esprit 89 turbo se and lack of decent brakes
Discussion
the toyota brakes are not as good as modern items i'm afraid, i have an excel and it uses the same toyota brakes as the esprit se, there not really powerful enough for my car which is 180bhp so i can imagine the fright your getting, on the + side beeing toyota there are a few upgrades that can be done that wont cost the earth, first is drilled and slotted discs these are bolt on replacments, next up is braided hoses and lastly better pads, i few ppl on the excel board have had the fronts uprated and i expect no small number fo esprit owners have done the same his some options for you
www.lotusespritworld.co.uk/EGuides/EModifications/Brakes-Upgrade.html
www.lotusespritworld.co.uk/EGuides/EModifications/Brakes-Upgrade.html
espritmatt said:
hi there iv just bought a 89turbo se its my first esprit i got to say i love the car but the braking systems appaling just wanted to know if all esprits are like that or is it probable that ive got a problem
The brakes aren't great stopping from high speed, or on a track, but they should work fine at street speeds. If not then you may not have enough vacuum for the brake booster. It is common for the vacuum pump to fail. Do a vacuum system check and replace the pump if necessary with a NAPA #64-1006.
i had the same reaction first i drove an esprit. your brakes are probably working as engineered, if that's your worry. that said; yes the brakes are unsafe. leave plenty of room in front of you, even at highway speeds. reason being, the average econobox can stop in less distance than you, and you'll be wedged underneath. your brakes are of inferior grade. it only gets worse when the parts heat up from use. if lotus learned anything from racing, they didn't apply it to designing production cars. what a useless bunch they are. i'm planning on turning those fake side intakes on the sills into brake cooling ducts. still waiting for someone to give me detailed photos and measurements of the engine tray i'm missing, so i can get fabricating.
cheers for that il look into drilled and groved discs how exactly do you do a vacum test. i dont supposed it helped the fact that after buying the car i drove a couple of hundred yards and the back brakes were on fire i thought id managed to snap a hand brake cable and seize the callipers at the same time after a lot of panicking i worked the handbrake out. Next problem anyway does any one know why my boost gauge wouldn,t work even though im getting boost
cross-eyed-twit said:
first sensible upgrade would be getting rid of the naff brakes, fitting braided hoses and some decent fluid. I got SJSportscars AP kit and some Ferodo pads. never looked back.
Woah woah woah!
Before he starts upgrading to AP this and Brembo that, he obviously needs to figure out whether the brakes are operating normally (for an Esprit) or defective.
As I said do some diagnostics first.
1) check for a vacuum leak, use a brake bleeder tool with vacuum gauge to splice into the system and look for leaks.
2)if you brake pedal is hard without really slowing you down, then maybe the vacuum pump isn't working. with the vacuum gauge attached, check to see how much the vacuum pump makes at idle.
3)the vacuum pumps are known to die, you'll usually hear a squeak like a goose. replace pump with NAPA #64-1006 ~$100.
4)if there is vacuum, and no leaks, and the pedal is hard, then check that the booster is working.
5)if the pedal is soft and squishy, then rebuild the master cylinder.
6) check for general leaks at the lines or calipers
7) soft pedal? bleed fluid.
8) all above is ok, replace pads and discs, maybe with something much better.
if your discs are on fire, the handbrake was mis-adjusted, I'm sure the pads are glazed, rotors might be ruined too. Fix the parking brake.
sorry about the handbrake incident. he's right about your your needing new pads beacuse of it. maybe you already changed them. but the rear brakes barely contribute to everyday braking, so you still won't like the brakes after the pad replacement. start shopping for upgrades, because i started last year, and still can't decide what to do. i wish there were more unbiased detailed reviews from people who bought and installed the available kits. hint,hint.
teigan said:
sorry about the handbrake incident. he's right about your your needing new pads beacuse of it. maybe you already changed them. but the rear brakes barely contribute to everyday braking, so you still won't like the brakes after the pad replacement. start shopping for upgrades, because i started last year, and still can't decide what to do. i wish there were more unbiased detailed reviews from people who bought and installed the available kits. hint,hint.
I agree that he will probably eventually want to upgrade... But it would be a big disappointment to spend $3000 and then still have no brakes because of a dead vacuum pump (seen it happen many times on Esprits)
Personally I went with these
here's some pics of the old front rotor ontop of my new rotor
Slight difference there.
The new ones are 328mm x 35mm front (72 vane) and 313mm x 25.4mm rear rotors.
The calipers are monoblock aluminum with 4 vented titanium pistons in the front, and 4 piston (2-piece) calipers with vented titanium piston aluminum in the rear.
Edited by lotusse89 on Wednesday 21st June 01:16
I went a slightly different route than Lotusse89,
www.lotusespritworld.com/EOwners/DomBenfall.html
Mine is only the fronts and they are AP with slightly larger discs (rotors) and braided hoses and Ferodo pads. Its all listed on the link but I had to machine the brackets 1mm to align them correctly, cost me a bottle of Merlot... or was is Chiraz, can't remember.
Anyway, the link shows my heat damaged disc and rusty mess that was the TMC brakes. The right hand one was binding and got very hot, wore down the pad (Greenstuff) twice as fast and made for crap driving. Now i have proper AP approved Ferodo DS2500 pads with the AP setup (they supply these with their kits) and the stopping is vastly improved. Also, changing pads is a lot easier with this caliper as I expect it will be with the Brembo.
To upgrade the rears I expect I will just put better pads in, at the mo I have Greenstuff but I really don't rate these for any spirited driving, normal pootling they're ok but they faded and were naff when they were on the front. good pads, fluid in braided hoses is a good start. Oh, and if there is a vacuum leak might be an idea to fix that first
If you have a grand and a half lying around you could get several kits i expect, PNM do an upgrade as do SJ but I am more than happy with mine, for example i run Dunlop D01J semi slicks (235 section) on the front and on track they skid and squeel before the brakes fade which is saying something, I think.
Hope it helps.
CET
www.lotusespritworld.com/EOwners/DomBenfall.html
Mine is only the fronts and they are AP with slightly larger discs (rotors) and braided hoses and Ferodo pads. Its all listed on the link but I had to machine the brackets 1mm to align them correctly, cost me a bottle of Merlot... or was is Chiraz, can't remember.
Anyway, the link shows my heat damaged disc and rusty mess that was the TMC brakes. The right hand one was binding and got very hot, wore down the pad (Greenstuff) twice as fast and made for crap driving. Now i have proper AP approved Ferodo DS2500 pads with the AP setup (they supply these with their kits) and the stopping is vastly improved. Also, changing pads is a lot easier with this caliper as I expect it will be with the Brembo.
To upgrade the rears I expect I will just put better pads in, at the mo I have Greenstuff but I really don't rate these for any spirited driving, normal pootling they're ok but they faded and were naff when they were on the front. good pads, fluid in braided hoses is a good start. Oh, and if there is a vacuum leak might be an idea to fix that first
If you have a grand and a half lying around you could get several kits i expect, PNM do an upgrade as do SJ but I am more than happy with mine, for example i run Dunlop D01J semi slicks (235 section) on the front and on track they skid and squeel before the brakes fade which is saying something, I think.
Hope it helps.
CET
I was working for AP in the 1980s when I bought my Esprit. No antilock (of course) but the brakes were pretty good. Don't forget many of the latest road cars (especially Mercs) have "brake assist" which slams the brakes on harder then the driver's foot pressure, based on the velocity with which the pedal is first pressed. Drivers often don't push the pedal hard enough to get best use out of their brakes. (This matters even more when you have a powerful ABS computer ready and waiting to modulate each of your 4 brakes simultaneously). So the simple question is, "Are you pressing the pedal hard enough?".
Equally well braking technology has moved on a long way in 20 years. Esprit is a road car, not a track car, and a track session will fry most road car brakes in no time flat. Hence the enthusiasm of Porsche owners to spend £5k+ on the ceramic brake option. Make sure you're using your existing brakes to the full; and if they still aren't cutting it - replace them. [Which will, of course, then highlight the inadequacies of your road car suspension.....] Remember, the weight of a car doesn't just affect acceleration; it also kills the brakes.
Equally well braking technology has moved on a long way in 20 years. Esprit is a road car, not a track car, and a track session will fry most road car brakes in no time flat. Hence the enthusiasm of Porsche owners to spend £5k+ on the ceramic brake option. Make sure you're using your existing brakes to the full; and if they still aren't cutting it - replace them. [Which will, of course, then highlight the inadequacies of your road car suspension.....] Remember, the weight of a car doesn't just affect acceleration; it also kills the brakes.
Gazboy said:
Dummy alert! I've got a stupid question.
Would I be right thinking that the 89SE doesn't have power assisted brakes?
My MR2T had a very similar brake set up to the mkiii Supra which I believe are the brakes used on the Esprit SE. I drove both the Esprit and the MR2 back to back and the difference in braking feel was phenomenal, despite not being an actual difference in caperbility of the brakes themselves. The Esprit pedals felt like you were trying to compress a brick. Maybe you aren't used to unservo'd brakes (like I was)?
Hope it works out ok for you
Would I be right thinking that the 89SE doesn't have power assisted brakes?
My MR2T had a very similar brake set up to the mkiii Supra which I believe are the brakes used on the Esprit SE. I drove both the Esprit and the MR2 back to back and the difference in braking feel was phenomenal, despite not being an actual difference in caperbility of the brakes themselves. The Esprit pedals felt like you were trying to compress a brick. Maybe you aren't used to unservo'd brakes (like I was)?
Hope it works out ok for you
Yes the Esprit (including the 89SE) has power assisted brakes, hence the vacuum pump. The vacuum pumps primary use is to power the vacuum booster for the brakes. The pedal feel has more to do with the master cylinder used.
Gassing Station | Esprit | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff