Giugiaro Esprit Engine Swap...
Discussion
I wanna ask what may be an incredibly noob like question. I'm gonna put it out there; if you like it, you can take it, if you don't, send it right back.
Like I imagine many of you, I fell in love with the Esprit after The Spy Who Loved Me. I have been happily biding my time and reading the odd bit here and there on Pistonheads and Lotus Esprit World, just keeping up my interest levels, as after hearing a few reliability nightmares, I wasn't sure how sensible a prospect it could ever be as a reasonably regular driver (potentially daily).
Then, a cunning plan. I love the shape of the S1 (and all the G-cars, including the turbo), but I am not so keen on the lack of power (S1), and the mechanical maladies (erm, the rest!). So I thought...why not swap in the running gear, electrics (if required), suspension, brakes and engine from a more modern car?
I'm not an engineer or a mechanic (in all honestly I hardly I have a clue) so I have no idea what might fit or if this could even be feasible. I reckoned engine wise, a Honda Type R Engine would be good for reliability (if needs be, supercharged like in the Ariel Atom - maybe a bit over the top).
I know that there are a number of companies out there that do this for Jaguar E-Types and Aston Martin's, so why not a classic Lotus? Any ideas of a suitable company?
I am sure some classic car aficionados will be crying blasphemy before I finish typing, but well, I don't care if I am honest. Why?
It will be my car, that I paid for, that I would want to use on a regular basis (or daily if it all works out properly), which I think is better than leaving it in a shed and only taking it out when conditions are perfect. More importantly, I am not technically skilled enough to look after a classic anyway, so it would be even more unfair to not pay proper attention to it. Plus, you can have all the parts I remove to fix yours when it goes wrong, so everyone is happy.
I appreciate as a noob it is likely that I will have offended someone (I love classic cars really, I just don't have time or skills to learn how to fix them), so I apologise, but please don't hammer the idea down just because you wouldn't want to do it to your pride and joy.
Thoughts about feasibility/what would be required would be really helpful! Would be cool to generate some discussion about whether this is a great idea, or the worst thought I have ever had, followed by me being chased off Pistonheads for my foolish suggestion.
Like I imagine many of you, I fell in love with the Esprit after The Spy Who Loved Me. I have been happily biding my time and reading the odd bit here and there on Pistonheads and Lotus Esprit World, just keeping up my interest levels, as after hearing a few reliability nightmares, I wasn't sure how sensible a prospect it could ever be as a reasonably regular driver (potentially daily).
Then, a cunning plan. I love the shape of the S1 (and all the G-cars, including the turbo), but I am not so keen on the lack of power (S1), and the mechanical maladies (erm, the rest!). So I thought...why not swap in the running gear, electrics (if required), suspension, brakes and engine from a more modern car?
I'm not an engineer or a mechanic (in all honestly I hardly I have a clue) so I have no idea what might fit or if this could even be feasible. I reckoned engine wise, a Honda Type R Engine would be good for reliability (if needs be, supercharged like in the Ariel Atom - maybe a bit over the top).
I know that there are a number of companies out there that do this for Jaguar E-Types and Aston Martin's, so why not a classic Lotus? Any ideas of a suitable company?
I am sure some classic car aficionados will be crying blasphemy before I finish typing, but well, I don't care if I am honest. Why?
It will be my car, that I paid for, that I would want to use on a regular basis (or daily if it all works out properly), which I think is better than leaving it in a shed and only taking it out when conditions are perfect. More importantly, I am not technically skilled enough to look after a classic anyway, so it would be even more unfair to not pay proper attention to it. Plus, you can have all the parts I remove to fix yours when it goes wrong, so everyone is happy.
I appreciate as a noob it is likely that I will have offended someone (I love classic cars really, I just don't have time or skills to learn how to fix them), so I apologise, but please don't hammer the idea down just because you wouldn't want to do it to your pride and joy.
Thoughts about feasibility/what would be required would be really helpful! Would be cool to generate some discussion about whether this is a great idea, or the worst thought I have ever had, followed by me being chased off Pistonheads for my foolish suggestion.
Here are a couple of LEF members' recent Esprit transplant projects that show what can be done
Hilly's Audi 4.2 V8
Punky's Jaguar 3.0 V6
Hilly's Audi 4.2 V8
Punky's Jaguar 3.0 V6
Edited by Tentenths on Thursday 15th November 22:19
Those two are both extremely good examples of what can be done and are a credit to their respective owners.
A while ago you buy a kit for plopping a Rover V8 in the back of a G car including the S1 (anything from a 3.5 on Su carbs, right up to a TVR spec 5ltr injected lump!). I've seen the Renault V6 turbo lump installed (not too difficult) as well as a Sierra Cossie engine running an amusing amount of bhp.
It'd be feasible to remove the body from a V8 Esprit and squeeze the S1 fibreglass body onto the V8's chassis and running gear.
The biggest issue you will have, along with all of the engine transplants for the S1, is keeping the engine cool (along with engine bay temperatures). Once you've cracked that, turn your attention to the gearbox....
There's not many good S1 Esprits left now, so it'd probably be best to just enjoy the 30 year old car for what it is rather than trying to force it to keep pace with a hot hatch.
(as for the other G cars, get your grinder out and bung in anything that takes your fancy!
. 
)
A while ago you buy a kit for plopping a Rover V8 in the back of a G car including the S1 (anything from a 3.5 on Su carbs, right up to a TVR spec 5ltr injected lump!). I've seen the Renault V6 turbo lump installed (not too difficult) as well as a Sierra Cossie engine running an amusing amount of bhp.
It'd be feasible to remove the body from a V8 Esprit and squeeze the S1 fibreglass body onto the V8's chassis and running gear.
The biggest issue you will have, along with all of the engine transplants for the S1, is keeping the engine cool (along with engine bay temperatures). Once you've cracked that, turn your attention to the gearbox....
There's not many good S1 Esprits left now, so it'd probably be best to just enjoy the 30 year old car for what it is rather than trying to force it to keep pace with a hot hatch.
(as for the other G cars, get your grinder out and bung in anything that takes your fancy!
. )Mr Egg (?)
You say you have next to no mechanical expertise, if that is the case then unless you are going to pay someone to do the mods (if you can find someone to take on such a project be prepared to spend LOTS of money) I would say you are possibly going to over-stretch yourself as an engine swap is by no means a trivial task.
However it is not impossible so if you don't get put off then start saving up for lots of tools and plasters for skinned knuckles.
To give you some sort of idea of what is involved in a project like this, it took me 12 months of 1 day a weekend and numerous long evenings in the week to get my Audi engine fitted and running. Check out my project thread on LEF as it give a pretty good idea of the process.
Doing a 'G'car is more work as you need to sort out the inboard rear brakes (which will probably mean up-rating the fronts to match) and the S1/S2 is even more challenging due to the drive shafts providing the upper rear suspension link. Most transaxles you will end up fitting will not be designed to cope with these sorts of loads on the output flanges, so you would be better going for an S3 or Turbo due to it's improved rear suspension arrangement.
Your profile says you are based in London which is not too far away from me.
If you want to have a look at mine PM me and we should be able to sort something out.
Hilly
You say you have next to no mechanical expertise, if that is the case then unless you are going to pay someone to do the mods (if you can find someone to take on such a project be prepared to spend LOTS of money) I would say you are possibly going to over-stretch yourself as an engine swap is by no means a trivial task.
However it is not impossible so if you don't get put off then start saving up for lots of tools and plasters for skinned knuckles.
To give you some sort of idea of what is involved in a project like this, it took me 12 months of 1 day a weekend and numerous long evenings in the week to get my Audi engine fitted and running. Check out my project thread on LEF as it give a pretty good idea of the process.
Doing a 'G'car is more work as you need to sort out the inboard rear brakes (which will probably mean up-rating the fronts to match) and the S1/S2 is even more challenging due to the drive shafts providing the upper rear suspension link. Most transaxles you will end up fitting will not be designed to cope with these sorts of loads on the output flanges, so you would be better going for an S3 or Turbo due to it's improved rear suspension arrangement.
Your profile says you are based in London which is not too far away from me.
If you want to have a look at mine PM me and we should be able to sort something out.
Hilly
Mr Egg isn't my real name, but it will do for now! 
I am not really in any kind of rush at all, my parents are moving and will have a perfectly servicable garage from next year, so just wanted to get an idea at the moment.
So...it's possible! Also loving the fact that although I though my idea of a supercharged Honda engine was a bit over the top, that Audi V8 has made me consider I haven't been thinking hard enough!
On basis that I have just read through your thread and realised just how complicated this could be, I reckon I would definitely have to put this into the hands of an expert. Any rough guesses of someone to do it and how much we could be talking about?
Perhaps mashing up an S1 could actually be considered a bit harsh, considering how few there are about.
Incredibly impressed with both the efforts, they look fantastic. I am from South West London, so it would be good to meet up at some point, but am pretty tided down at the moment. When is the next Esprit meet (not sure how many different ones there might be) that you might be able to make, I could pop along to that and start to get a feel for what might be more sensible!
Also, if I did just decide to settle for a standard Esprit, where near South West London would be a sensible place for servicing and general fixing when things go wrong?
Thanks for all the help, really appreciated!
I am not really in any kind of rush at all, my parents are moving and will have a perfectly servicable garage from next year, so just wanted to get an idea at the moment.
So...it's possible! Also loving the fact that although I though my idea of a supercharged Honda engine was a bit over the top, that Audi V8 has made me consider I haven't been thinking hard enough!
On basis that I have just read through your thread and realised just how complicated this could be, I reckon I would definitely have to put this into the hands of an expert. Any rough guesses of someone to do it and how much we could be talking about?
Perhaps mashing up an S1 could actually be considered a bit harsh, considering how few there are about.
Incredibly impressed with both the efforts, they look fantastic. I am from South West London, so it would be good to meet up at some point, but am pretty tided down at the moment. When is the next Esprit meet (not sure how many different ones there might be) that you might be able to make, I could pop along to that and start to get a feel for what might be more sensible!
Also, if I did just decide to settle for a standard Esprit, where near South West London would be a sensible place for servicing and general fixing when things go wrong?
Thanks for all the help, really appreciated!
Radioegg said:
Mr Egg isn't my real name, but it will do for now!
I am not really in any kind of rush at all, my parents are moving and will have a perfectly servicable garage from next year, so just wanted to get an idea at the moment.
So...it's possible! Also loving the fact that although I though my idea of a supercharged Honda engine was a bit over the top, that Audi V8 has made me consider I haven't been thinking hard enough!
On basis that I have just read through your thread and realised just how complicated this could be, I reckon I would definitely have to put this into the hands of an expert. Any rough guesses of someone to do it and how much we could be talking about?
Perhaps mashing up an S1 could actually be considered a bit harsh, considering how few there are about.
Incredibly impressed with both the efforts, they look fantastic. I am from South West London, so it would be good to meet up at some point, but am pretty tided down at the moment. When is the next Esprit meet (not sure how many different ones there might be) that you might be able to make, I could pop along to that and start to get a feel for what might be more sensible!
Also, if I did just decide to settle for a standard Esprit, where near South West London would be a sensible place for servicing and general fixing when things go wrong?
Thanks for all the help, really appreciated!
Well to get you thinking along the right lines, anything which uses a transverse engine (like the Honda) will be too wide to fit in the engine bay without SERIOUS chassis work and because the fuel tanks are either side.I am not really in any kind of rush at all, my parents are moving and will have a perfectly servicable garage from next year, so just wanted to get an idea at the moment.
So...it's possible! Also loving the fact that although I though my idea of a supercharged Honda engine was a bit over the top, that Audi V8 has made me consider I haven't been thinking hard enough!
On basis that I have just read through your thread and realised just how complicated this could be, I reckon I would definitely have to put this into the hands of an expert. Any rough guesses of someone to do it and how much we could be talking about?
Perhaps mashing up an S1 could actually be considered a bit harsh, considering how few there are about.
Incredibly impressed with both the efforts, they look fantastic. I am from South West London, so it would be good to meet up at some point, but am pretty tided down at the moment. When is the next Esprit meet (not sure how many different ones there might be) that you might be able to make, I could pop along to that and start to get a feel for what might be more sensible!
Also, if I did just decide to settle for a standard Esprit, where near South West London would be a sensible place for servicing and general fixing when things go wrong?
Thanks for all the help, really appreciated!
This means you need a transaxle which severely limits your options unless you are spending big money.
This is why I went the Audi route as the V8 is a compact engine which generates good power in NA form and will bolt directly to an Audi transaxle without an adaptor plate. There are not many other options out there which go together so well.
Hmmmmm, getting someone to do it will require a good bit of hunting around as this is a pretty specialised project.
As for servicing and repair, again you will be in uncharted territory as most Lotus places will probably be unwilling to take it on, the best place would be where you had the conversion carried out as they will know most about the car.
As for conversion costs, that is a difficult one as so many parts need to be hand made.
I was talking to my old man a while back about how much would be reasonable figure to do another Audi V8 conversion.
For the whole package including making the engine mounts, gearbox, radiator, exhausts, linkages, brakes, glass fibre work, ecu programming etc and the pre-start research you would be looking at the minimum 500 hours work if someone is starting from scratch. Now if the hourly rate is £25 you are looking at £12,500 just in labour!!
Then there is the engine, gearbox, exhaust, flywheel, clutch, custom drive shafts, bigger radiator, ECU, brake discs and calipers, general odds and sods which would easily be over £6K. On top of that of course is the car, a basket case S3 would be about £2K, adding all that up you end up with a figure of around £20K, you can get a good V8 for that money. So from a financial point of view it makes no sense at all.
Now mine didn't cost anywhere near that as the labour was free, but with the cost of the car thrown in it was still very significant, but I do now have a pretty unique (and bloody fast) 'G'car.................
As it is now the winter the meets are getting a bit thin on the ground till the spring.
SW london is very close to me (Shepperton) so if you want a peek, drop me a PM
Hilly
Edited by hilly on Friday 16th November 17:30
Why not get a turbo? the shape is practically identical an it has 210 hp out of the box, a bit of mild tuning work can easily up that figure, and you have a fast car that can be sold on afterwards, the cost will also be a lot less than that of what you are currently considering.
Most people who do this thing do a lot of the work themselves, you are going to find it extremely expensive to get this work done as it will involve a lot of hours of labour
You can also tune the n/a engine in a S1 to good power levels, this engine was used in competion and there are places that can do you a 2.5 or 2.6 litre rebuild that in a road usable trim should be good for 230+
However if cost is not an issue and it's what your hearts set on, then the key consideration is a good garage with the the required expertise so you dont end up with a bodged job
Most people who do this thing do a lot of the work themselves, you are going to find it extremely expensive to get this work done as it will involve a lot of hours of labour
You can also tune the n/a engine in a S1 to good power levels, this engine was used in competion and there are places that can do you a 2.5 or 2.6 litre rebuild that in a road usable trim should be good for 230+
However if cost is not an issue and it's what your hearts set on, then the key consideration is a good garage with the the required expertise so you dont end up with a bodged job
Edited by peter450 on Friday 16th November 18:42
hahithestevieboy said:
Would an s2000 engine with a transaxle gearbox not just fit in with relative ease?
It probably would, but there isn't a transaxle that would bolt straight on, you would need an adaptor plate. If you are then going to that much effort then there are better alternatives than the Honda lump.
Fitting a later SE engine and hardware will give you more power than the Honda and it is a bolt in swap (ish).
Hilly
Edited by hilly on Tuesday 11th December 18:03
hilly said:
hahithestevieboy said:
Would an s2000 engine with a transaxle gearbox not just fit in with relative ease?
It probably would, but there isn't a transaxle that would bolt straight on, you would need an adaptor plate. If you are then going to that much effort then there are better alternatives than the Honda lump.
Fitting a later SE engine and hardware will give you more power than the Honda and it is a bolt in swap (ish).
Hilly
Edited by hilly on Tuesday 11th December 18:03
If you are dead set on an engine swap I would probably go V6 or V8 normally aspirated rather than an after market turbo on an 4 cyl engine. The SE turbo engine has the proper injectors, ECU, and sensors that one will not normally get with an after market bolt on that are controlled by some sort of adjustable boost controller. Since it is pretty apparent that you have little or no experience with engine swaps you will pay for the experience of a good modifier with your wallet. I suppose if money is not an issue with you and there is nothing wrong with that as long as you are will to pay. I have seen a couple of early Esprit's with a V6 Yamaha from the SHO Taurus and there are Rotary engine equiped Europa's around. They are refered to as a Shotus or Rotus around here. Go for it and keep us informed on your adventure. More power to you if you can do it.
hahithestevieboy said:
I would have thought an adapter plate would be the least of your worries. Besides, bolt on a turbo or some throttle bodies and it'd be awsome
Adaptor plates are normally not as simple as they appear, input shaft alignment, starter motor location, clutch offset etc all need to be carefully worked out before committing someone to machine an expensive large lump of metal.Not had a look the S2000 engine dimensions, but I would hazard a guess that it is relatively long and that combined with the available transaxles (which again are quite long) would be a challenge as the Esprit engine cradle is not all that long.
This and the additional effort of fitting a turbo etc ON TOP of the actual swap hardware (engine mounts, gear linkage etc) means that there are better options which would be less effort for the same output power.
Don't get me wrong, I think the S2000 lump is very nice (if a bit of rev monster), but not really a good candidate for a swap into an Esprit.
Trust me (as I have done it), there is enough to do without having to add stuff to get the engine output up.
Hilly
If you can't look after a 'classic' that runs basic technology you are going to be up shit creek if your 21st century Jap or German wonder engine goes tits-up. There is nothing more complicated on an Esprit than you would find in the average 4-cylinder 1.2L hatchback. The twincam does not run clearances tighter than a gnat's chuff nor is it made from Unobtanium.
I know! Why not go all radical and just love the Esprit for what it is? If you want a screamer, buy a Jap car. Probably with wings and spoilers.
I know! Why not go all radical and just love the Esprit for what it is? If you want a screamer, buy a Jap car. Probably with wings and spoilers.Wedg1e said:
If you can't look after a 'classic' that runs basic technology you are going to be up s
t creek if your 21st century Jap or German wonder engine goes tits-up. There is nothing more complicated on an Esprit than you would find in the average 4-cylinder 1.2L hatchback. The twincam does not run clearances tighter than a gnat's chuff nor is it made from Unobtanium.
I know! Why not go all radical and just love the Esprit for what it is? If you want a screamer, buy a Jap car. Probably with wings and spoilers.
Firstly, thanks to the other members of the forum who have provided positive comments.t creek if your 21st century Jap or German wonder engine goes tits-up. There is nothing more complicated on an Esprit than you would find in the average 4-cylinder 1.2L hatchback. The twincam does not run clearances tighter than a gnat's chuff nor is it made from Unobtanium. I know! Why not go all radical and just love the Esprit for what it is? If you want a screamer, buy a Jap car. Probably with wings and spoilers.Like Radioegg, I am interested in doing a major job involving engine (yet to be decided), tranny (most likely Audi or Subaru), suspension, brakes, steering from a newer car. Ideally, all parts sourced from the same car would save some of the hassles Hilly mentioned with respect to adapter plates, as well as driveshaft/hub/hub-carrier/suspension mis-matches.
The reason for me wanting to look at this option is that the sea/air gap between Australia and the motherland magically transforms Lotus parts from steel into unobtanium (Wedg1e). And by the way, thanks for your valuable contribution to this topic (I'm sure you can even see sarcasm in forums), even after Radioegg spent a lot of time explaining that he didn't want to offend you.
Even over in your part of the world you'd be lucky to find a rear wheel hub for an S2! (new = unobtanium, from parts supplier = unobtanium, from an owner = not a chance, from an engineer = good luck finding one who will do it without wanting you to exchange your left arm for it)
I want to see my Esprit on the roads for a very long time (and as a daily driver), and am willing to invest money in modifications to extend the running life. Anyone can see that the cost of maintaining these is only going to increase, and it won't be too long before many more parts will need to be engineered.
So, on the one hand you have purists (probably like Wedg1e) who can admire their pride and joy stored in their garage under covers only to bring it out on the occasional rain-free weekend for a few months of the year (and I'm sure I'll hear many replies with justifiable reasons for that), and on the other hand you have people who want to drive their Esprit as much as possible - because they LOVE it!
For the record, I don't want a "screamer"! I don't really care if it's slower than the current engine. 60kmh on the road is quicker than 0kmh at the local mechanic waiting for parts from the UK.
And there's a garage on every corner over here that is capable of working on 21st century Jap or German or French or American or British...engines. I'm sure you've got a few over there as well.
Having got that off my chest....
I have access to an 83 Turbo Esprit which has been sitting in the Australian weather for over 15 years and appears occupied by 15th generation spiders. It has a chassis which appears to be in extremely good shape considering. Not much else is salvagable, and the owner (who also has a Porsche 928 in a similar state) is not interested in restoring it. Given the cost of required parts for restoration (especially in Australia), the future of this car is likely that it will be towed to a wrecker when the current owner passes away (which may not be too far away).
He is interested in the offer I gave him recently, and I'm interested in getting that chassis to start modifying, while at the same time driving and enjoying the Esprit I currently have. Once the huge amount of work is done on the chassis with engine, running gear etc, I can swap it for the current chassis. I can also offer the remaining parts for other Australian enthusiasts who may find value in them to keep their Turbo Esprits on the road. If the project goes downhill, well I've still got a running Esprit, and some enjoyment from trying.
If you prefer the Giugiaro styling, but want performance and reliability, then surely the best starting point would be a S3 HC Turbo.
The HC motor is a big improvement on the earlier 900 series engines and produces 215bhp in standard form.
If you prefer the purer style of the S1, then it is a relatively simple job to remove all of the spoilers and louvres.
As far as performance and reliability are concerned, then a carefully tuned HC Turbo with a few tricks incorporated from the later cars would surely be more cost effective and straightforward than an engine transplant.
The galvanised S3 chassis and rear suspension arrangement is miles better than the S1 and S2 cars.
I really don't understand why more people don't start with an S3 and turn them into S1 replicas.
S1s are fetching very strong money these days, whereas a scruffy but sound S3 can be had for peanuts.
I recently sold this old dog for less than £3000.
The HC motor is a big improvement on the earlier 900 series engines and produces 215bhp in standard form.
If you prefer the purer style of the S1, then it is a relatively simple job to remove all of the spoilers and louvres.
As far as performance and reliability are concerned, then a carefully tuned HC Turbo with a few tricks incorporated from the later cars would surely be more cost effective and straightforward than an engine transplant.
The galvanised S3 chassis and rear suspension arrangement is miles better than the S1 and S2 cars.
I really don't understand why more people don't start with an S3 and turn them into S1 replicas.
S1s are fetching very strong money these days, whereas a scruffy but sound S3 can be had for peanuts.
I recently sold this old dog for less than £3000.
I would be very interested to hear from any of you who have carried out an S3 to S1 conversion.
I prefer the un-adorned look of the S1, but realise the design is inferior to the S3, and have you seen S1 prices lately?
How similar is the body shape once you remove spoliers, bumpers etc?
A set of Wolfrace alloys isn't difficult to come by (£50-80 on e-bay)and I wouldn't need to go the whole hog with the interior.
Any thoughts?
David
I prefer the un-adorned look of the S1, but realise the design is inferior to the S3, and have you seen S1 prices lately?
How similar is the body shape once you remove spoliers, bumpers etc?
A set of Wolfrace alloys isn't difficult to come by (£50-80 on e-bay)and I wouldn't need to go the whole hog with the interior.
Any thoughts?
David
Pat H said:
I really don't understand why more people don't start with an S3 and turn them into S1 replicas.
Undoubtedly the best way to go IMO.The Esprit is a difficult enough car to work on in standard form as a result of the tight packaging. Any modification is only likely to make that worse.
If you want to up the power, just remember they put that big spoiler on the back of the turbo for a reason!
Also they put the ears on the sides and the slats in the rear window for a reason. And the enlarged front spoilers.
Well I sould be able to make informed comment on this question - if I had completed my project ( http://www.ProjectM71.com/ ) but time, money, love life etc etc get in the way!
I am well impressed with the two examples of "in & running" conversions here, particulary the Duratec V6 version.... maybe not becuase it's technically superior but because again it humbles my lack of progress (and my approach of buying another car with that engine ^.^ http://www.M12.ClubNoble.co.uk/ )
I am well impressed with the two examples of "in & running" conversions here, particulary the Duratec V6 version.... maybe not becuase it's technically superior but because again it humbles my lack of progress (and my approach of buying another car with that engine ^.^ http://www.M12.ClubNoble.co.uk/ )
Yes, the big rear spoiler on the turbo IS there for a reason - because Giugiaro wanted it! If you look at the top of the louvres on the hatch of the turbo, there is a small raised rib. This is there to disrupt the airflow down the hatch so that the big rear spoiler does NOTHING - Lotus found Giugiaro's spoiler upset the balance of the car and had to add the rib to sort it!
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