes to suit their own tastes
.7 = heavy pedal but the pedal doesn't have to touch the carpet for a clean shift. 5/8 = lighter pedal, but it requires a full stroke and the pedal must go to the floor.
There should be a mark cast into the right side of the reservoir indicating 5/8 (.625" bore), or 70 (.700" bore).
Regardless of bore size, it's best to put the clutch pedal all the way down when shifting gears.
There are separate clutch pedal set-up procedures for the 5/8" and .7" master cylinders. See Section Q in the manual and make sure the pedal is set up for the cylinder that is installed.
Make sure the master cylinder push rod has free-play when the clutch pedal is released. That's part of the pedal set-up procedure, but important and worthy of redundant mention.
The adjuster at the outer end of the clutch release lever should be adjusted by the book. Too much exposed thread results in the clutch not releasing cleanly which leads to difficult shifting and grinding going into gears. Too little exposed thread can lead to less than full clutch engagement and possible slip. There's a sweet spot defined by the manual, so make sure it's right. The amount of thread exposed beyond the jam nut should be:
9-12.5mm = Esprit Turbo, Renault (outboard rear brakes)
22.0 mm = Esprit Turbo, Citroen (side-mounted slave cyl)
When something isn't right, reverse will be the first to grind since it's not synchronized in the '88 cars. You're just sliding an idler gear on a shaft to simultaneously engage two other gears... one on the primary shaft and one on the secondary. There's potential for making noise when the teeth engage.
First gear is the next most likely to grind since it has the largest gear ratio and hence, the greatest speed differential for the synchros to deal with. It's also the most frequently used gear, so the synchros are the first to wear out.
Shifting into another close gear first will help get into a reluctant gear... 2nd before going into 1st. 1st (or 2nd) before going into reverse.
When everything mechanical is right, then have a little mechanical empathy in your own technique. Don't just jamb it into gear. The synchro needs a little time to do it's thing, and every Renault gearbox I've ever used demanded it's own time and wouldn't be rushed. It's just the way they're made. The lower the gear ratio (ie, 1st gear) the more time it needs. And if it's old and worn, it needs a little bit more time. De-clutch and apply pressure to the gear lever short of just jamming it in. When the synchro matches shaft speeds, it will drop in... at it's own pace... work with it.
Good luck,
Tim Engel
Lotus Owners Oftha North
First, the Esprit requires a full stroke of the clutch pedal to produce a clean shift. Anything that effectively short-strokes it can produce a crunch going into gear. That includes not putting the pedal to the floor, air in the hydraulics, a leaky master or slave cylinder, a small-bore master cylinder retrofitted into a car set-up for a big-bore master-cyl, or an incorrectly adjusted threaded adaptor at the end of the clutch release lever.
"Red Hose Syndrome" has become the default easy answer whenever the gearbox begins to grind or shift with difficulty. It deserves some of the blame, but it's not the universal answer. Don't be blind to other possibilites. Especially since some of the maintenance and adjustment items are almost free if you do your own work, and the steel braided Aeroquip clutch hose is expensive. In my opinion, it's worthwhile-expensive, but not everyone wishes to throw cubic-money at solving problems. Don't skip the little stuff.
Bleed the hydraulics. Doing it right is easier said than done. The best way is with a pressure bleeder that can maintain a constant flow while bleeding. Pumping the pedal moves the fluid in a series of jerks, and that's not as effective at carrying entrained bubbles out of the system.
Inspect the fluid in the reservoir. It should be clear. If it's dark, or if you see a black layer near the bottom, that's residue from degrading seals and it's time to re-build or replace the master cylinder.
Inspect both master and slave cylinders for fluid leaks in the the area where the pushrod exits. A leak means re-build or replace. Inspecting the master for leaks requires assuming the Lotus Position in the footwell.
Two different master cylinders were used at different times. The first was a large, .70" bore. Owners complained about the heavy clutch pedal, so Lotus switched to a .5/8" (.625"
small bore. Then owners complained about the long pedal travel. So it became fairly common for previous owners to have swapped bore sizes to suit their own tastes.7 = heavy pedal but the pedal doesn't have to touch the carpet for a clean shift. 5/8 = lighter pedal, but it requires a full stroke and the pedal must go to the floor.
There should be a mark cast into the right side of the reservoir indicating 5/8 (.625" bore), or 70 (.700" bore).
Regardless of bore size, it's best to put the clutch pedal all the way down when shifting gears.
There are separate clutch pedal set-up procedures for the 5/8" and .7" master cylinders. See Section Q in the manual and make sure the pedal is set up for the cylinder that is installed.
Make sure the master cylinder push rod has free-play when the clutch pedal is released. That's part of the pedal set-up procedure, but important and worthy of redundant mention.
The adjuster at the outer end of the clutch release lever should be adjusted by the book. Too much exposed thread results in the clutch not releasing cleanly which leads to difficult shifting and grinding going into gears. Too little exposed thread can lead to less than full clutch engagement and possible slip. There's a sweet spot defined by the manual, so make sure it's right. The amount of thread exposed beyond the jam nut should be:
9-12.5mm = Esprit Turbo, Renault (outboard rear brakes)
22.0 mm = Esprit Turbo, Citroen (side-mounted slave cyl)
When something isn't right, reverse will be the first to grind since it's not synchronized in the '88 cars. You're just sliding an idler gear on a shaft to simultaneously engage two other gears... one on the primary shaft and one on the secondary. There's potential for making noise when the teeth engage.
First gear is the next most likely to grind since it has the largest gear ratio and hence, the greatest speed differential for the synchros to deal with. It's also the most frequently used gear, so the synchros are the first to wear out.
Shifting into another close gear first will help get into a reluctant gear... 2nd before going into 1st. 1st (or 2nd) before going into reverse.
When everything mechanical is right, then have a little mechanical empathy in your own technique. Don't just jamb it into gear. The synchro needs a little time to do it's thing, and every Renault gearbox I've ever used demanded it's own time and wouldn't be rushed. It's just the way they're made. The lower the gear ratio (ie, 1st gear) the more time it needs. And if it's old and worn, it needs a little bit more time. De-clutch and apply pressure to the gear lever short of just jamming it in. When the synchro matches shaft speeds, it will drop in... at it's own pace... work with it.
Good luck,
Tim Engel
Lotus Owners Oftha North
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