PO really got me!!!!
Discussion
I assume when you baught it you didn't have both you and him sign any kind of sale agreement?
Usually when buying used from a dealer you have all this sort of paper work laying out the conditions of sale. In this it has to be of 'satisfactory quality' and 'as advertised' etc.
I think unless there is something in writing specifying the condition of the vehicle etc, the only legal obligation in a private sale is that it be safe to drive (Road Traffic Act 1988 [UK law]).
Clocking is common, especially on older desirables, did you get a Vehicle agancy to confirm it's history?
As far as I know (UK Law), the vehicle has to be 'as described', otherwise the seller is liable to rectify the vehicle to any claim made originally. Did you discuss the mileage with him? Usually I ask: '...and is what is the mileage? ...and this is a genuine figure?' The seller will say what he knows. It is up to you then to prove he was lying if he claims he didn't know. If it is a one owner car, this is much easier to do. If there were several, it is obviously more difficult as it involves more people who have to be seeked out. Service history is vital to help prove such a thing.
Even after this, you have to ask, what possible reporation can be made for lying about mileage. It's not like the guy saying: 'as new condition...' and you finding that the bodywork is scratched, or the switches don't work, etc.
Regards,
Nicholas
(92 SE, 03 V8)
>> Edited by NLJdH on Sunday 2nd March 22:02
Usually when buying used from a dealer you have all this sort of paper work laying out the conditions of sale. In this it has to be of 'satisfactory quality' and 'as advertised' etc.
I think unless there is something in writing specifying the condition of the vehicle etc, the only legal obligation in a private sale is that it be safe to drive (Road Traffic Act 1988 [UK law]).
Clocking is common, especially on older desirables, did you get a Vehicle agancy to confirm it's history?
As far as I know (UK Law), the vehicle has to be 'as described', otherwise the seller is liable to rectify the vehicle to any claim made originally. Did you discuss the mileage with him? Usually I ask: '...and is what is the mileage? ...and this is a genuine figure?' The seller will say what he knows. It is up to you then to prove he was lying if he claims he didn't know. If it is a one owner car, this is much easier to do. If there were several, it is obviously more difficult as it involves more people who have to be seeked out. Service history is vital to help prove such a thing.
Even after this, you have to ask, what possible reporation can be made for lying about mileage. It's not like the guy saying: 'as new condition...' and you finding that the bodywork is scratched, or the switches don't work, etc.
Regards,
Nicholas
(92 SE, 03 V8)
>> Edited by NLJdH on Sunday 2nd March 22:02
Dr Ian...
Where in the States are you and I will see what I can do to help you out. When you bought the car, did the PO transfer title to you? There is usually an Odometer statement along with the title. If he lied - in just about every state in the nation - he has committed fraud and usually a felony. You may be able to threaten him with that to get some kind of "settlement" back from him...
(Don't tell the PO, but the fact that it has that many miles on it may be a good thing. At least he didn't let it sit - bad - bad for car)
ErnestM
Where in the States are you and I will see what I can do to help you out. When you bought the car, did the PO transfer title to you? There is usually an Odometer statement along with the title. If he lied - in just about every state in the nation - he has committed fraud and usually a felony. You may be able to threaten him with that to get some kind of "settlement" back from him...
(Don't tell the PO, but the fact that it has that many miles on it may be a good thing. At least he didn't let it sit - bad - bad for car)
ErnestM
Hello,
If you bought the car with orignal miles on title and paperwork , you can take what you have found that showes that the miles have been rolled back to the the DMV and they can tell you what to do. I had a car like that in S.C. and they made them pay me back for the car and pay for all the things that I done to the car after I got it. Or they had the option of going to JAIL. Rolling back miles is a Federal crime in the U.S.
Thanks David
>> Edited by 88turbo on Sunday 2nd March 23:58
If you bought the car with orignal miles on title and paperwork , you can take what you have found that showes that the miles have been rolled back to the the DMV and they can tell you what to do. I had a car like that in S.C. and they made them pay me back for the car and pay for all the things that I done to the car after I got it. Or they had the option of going to JAIL. Rolling back miles is a Federal crime in the U.S.
Thanks David
>> Edited by 88turbo on Sunday 2nd March 23:58
Dr Ian,
Welcome to the club, my p.o disconected the speedo cable in the transaxle the whole time he had the car. I figured this out by coming across a web site he had a year ago w/ pics of road trips he had been on in my esprit. Not to mention the laps at the texas motor speedway that were on the site. I knew that 2k mi. was a little low for three years of ownership. If he is the orig. owner there is no where for him to hided (Uh, maybe the other owner did it) I would definatley take legal action, I am pretty sure he would be willing to settle this outside of court. Milk him for what it's worth, you'll need it for maintenance!
Good Luck!
Dino 88 turbo
Welcome to the club, my p.o disconected the speedo cable in the transaxle the whole time he had the car. I figured this out by coming across a web site he had a year ago w/ pics of road trips he had been on in my esprit. Not to mention the laps at the texas motor speedway that were on the site. I knew that 2k mi. was a little low for three years of ownership. If he is the orig. owner there is no where for him to hided (Uh, maybe the other owner did it) I would definatley take legal action, I am pretty sure he would be willing to settle this outside of court. Milk him for what it's worth, you'll need it for maintenance!
Good Luck!
Dino 88 turbo
OK, I had something very similar happen. First things first, contact the state DMV where the PO had the car registered. Obtain a certified copy of the odometer reading...they will have it on file. This will tell you the mileage on the car when he bought it.
Then, contact a lawyer. Let your lawyer handle it.
I bought a Checy van some 10 years ago, and the odo had rolled over 100K. The odo read 40K, but really had 140! The dealer knew this but lied and signed the fraudulent paperwork. The van threw a rod while I was doing 70Mph down the freeway.
I did the above, and was awarded trebled (triple) damages by the judge.
Then, contact a lawyer. Let your lawyer handle it.
I bought a Checy van some 10 years ago, and the odo had rolled over 100K. The odo read 40K, but really had 140! The dealer knew this but lied and signed the fraudulent paperwork. The van threw a rod while I was doing 70Mph down the freeway.
I did the above, and was awarded trebled (triple) damages by the judge.
Dr. Ian,
I can't give any advise only sympathy. I know this car is new to you and so is the Lotus experience which is just like myself. I have a slight problem with my service book which I only noticed last week. On the last service, it appears to have a mileage slightly altered from 59K to 57K which Iam still investigating. 2K doesn't seam a lot and I have confronted the PO who Iam still in contact with. He tells me that the garage had made the mistake and did the alteration but I haven't spoken with the garage yet. It does make you wonder though.
With these cars having old components in them, it's so easy to clock back. Even an novice could clock one of these cars back, so I can understand why, especially on these cars having quite high prices, are more prone to this scam.
I sincerely hope this hasn't put you off the Esprit experience. I know that you haven't had much luck lately and believe me, I know how you must feel.
At the end of the day, this was meant to be a dream come true not a nightmare
I can't give any advise only sympathy. I know this car is new to you and so is the Lotus experience which is just like myself. I have a slight problem with my service book which I only noticed last week. On the last service, it appears to have a mileage slightly altered from 59K to 57K which Iam still investigating. 2K doesn't seam a lot and I have confronted the PO who Iam still in contact with. He tells me that the garage had made the mistake and did the alteration but I haven't spoken with the garage yet. It does make you wonder though.
With these cars having old components in them, it's so easy to clock back. Even an novice could clock one of these cars back, so I can understand why, especially on these cars having quite high prices, are more prone to this scam.
I sincerely hope this hasn't put you off the Esprit experience. I know that you haven't had much luck lately and believe me, I know how you must feel.
At the end of the day, this was meant to be a dream come true not a nightmare
No..No..This is not ruining my experience with lotus...just the guy who did it. I have the original title, and he was the only owner it ever had. The title reads about 60 miles when he bought it off the lot new. I will post the carfax in a minute so you all can see it. He is a doctor in Atlanta, and I am in Kansas City. He advertized and told me that the car had 50k miles. So, I purchased it. Well, the car fax has many years over 50k on it, and 2 years of rollbacks, totalling over 47,000 miles roll back. I faxed the PO a letter to his practice today. I told him what I had found out, and that it was his reponsability because he was the only PO, he was not telling the truth, and did not disclose any discreptancy about the odometer. I gave him the option to pay me back and take the car. This inluded the new alternator, paint job, plane ticket, other things, and 100 hours labor at $30. I told him this was the price not including shipping back to Atlanta and attorney fees if he lets it go to court. The second option is to settle the differnce by him paying for the decreased value the car has with the extra miles. This would be about $3000. I told him I waould take legal action within 5 days if he did not resolve the ordeal. The guy really is in a bad spot. I do not really feel too bad, because he did this to himself. The sad thing is that he really is putting his license at risk if he does not resolve the matter. His other lotus is the x180r. If I do not hear from him, I am contacting a lawyer, his DMV, and his Attorney General. I would love any help or advice.
03/17/1992 40,422 Georgia
Inspection Station
Atlanta, GA
Passed emissions inspection
03/16/1993 60,100 Georgia
Inspection Station
Atlanta, GA
Passed emissions inspection
03/20/1995 79,656 Georgia
Inspection Station
Atlanta, GA
Failed emissions inspection
03/20/1995 79,664 Georgia
Inspection Station
Atlanta, GA
Failed emissions inspection
03/30/1995 80,298 Georgia
Inspection Station
Atlanta, GA
Passed emissions inspection
03/04/1996 86,000 Georgia
Inspection Station
Atlanta, GA
Passed emissions inspection
05/28/1998 87,949 Georgia
Inspection Station
Marietta, GA
Passed emissions inspection
12/11/2000 48,402 Georgia
Inspection Station
Passed emissions inspection
05/29/2001 48,442 Georgia
Inspection Station
Passed emissions inspection
06/07/2001 48,446 Georgia
Inspection Station
Passed emissions inspection
11/26/2001 48,452 Georgia
Inspection Station
Passed emissions inspection
05/31/2002 42,852 Georgia
Inspection Station
Passed emissions inspection
POTENTIAL ODOMETER ROLLBACK
Inspection Station
Atlanta, GA
Passed emissions inspection
03/16/1993 60,100 Georgia
Inspection Station
Atlanta, GA
Passed emissions inspection
03/20/1995 79,656 Georgia
Inspection Station
Atlanta, GA
Failed emissions inspection
03/20/1995 79,664 Georgia
Inspection Station
Atlanta, GA
Failed emissions inspection
03/30/1995 80,298 Georgia
Inspection Station
Atlanta, GA
Passed emissions inspection
03/04/1996 86,000 Georgia
Inspection Station
Atlanta, GA
Passed emissions inspection
05/28/1998 87,949 Georgia
Inspection Station
Marietta, GA
Passed emissions inspection
12/11/2000 48,402 Georgia
Inspection Station
Passed emissions inspection
05/29/2001 48,442 Georgia
Inspection Station
Passed emissions inspection
06/07/2001 48,446 Georgia
Inspection Station
Passed emissions inspection
11/26/2001 48,452 Georgia
Inspection Station
Passed emissions inspection
05/31/2002 42,852 Georgia
Inspection Station
Passed emissions inspection
POTENTIAL ODOMETER ROLLBACK
You did good sending that fax! That ought to scare the hell out of him. If he is smart he will resolve this issue ASAP! I just dont get how this went unnoticed by the DMV. Any suggestions? I cant believe it is that easy to turn back the odometer and not get caught for it between transactions. keep us posted!
dr.ian said: I called the federal department, and they said that any car over 10 years old cannot be handled by them. They said I could take him to small claims court. So, does that mean court in Kansas or Georgia? What is the price limit on small claims court?
Georgia (as I assume that is where the transaction took place). Sounds like a good small claims court case. I would give this gentleman a chance to settle the dispute first, though.
ErnestM
Dr. Ian,
You can see where he started to make the obvious changes to his clock back in 1995. It looks as though he did about 15K/ year. The next year he only covered er.. 6000 miles. What are the chances of it landing exactly on 86000 miles hey? He did over 600 miles in just over a week when the emissions failed. That would equate to about 23K a year. The next year was even worse, 2000 miles in 2 years and 2 months! Since 2000 he hasn't done any mileage whatsoever.
What checks do the DMV do while all this is happening. Surely there should be some checks at there end to pick up on ther computer when a leeser number is entered from a previous year. There should be if there isn't. What should happen is an automatic letter sent to the owner if when the vehicle is testing and the mileage is entered less than the previous year, asking why?
Such a simple but more effective solution.
cheers,
Dave Walters
You can see where he started to make the obvious changes to his clock back in 1995. It looks as though he did about 15K/ year. The next year he only covered er.. 6000 miles. What are the chances of it landing exactly on 86000 miles hey? He did over 600 miles in just over a week when the emissions failed. That would equate to about 23K a year. The next year was even worse, 2000 miles in 2 years and 2 months! Since 2000 he hasn't done any mileage whatsoever.
What checks do the DMV do while all this is happening. Surely there should be some checks at there end to pick up on ther computer when a leeser number is entered from a previous year. There should be if there isn't. What should happen is an automatic letter sent to the owner if when the vehicle is testing and the mileage is entered less than the previous year, asking why?
Such a simple but more effective solution.
cheers,
Dave Walters
Dr. Ian,
Sounds like your on top of it, good luck to you in your legal bashing. I have a case that's been going on in vegas for 2 yrs now, a shop in vegas that claimed to be lotus certified ( Desert Imports ) ripped me on a "lotus remanufactured transaxle", it was my orig transaxle w/ a fresh coat of silver paint and a patch job from hell. Well after chasing them around and a few depositions later they are trying to settle w/ a piddly offer that barely covers my attorney fees. Just get all your ammo together and go BIG!!! CASH HIM IN!!!!
Good Luck Brother,
Dino 88 turbo
Sounds like your on top of it, good luck to you in your legal bashing. I have a case that's been going on in vegas for 2 yrs now, a shop in vegas that claimed to be lotus certified ( Desert Imports ) ripped me on a "lotus remanufactured transaxle", it was my orig transaxle w/ a fresh coat of silver paint and a patch job from hell. Well after chasing them around and a few depositions later they are trying to settle w/ a piddly offer that barely covers my attorney fees. Just get all your ammo together and go BIG!!! CASH HIM IN!!!!
Good Luck Brother,
Dino 88 turbo
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