THE NINJA OF SUPERCARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Discussion
IM SO DAMM TIRED OF PEOPLE INSULTING THE GREATEST SUPERCAR OF ALL TIME!!!!!!!!!!!LOOK...I WAS GLAD THAT TOP GEAR FINALLY DID A PIECE ON THE ESPRIT...BUT IN ALL ACTUALLITY THE SHOW TURNED OUT TO BE A PIECE OF CRAP!!!!YES I WAS NOT TOO FOND OF IT...FIRST OF ALL WHY IN THE HELL DO WE HAV TO GET JEREMY CLARKSON??????GEEZ....TIFF NEEDLE WOULD HAV STOLE THE CROWD IF HE WAS DRIVING THE ESPRIT....CLARKSON COULDNT EVEN DRIVE THE CAR(HE WAS ALL OVER THE PLACE)...HIS DRIVING SUXXX(CLARKSON)....I'VE WAITED FOR SOOO LONG FOR THEM TO DO THE SHOW ABOUT MY CAR AND WHAT DO THEY DO WHEN THEY GET THE CHANCE ......(F---K IT UUUP!!!). THE ESPRIT WILL TOTALLY KILL MOST OF THE SO-CALLED EXOTIC CARS OUT TODAY..IM TIRED OF HEARING ABOUT THE BMW M3,FERRARI 360,MASERATI SPYDER,BMW M5,AND THE LIST GOES ON AND ON.THE ESPRIT WILL TOTALLY SPANK THE LIVING TAR OUT OF EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THESE CARS THAT I JUS MENTIONED.PEOPLE ALSO SAY THE ESPRIT IS UGLY. WHAT THE HELL, IF THEY SAW AN ESPRIT IN REAL LIFE INSTEAD OF A PICTURE I GUARANTEE THEY WONT TAKE THEIR EYES OFF OF IT.PICTURES R SO DECEIVING I CANT STAND IT ANYMORE,WHEN R THEY GOING TO GIV THE ESPRIT THE LOVE AND RESPECT AND PUBLICITY THAT IT SOOO DESPRATELY DESERVES.THE ESPRIT IS THE TRUE STREET EXOTIC RACE CAR.(PERIOD)THE GREATEST RACE CAR DRIVERS DROVE FOR LOTUS BACK IN THE DAY.SENNA,FITTIPALDI,ANDRETTI AND THE LIST GOES ON.I WILL CLOSE WITH THIS.U R BEYOND THE PROPAGANDA LINGERING THE PRANCING HORSE
NO NEED TO SHOUT!!!! 
H.A.,
Tone it down a touch. The fact is, the Lotus Esprit is not that popular a car on the Exotic scene.
I know, I know, now before someone promotes my name to the Lotus Excommunication Board, that is not to say that they don't have a loyal, near-fanatic following. But, the car lacks the notoriety it truely deserves primarily from three things:
1. Lotus doesn't go racing! People live vicariously through the exploits of Factory racing efforts from Porsche and Ferrari. Owners like to think that they are taking the 'Casino Turn' in Monaco when they take a hot corner in their 360 or 550. Like it or not 'Schumy' drives sales.
2. Lotus merely cleverly packages existing technologies together in innovative ways to achieve 'go fast', especially in the Esprit-no proprietary cutting edge stuff here, mostly off the shelf components.
Porsche, Ferrari, Aston, Lambo and others spend much more bringing cutting edge technology to the Sales Floor such as AWD, Paddle Shift gearboxes, complex large displacement engines which idle smoother than your Mother's Honda. For a marque which in the '50's, 60's & 70's was known as an innovator, they certainly seem to have lost their way (Are you listening Colin..??).
3. Poor design. Other Exotic marques use leading Design Houses, Ital Design, Pinanfarina, Bertone and the like to produce their designs. Not only do they get more eye appeallng designs than the in-house staff in Hethel, but these cars also gain from the reputation of the Design Houses themselves.
IMHO, Lotus made a big mistake when they left G. Guigiaro and had Peter Stevens smooth out his angles. Many like the result, but visually, it's confusing, many SE owners I know have had their car mistaken for Toyota Supras The 'G' model exhibits true pureness of design, proper proportion, good cut lines (dispite the fact that it is the reincarnation of the Maserati Boomerang, a 1969 one-off by Guigiaro which never went into production). Granted, it has acquired a dated look, but it's still a stunning design which stops people much more than the Stevens car. People may not know what it is at first glance, but they recognize it as something special. Enough, anyway, to stop, take it all in and to satisfy their curiosity must find out what it is (I have a friend with an excellent SE model, but when we're off motoring together, tearing up the 'Hinterlands', it seems that my '85 'G' model gets more attention. The 'S' model, as I have said, is akin to changing the dress on the Mona Lisa, you can change the Dress, but the creator is still very much Da Vinci!
What Lotus should do is contract with an International Design House to come up with a visual statement most people can appreciate. Bertone did a one-off design of the Esprit for the 1991 Geneva Auto Show, that was so incredibly well designed, had it been produced, it would still be cutting edge today (see pictures in Vol. XV, Number 5 of the Robb Report-May 1991). In fact, had Lotus used this design, they wouldn't be able to ship them out of Hethel fast enough. And, before anyone points out that the Esprit is a limited production model, do you really think that this is by design? It's limited by Market Acceptance. Why would Lotus, or any other manufacturer limit it's sales possibilities? On the contrary, Lotus would love to be able to grind them out like 'Link Sausages' such as the guys in Stuttgart are doing. They just haven't figured out how to generate that much demand as of yet. Happy Motoring Jim '85TE
Tone it down a touch. The fact is, the Lotus Esprit is not that popular a car on the Exotic scene.
I know, I know, now before someone promotes my name to the Lotus Excommunication Board, that is not to say that they don't have a loyal, near-fanatic following. But, the car lacks the notoriety it truely deserves primarily from three things:
1. Lotus doesn't go racing! People live vicariously through the exploits of Factory racing efforts from Porsche and Ferrari. Owners like to think that they are taking the 'Casino Turn' in Monaco when they take a hot corner in their 360 or 550. Like it or not 'Schumy' drives sales.
2. Lotus merely cleverly packages existing technologies together in innovative ways to achieve 'go fast', especially in the Esprit-no proprietary cutting edge stuff here, mostly off the shelf components.
Porsche, Ferrari, Aston, Lambo and others spend much more bringing cutting edge technology to the Sales Floor such as AWD, Paddle Shift gearboxes, complex large displacement engines which idle smoother than your Mother's Honda. For a marque which in the '50's, 60's & 70's was known as an innovator, they certainly seem to have lost their way (Are you listening Colin..??).
3. Poor design. Other Exotic marques use leading Design Houses, Ital Design, Pinanfarina, Bertone and the like to produce their designs. Not only do they get more eye appeallng designs than the in-house staff in Hethel, but these cars also gain from the reputation of the Design Houses themselves.
IMHO, Lotus made a big mistake when they left G. Guigiaro and had Peter Stevens smooth out his angles. Many like the result, but visually, it's confusing, many SE owners I know have had their car mistaken for Toyota Supras The 'G' model exhibits true pureness of design, proper proportion, good cut lines (dispite the fact that it is the reincarnation of the Maserati Boomerang, a 1969 one-off by Guigiaro which never went into production). Granted, it has acquired a dated look, but it's still a stunning design which stops people much more than the Stevens car. People may not know what it is at first glance, but they recognize it as something special. Enough, anyway, to stop, take it all in and to satisfy their curiosity must find out what it is (I have a friend with an excellent SE model, but when we're off motoring together, tearing up the 'Hinterlands', it seems that my '85 'G' model gets more attention. The 'S' model, as I have said, is akin to changing the dress on the Mona Lisa, you can change the Dress, but the creator is still very much Da Vinci!
What Lotus should do is contract with an International Design House to come up with a visual statement most people can appreciate. Bertone did a one-off design of the Esprit for the 1991 Geneva Auto Show, that was so incredibly well designed, had it been produced, it would still be cutting edge today (see pictures in Vol. XV, Number 5 of the Robb Report-May 1991). In fact, had Lotus used this design, they wouldn't be able to ship them out of Hethel fast enough. And, before anyone points out that the Esprit is a limited production model, do you really think that this is by design? It's limited by Market Acceptance. Why would Lotus, or any other manufacturer limit it's sales possibilities? On the contrary, Lotus would love to be able to grind them out like 'Link Sausages' such as the guys in Stuttgart are doing. They just haven't figured out how to generate that much demand as of yet. Happy Motoring Jim '85TE
I'm sorry Lotusguy but I really couldn't be arsed to read your whole post, way to long for me as usual.
Just happens I saw the right bit straight away.
This is utter, utter $4!t3.
Where do you think the design came from in the first place?
Colin Chapman commisioned an Italian, Giogetto Giguaro of later Italdesign fame, to pen the original lines of the Esprit.
Obviously, as if often the case, some of the purity was lost in productionisation (read making suitable for litigious US market).
When the design was updated in '88, the revamp was done by none other than Peter Stevens whoes other notable works include: Maclaren F1, MG ZR, S and T, Parts of the previous prodrive Impreza, the Lotus Elan ('88 to '92) and I think the Jaguars XJR15 and XJ220.
'nuff said.
Mouse.
Just happens I saw the right bit straight away.
Lotusguy said. Poor design. Other Exotic marques use leading Design Houses, Ital Design, Pinanfarina, Bertone and the like to produce their designs.
This is utter, utter $4!t3.
Where do you think the design came from in the first place?
Colin Chapman commisioned an Italian, Giogetto Giguaro of later Italdesign fame, to pen the original lines of the Esprit.
Obviously, as if often the case, some of the purity was lost in productionisation (read making suitable for litigious US market).
When the design was updated in '88, the revamp was done by none other than Peter Stevens whoes other notable works include: Maclaren F1, MG ZR, S and T, Parts of the previous prodrive Impreza, the Lotus Elan ('88 to '92) and I think the Jaguars XJR15 and XJ220.
'nuff said.
Mouse.
Petrolted - Thanks for saying what I was thinking, but didn't feel ready to say on this particular board.
Lotusguy & DM - Good to see a bit of proper debate going on here rather than loud mouthed bullshit.
AJL - I don't feel us porkerphiles should lower ourselves to dealing with a so called fan of a marque who feels the need to consider adding a feckin spoiler kit and thus barstewardising the lines of an Esprit.
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?f=17&h=0&t=27294
Horses Azz - I can't be bothered, other than to say lower case is easier to read. Of course this only matters if you actually want others to read what you're writing!
DAZ
Renault gearboxes. Lifes a bitch Huh!
PS - HA, if you heed Petrolteds advice you'll find a lot of great people on this site with a lot of knowledge and great debates.
>> Edited by dazren on Friday 24th January 17:35
Lotusguy & DM - Good to see a bit of proper debate going on here rather than loud mouthed bullshit.
AJL - I don't feel us porkerphiles should lower ourselves to dealing with a so called fan of a marque who feels the need to consider adding a feckin spoiler kit and thus barstewardising the lines of an Esprit.
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?f=17&h=0&t=27294
Horses Azz - I can't be bothered, other than to say lower case is easier to read. Of course this only matters if you actually want others to read what you're writing!
DAZ
Renault gearboxes. Lifes a bitch Huh!
PS - HA, if you heed Petrolteds advice you'll find a lot of great people on this site with a lot of knowledge and great debates.
>> Edited by dazren on Friday 24th January 17:35
lotusguy said:
1. Lotus doesn't go racing!
Sorry Jim, although you're right in that Lotus are not 2003 F1 entrants, thats not to say they don't have racing heritage:
Number of Race: 1027
Wins: 73
Pole Position: 102
Podiums: 164
Points Accumulated: 1410 Points
You may have heard of some of the drivers: Mario Andretti, Jim Clark, Nigel Mansell, Ronnie Peterson, Johnny Herbert, Graham Hill, Ayrton Senna, Emmerson Fittipaldi and Mikka Hakkinen? There are probably some others too i've forgotten... Six world drivers championships? Thats more than Porsche, Aston and Lamborghini added together.
lotusguy said:
2. Lotus merely cleverly packages existing technologies together in innovative ways to achieve 'go fast'...
Er, wrong again Jim i'm afraid. Lotus were not only at the forefront in their racing exploits (ground effects, active ride etc) but they also are still at the cutting edge of road car design. Most of the work they do actually finds its way into other manufacturer's products, rather than lotus's own cars.
You're right that the esprit does not have much in the way of state of the art technology, but it is more than 20 years old now!
If you want to see what technologies lotus developed before anyone else.. take a look at the SID car from the early nineties. 4four-wheel drive, four-wheel steering, active ride and monocoque construction:
www.lotusespritworld.co.uk/EOtherstuff/sid.html
Also, the paddle change developed around the same time:
www.lotusespritworld.co.uk/EOtherstuff/touchgo.html
Rob
I've always been facinated by the Esprit's various evolutions in the styling.
My brother had 3, and each was very different emotionally to me when I looked at them. Strange when the same shape was there, but I went from thinking my brothers went from "nice, clean, understated" on the SE, through angry and dramatic on the S4S.
The V8 for me was all a bit too "scoopy", but the final one was actually quite nice. The first was just a classic (although very "70's" looking nowadays), I think there was a bit of a stumble between the S2 and S3 that was finally rectified with the Turbo and TurboHC.
In a way it's been the same with the 911 - some have really done it for me, other not so (the "picnic table" version really has to be my least favourite).
I can't agree that a decent shape requires a "famous" hand to pen it though, whilst many may not agree, my Noble I think captures a lot of "supercar" about it. Also, whilst I think the Elise MKII is a bit of a dogs dinner, remember that many others have produced quite a few howlers themselves (including the odd Ferrari).
As for Lotus not bringing technology in and using "standard parts" - it is only just recently, with Ford money, that Aston has abandond it's use of the Ford Escort parts bin, and the Esprit has never ever been in a price bracket that would allow things such as paddle gear changes, AWD!
As for "complex large displacement engines which idle smoother than your Mother's Honda" - you've not been in a V8 then? Also, remember most of AM's engineering (until they fell out with each other) was done by Lotus, as well as most other marques complex engines. How exactly do you know that Porsche hasn't used Lotus Engineering????
No racing? Oh please! Remember that Chapman always saw the cars as a way of financing his racing efforts. Sure, it's lost it's way recently, but I haven't seen many AM's running around circuits!
In the end looks are such a personal taste, but I do think there is "something" that makes or breaks a car's design, but I'm not quite sure!
Fantastic Pub topic though "what makes a good car a great supercar"
J
My brother had 3, and each was very different emotionally to me when I looked at them. Strange when the same shape was there, but I went from thinking my brothers went from "nice, clean, understated" on the SE, through angry and dramatic on the S4S.
The V8 for me was all a bit too "scoopy", but the final one was actually quite nice. The first was just a classic (although very "70's" looking nowadays), I think there was a bit of a stumble between the S2 and S3 that was finally rectified with the Turbo and TurboHC.
In a way it's been the same with the 911 - some have really done it for me, other not so (the "picnic table" version really has to be my least favourite).
I can't agree that a decent shape requires a "famous" hand to pen it though, whilst many may not agree, my Noble I think captures a lot of "supercar" about it. Also, whilst I think the Elise MKII is a bit of a dogs dinner, remember that many others have produced quite a few howlers themselves (including the odd Ferrari).
As for Lotus not bringing technology in and using "standard parts" - it is only just recently, with Ford money, that Aston has abandond it's use of the Ford Escort parts bin, and the Esprit has never ever been in a price bracket that would allow things such as paddle gear changes, AWD!
As for "complex large displacement engines which idle smoother than your Mother's Honda" - you've not been in a V8 then? Also, remember most of AM's engineering (until they fell out with each other) was done by Lotus, as well as most other marques complex engines. How exactly do you know that Porsche hasn't used Lotus Engineering????
No racing? Oh please! Remember that Chapman always saw the cars as a way of financing his racing efforts. Sure, it's lost it's way recently, but I haven't seen many AM's running around circuits!
In the end looks are such a personal taste, but I do think there is "something" that makes or breaks a car's design, but I'm not quite sure!
Fantastic Pub topic though "what makes a good car a great supercar"
J
Jim - insightful as usual.
I fell in love with the Esprit in For Your Eyes Only. However, I equally fell in love at first sight with my '98 V8.
I am cautiously optomistic about the future of the Esprit. I think after a two or three year sabattical, Lotus (with Proton backing) will turn out a worthy successor to the name. Better still, I believe it will be a "world car" and will probably be built to the tune of at least 1000 copies per year.
The future will unfold as it shall. However, untill then, I count myself lucky to be an owner of one of the few...
ErnestM
I fell in love with the Esprit in For Your Eyes Only. However, I equally fell in love at first sight with my '98 V8.
I am cautiously optomistic about the future of the Esprit. I think after a two or three year sabattical, Lotus (with Proton backing) will turn out a worthy successor to the name. Better still, I believe it will be a "world car" and will probably be built to the tune of at least 1000 copies per year.
The future will unfold as it shall. However, untill then, I count myself lucky to be an owner of one of the few...
ErnestM
Non owner, eh?
IM SO DAMM TIRED OF PEOPLE INSULTING THE GREATEST SUPERCAR OF ALL TIME!!!!!!!!
Except that a similarly driven Corvette Z06 will stomp flat any Esprit on a race course.
THE ESPRIT IS THE TRUE STREET EXOTIC RACE CAR.(PERIOD)
Doesn't make me like my S4s any less to accept that it's not God's gift to cardom. Even without a bodykit.
Hi all,
I knew when I posted my remarks that I would shake a few fanatics out of the trees. I even said "...that is not to say that they don't have a loyal, near-fanatic following. But, the car lacks the notoriety it truely deserves..."
Lest anyone get the wrong impression, I am a big fan of Lotus cars having owned them off and on for 20 years. But, Lotus problem isn't capturing my loyalty, or yours, it's problem is that it has succeeded in capturing a very small minority of the public at large and specialty car owners in particular.
I stand by the reasons I stated in my earlier post as I was only echoing sentiments expressed to me by other car guys. And, I know you have all heard them too.
With regard to Innovations, Lotus may have done a great deal of design work for other companies, but what good is that if they don't incorporate this into their own designs? I am fully aware of the advances they have made in handling, downforce etc., but how long can they expect to live off these past successes? Cadillac developed the first electric starter, but it's hardly something they can hang their hat on today. I love the Esprit, and I cited Lotus innovation in packaging existing off the shelf technology into such a successful package. But to be a leader in the specialty car market, you have to produce your own innovations. And, Rob, as the topic is supercar definition, the mere fact that you excuse the Esprit's lack of innovation as a twenty year old design goes a long way to proving my point. I'm not flaming you Rob, I know how loyal a fan you are and I respect you for it. I am too.
With regard to Lotus racing heritage, again, it is long and distinguished. And, yes, Rob, I not only have heard of each of these drivers, but have had the pleasure to meet several of them personally. But, consider the fact that many, perhaps even the majority, of Lotus owners or potential future buyers were not even living the last time Lotus captured a Constructor's or Driver's Title and you'll realize that these past successes too, have faded in importance. They need a racing presence NOW...not 10, 25 or 30 years ago! Remember the old addage: "Win on Sunday...sell on Monday..."
As far as my comments on design, yes I am fully aware of Peter Stevens resume' on past cars, but the work he did on the Esprit cannot be considered a design outright as much as an adaptation of the Guigiaro design. And, judging from the confusion by the public at large, not a very successful one at that. You may like it, I think it's ok, but people confuse it with other designs, often the Toyota Supra! A real supercar is rarely mistaken for anything but what it is. The 'S' design is simply not distinguished enough. The Guigiaro badge which was once on the side of the Esprit garnered respect from the automotive community and helped sell cars! An equally distinct future design will do the same thing.
I am in no way anti-lotus, but I am also not blind to the foibles the car posesses and the things Lotus must do if it wants to capture the market with future designs. I appreciate fully the good things Lotus has done in the past, they have certainly 'milked' the Esprit for all it's worth (it's interesting to note that Ferrari, another limited manufacturer producing about 8,000 cars a year, is constantly introducing new designs). But, in the Big Money, Ever-Evolving, Highly Competitive, Exotic Car Market, if you standing still, you'll trail the pack and never get the recognition (in sales) that you deserve. Happy Motoring! Jim '85TE
I knew when I posted my remarks that I would shake a few fanatics out of the trees. I even said "...that is not to say that they don't have a loyal, near-fanatic following. But, the car lacks the notoriety it truely deserves..."
Lest anyone get the wrong impression, I am a big fan of Lotus cars having owned them off and on for 20 years. But, Lotus problem isn't capturing my loyalty, or yours, it's problem is that it has succeeded in capturing a very small minority of the public at large and specialty car owners in particular.
I stand by the reasons I stated in my earlier post as I was only echoing sentiments expressed to me by other car guys. And, I know you have all heard them too.
With regard to Innovations, Lotus may have done a great deal of design work for other companies, but what good is that if they don't incorporate this into their own designs? I am fully aware of the advances they have made in handling, downforce etc., but how long can they expect to live off these past successes? Cadillac developed the first electric starter, but it's hardly something they can hang their hat on today. I love the Esprit, and I cited Lotus innovation in packaging existing off the shelf technology into such a successful package. But to be a leader in the specialty car market, you have to produce your own innovations. And, Rob, as the topic is supercar definition, the mere fact that you excuse the Esprit's lack of innovation as a twenty year old design goes a long way to proving my point. I'm not flaming you Rob, I know how loyal a fan you are and I respect you for it. I am too.
With regard to Lotus racing heritage, again, it is long and distinguished. And, yes, Rob, I not only have heard of each of these drivers, but have had the pleasure to meet several of them personally. But, consider the fact that many, perhaps even the majority, of Lotus owners or potential future buyers were not even living the last time Lotus captured a Constructor's or Driver's Title and you'll realize that these past successes too, have faded in importance. They need a racing presence NOW...not 10, 25 or 30 years ago! Remember the old addage: "Win on Sunday...sell on Monday..."
As far as my comments on design, yes I am fully aware of Peter Stevens resume' on past cars, but the work he did on the Esprit cannot be considered a design outright as much as an adaptation of the Guigiaro design. And, judging from the confusion by the public at large, not a very successful one at that. You may like it, I think it's ok, but people confuse it with other designs, often the Toyota Supra! A real supercar is rarely mistaken for anything but what it is. The 'S' design is simply not distinguished enough. The Guigiaro badge which was once on the side of the Esprit garnered respect from the automotive community and helped sell cars! An equally distinct future design will do the same thing.
I am in no way anti-lotus, but I am also not blind to the foibles the car posesses and the things Lotus must do if it wants to capture the market with future designs. I appreciate fully the good things Lotus has done in the past, they have certainly 'milked' the Esprit for all it's worth (it's interesting to note that Ferrari, another limited manufacturer producing about 8,000 cars a year, is constantly introducing new designs). But, in the Big Money, Ever-Evolving, Highly Competitive, Exotic Car Market, if you standing still, you'll trail the pack and never get the recognition (in sales) that you deserve. Happy Motoring! Jim '85TE
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