Sporatic issue - any input welcomed!
Discussion
First, my car is a US spec 1988 turbo w/ the k-Jetronic fuel system...
The sporatic issue I am having is that (once the car is warmed up of course) when I start off in 1st there is a moment of hesitation before the car seems to "catch".
Then, also from time to time with little rhym or reason, I will get a sputter - in any gear when changing up or down. There is just a little power, but then the revs come up and I'm off like the wind...
The plugs read normal - little rusty/coppery in color just a hair to the "rich" side of things.
As stated in a past post... the fuel pump relays, filter, accumulator, and secondary pump are all new... as is the distributor cap, rotor, and coil, plugs and wires.
However, as this is a sporatic issue I have decided that this is electrical in some way as dirty injectors etc... would seem to me to be a constant problem.
I am not sure what the "Fuel By Pass" relay does as far as what it talks to, but this is not a new relay. Does anyone think that this relay could be my problem? IE: If it were going bad what would the symptome be?
Thank you,
Drive topless!!!
Cameron
The sporatic issue I am having is that (once the car is warmed up of course) when I start off in 1st there is a moment of hesitation before the car seems to "catch".
Then, also from time to time with little rhym or reason, I will get a sputter - in any gear when changing up or down. There is just a little power, but then the revs come up and I'm off like the wind...
The plugs read normal - little rusty/coppery in color just a hair to the "rich" side of things.
As stated in a past post... the fuel pump relays, filter, accumulator, and secondary pump are all new... as is the distributor cap, rotor, and coil, plugs and wires.
However, as this is a sporatic issue I have decided that this is electrical in some way as dirty injectors etc... would seem to me to be a constant problem.
I am not sure what the "Fuel By Pass" relay does as far as what it talks to, but this is not a new relay. Does anyone think that this relay could be my problem? IE: If it were going bad what would the symptome be?
Thank you,
Drive topless!!!
Cameron
typically a relay will either stick open or stick closed. it won't cause an intermittent stutter. my '84 car does what yours does but only on rainy days, so we probably both have spark related issues. i swapped to all new parts in the ignition chain, and still have the same problems.
My bet would be on a throttle sensor that has a dead spot......you need to test the throttle sensor with an ohm meter and check for smooth resistance. If there is any spot where the resistance jumps abruptly or goes open, you have your culprit. Typically bad throttle sensors will exhibit hesitation, stumble, or bad idle(if the dead spot is down low). Most throttle sensor have three wires....a reference voltage wire (at usually 5V on most cars), a ground wire, and the signal wire to the ecu. You would ohm check the ground and ecu wire. Best done with the sensor disconnected from the car's ECU, and if you have an analog meter, it makes it easier to check for smooth resistance.
Thanks for the input!
I have a new TPS ordered and I have pulled my injectors and cleaned them really well... I have also gone ahead and ordered the speed sensing module that is prob. not the issue - but is old just the same. I am not sure that my TPS is bad either as on the K-Jetronick system the TPS seems to indicate when the throttle is closed or open more than a crack... as indicated by the arrangement of the points etc... inside the TPS. But, like the speed sensor module it is also original and old.
I am currently trying to locate any info re. a failing primary pressure regulator on the the jetronic fuel dist. unit...
More later...
Drive topless!!!
Cameron
I have a new TPS ordered and I have pulled my injectors and cleaned them really well... I have also gone ahead and ordered the speed sensing module that is prob. not the issue - but is old just the same. I am not sure that my TPS is bad either as on the K-Jetronick system the TPS seems to indicate when the throttle is closed or open more than a crack... as indicated by the arrangement of the points etc... inside the TPS. But, like the speed sensor module it is also original and old.
I am currently trying to locate any info re. a failing primary pressure regulator on the the jetronic fuel dist. unit...
More later...
Drive topless!!!
Cameron
Actually, I am on a quest to find a place where people know how to drive... I will prob. locate the actual Holy Grail before I find this mythical "drivers" place.
Orlando is NOT it. Could have been once... but now all thise Mass. tags.... Tampa is only better at certain times of the day!
Drive topless!!!
Cameron
BTW... tangled with that air pump yet...
Orlando is NOT it. Could have been once... but now all thise Mass. tags.... Tampa is only better at certain times of the day!
Drive topless!!!
Cameron
BTW... tangled with that air pump yet...
Okay... replaced the TPS (and the speed sensor for the hell of it). The ECON light is def more consistant now... I am sure that the TPS was getting tired after the years. The low fuel pressure issue is still a prob. under throttle as I expected and I have a new frequency valve on the way... I have noticed a lesser degree of "Cricket chirp" from the fuel dist unit area (a normal sound for a frequency valve operating correctly) and Saturday I think the thing finally crapped out all the way.
On to Saturday... what would I do without my Esprit on a Saturday?
Drive topless!!!
Cameron
On to Saturday... what would I do without my Esprit on a Saturday?
Drive topless!!!
Cameron
Take off the Air Box that houses your Air Filter and check the Air Flap on top of the Injection Box (Big Round Metal Disc) for Sticking.
You might also want to check inside the Box (beneath the Flap) for Fuel, which would indicate a Leaking Fuel Distribution Block.
If you need any parts, I have em.
When was the last time you had the Injection set up?...
>> Edited by deecee on Tuesday 25th April 01:14
You might also want to check inside the Box (beneath the Flap) for Fuel, which would indicate a Leaking Fuel Distribution Block.
If you need any parts, I have em.
When was the last time you had the Injection set up?...
>> Edited by deecee on Tuesday 25th April 01:14
That would suck... I def do not want to get into the fuel dist unit. I would prob send it off. Being German in origin, I would bet that it is way over complicated on the indide...
I cannot seem to locate a good diagram of the unit in the Lotus. Volvo, Porsche, Deloran... they do not seem to be the same. For starters, the flap "pushes" up in the Volvo diagram and not down...
However, Thanks for the idea. I will pull the hose to the turbo and the fuel by pass hose and check for any fuel. I should get the time to put the new frequency valve in Saturday and I'll post the results. If it does not correct the issue, I should at least get the "cricket" chirping sound back at the dist unit!
Drive topless!!!
Cameron
I cannot seem to locate a good diagram of the unit in the Lotus. Volvo, Porsche, Deloran... they do not seem to be the same. For starters, the flap "pushes" up in the Volvo diagram and not down...
However, Thanks for the idea. I will pull the hose to the turbo and the fuel by pass hose and check for any fuel. I should get the time to put the new frequency valve in Saturday and I'll post the results. If it does not correct the issue, I should at least get the "cricket" chirping sound back at the dist unit!
Drive topless!!!
Cameron
If there is no fuel in the box...a shot of WD40 to the base of the Arm that holds the Flap Valve will probably cure the sticking, but it sounds like the injection might need to be set up.
The injection system is Bosch K-Jetronic and any shop with Foreign Car...particularly Porsche...Experience would probably be able to do it in about 5 minutes.
The injection system is Bosch K-Jetronic and any shop with Foreign Car...particularly Porsche...Experience would probably be able to do it in about 5 minutes.
Well, got some time last night (unusual)... and I put the new frequency valve on. No change of course...
I usually have the throttle jacking unplugged and the hose blocked due to thte EBPV no longer being on the car, but for whatever reason I reconnected it up yesterday and noticed that it to -now- has no vacume at start up... so I guess I'll be tracking the vacume demons down - again - last time I found nothing... And I know the throttle jacking vacume was good when this fuel issue started...
Anyway, the plate in the fuel dist seems to move freely. There was no fuel in the lower area that I could find.
The TPS is new (was needed), the speed module is new, lambda sensor (O2) is new, vacume lines are in good shape as far I can see (no cracks etc...), frequency valve is new (and I think failing to get the signal from the lamda sensor?).
So, I just need some time to really sort the vacume issue and try to id what is failing... It occurs to me that the vacume advance on the distributor may not be doing what it should if the throttle jacking is not doing its thing correctly...
I know the "ECM" is not exactly a computer as in an EFI car, but is there any way of testing it other than put in a new one?
Drive topless!!!
Cameron
>> Edited by Autocross7 on Thursday 27th April 15:40
I usually have the throttle jacking unplugged and the hose blocked due to thte EBPV no longer being on the car, but for whatever reason I reconnected it up yesterday and noticed that it to -now- has no vacume at start up... so I guess I'll be tracking the vacume demons down - again - last time I found nothing... And I know the throttle jacking vacume was good when this fuel issue started...
Anyway, the plate in the fuel dist seems to move freely. There was no fuel in the lower area that I could find.
The TPS is new (was needed), the speed module is new, lambda sensor (O2) is new, vacume lines are in good shape as far I can see (no cracks etc...), frequency valve is new (and I think failing to get the signal from the lamda sensor?).
So, I just need some time to really sort the vacume issue and try to id what is failing... It occurs to me that the vacume advance on the distributor may not be doing what it should if the throttle jacking is not doing its thing correctly...
I know the "ECM" is not exactly a computer as in an EFI car, but is there any way of testing it other than put in a new one?
Drive topless!!!
Cameron
>> Edited by Autocross7 on Thursday 27th April 15:40
The Mechanical Vacuum Pump is located at the Front Bottom Left Corner of the motor, beneath the Exhaust Manifold.
The Vacuum Line leaves the Pump and goes to a Tee, located between the Front of the motor and the Rear of the Tunnel.
One Line of the Tee goes to the Instrument Panel, the other to the motor.
If its the Vacuum Pump, it Cross References to General Motors.
The Vacuum Line leaves the Pump and goes to a Tee, located between the Front of the motor and the Rear of the Tunnel.
One Line of the Tee goes to the Instrument Panel, the other to the motor.
If its the Vacuum Pump, it Cross References to General Motors.
Thanks for the idea/info... but the vacume pump is new. So, anyway, I am sitting yesterday afternoon with the "problem" going through my head - and I realized... it is def. not a vacume leak. If it was a vacume leak (even a small one) I could hear the vacume pump "running" (makes a sort of clicking sound when taxed - normal for a new pump).
So, unable to sit and watch TV or do any real work... I hit the garage. I pulled all the electrical connectors assoc. with the issue at hand. Warm up reg, TPS, Temp monitors, etc... and lightly sanded each prong - nothing to lose. Then I put it all back and started on the vacume lines. I know the throttle jacking is not pulling as it should, so I started there. Pulled the plate that holds the two vacume solinoids and the boost transducer out from under the rear butress corner...
...pulled the vacume lines one at a time at both ends, and shot some air through them. Pulled the little ground wire from the mounting plate and sanded it a little. Also, did the same with the yellow/white wire connected to the boost transduce (I am already there so why not?). Put it all back together.... and.... Varoom!!!!
Started up as it should and ran correctly during the warm up period. The frequency valve started buzzing (as it should) like a Cricket needing a date - bad. Took it for a short run and everything seemed fine. This AM before heading to the ofiice I ran it up the road and back... again (at the risk of a jinx) ran fine. Time will tell...
For now I'll call it British. Or... maybe she got wind of me turning my attention to another car? ALL Esprits are green on the inside. Stephen King could write about them!
Thank you all for ideas and thoughts... If it acts up again... I'll re-post and list what has been done 'cause I will def. be out of ideas!
Drive topless!!!
Cameron
So, unable to sit and watch TV or do any real work... I hit the garage. I pulled all the electrical connectors assoc. with the issue at hand. Warm up reg, TPS, Temp monitors, etc... and lightly sanded each prong - nothing to lose. Then I put it all back and started on the vacume lines. I know the throttle jacking is not pulling as it should, so I started there. Pulled the plate that holds the two vacume solinoids and the boost transducer out from under the rear butress corner...
...pulled the vacume lines one at a time at both ends, and shot some air through them. Pulled the little ground wire from the mounting plate and sanded it a little. Also, did the same with the yellow/white wire connected to the boost transduce (I am already there so why not?). Put it all back together.... and.... Varoom!!!!
Started up as it should and ran correctly during the warm up period. The frequency valve started buzzing (as it should) like a Cricket needing a date - bad. Took it for a short run and everything seemed fine. This AM before heading to the ofiice I ran it up the road and back... again (at the risk of a jinx) ran fine. Time will tell...
For now I'll call it British. Or... maybe she got wind of me turning my attention to another car? ALL Esprits are green on the inside. Stephen King could write about them!
Thank you all for ideas and thoughts... If it acts up again... I'll re-post and list what has been done 'cause I will def. be out of ideas!
Drive topless!!!
Cameron
I KNEEEEWWWWW if I posted the car was running well, it would act up again!!! Okay... I know this has got to be an electrical issue. The frequency valve (pressure regulator) is not getting a signal as it should. At the same time, the vacume solinoid that would pull vacume on the throttle jacking is not getting a signal. As I understand it, these two do not work in conjuction with each other, but the fact remains that they are not getting a signal....
I have re-checked each item (TPS, O2 sensor, high temp & low temp sensors, vacume solinoids, etc...) and they all have continuity.
I also put the multi meter on each connector (female side) and all of them also have continuity.
I think that these wires all lead back to the ECM??? and if the female side has continuity the current is passing through or to the ECM???
Anyway, I started the car for a bit again and the signals were sending as they should... then stopped... again... causing the frequency valve to no longer "work". As for the vacume to the throttle jacking - the car was warm so I am not sure if it got its signal or not.
Is there any way to test the ECM? As most everything is new and this is so sporatic... I am getting to the point that I think the ECM may be failing...
Thanks,
Cameron
>> Edited by Autocross7 on Saturday 29th April 17:43
>> Edited by Autocross7 on Saturday 29th April 17:46
>> Edited by Autocross7 on Saturday 29th April 20:08
Trouble Shooting the ECM is a Total Nightmare.
and those that are capable of doing it, are usually too busy going to Star Trek Conventions and such...
The easy way is to switch out your ECM with one that you know already works.
But it sounds like something is going on when the Injection System goes from Closed to Open Loop, and is supposed to be getting its info from the O2 Sensor.
As for the Throttle Jacking Capsule, is it operating when the motor is Cold and what Temperature is the motor dying at? (refer to Instruments)
Do you have a Shop Manual?
>> Edited by deecee on Sunday 30th April 16:02
and those that are capable of doing it, are usually too busy going to Star Trek Conventions and such...
The easy way is to switch out your ECM with one that you know already works.
But it sounds like something is going on when the Injection System goes from Closed to Open Loop, and is supposed to be getting its info from the O2 Sensor.
As for the Throttle Jacking Capsule, is it operating when the motor is Cold and what Temperature is the motor dying at? (refer to Instruments)
Do you have a Shop Manual?
>> Edited by deecee on Sunday 30th April 16:02
The motor runs fine at idle... throttle jacking was simply not getting vacume... I think, actually, the solinoid that would "que" the vacume was not getting power (a signal).
The "fuel issue" is def. from the fact that the frequency valve (regulates pressure in the fuel dist for anyone not familiar with K jetronic) is also simply not getting a signal.
So, on a whim that I cannot fully expalain, I put the multi meter on the battery. I came up with 11.2... I put the charger on it and brought it upto 12. When I started the car, everything worked. Again. The alternator/voltage regulator were rebuilt last summer - but the battery is at least two years old and... could have had some type of issues caused by the alternator before rebuild?
Dumb Question... Is it at least possible that a week or otherwise not up to par battery could cause this type of electrical issue? IE: It is possible that the battery is not getting fully charged or holding a full charge as it should even though the alternator is good... I am going to check the charge with the multi meter later to see if the charge held. There is nothing but the dash clock on all the time... no alarm system to drain the power...
Thanks,
Drive topless!!!
Cameron
The "fuel issue" is def. from the fact that the frequency valve (regulates pressure in the fuel dist for anyone not familiar with K jetronic) is also simply not getting a signal.
So, on a whim that I cannot fully expalain, I put the multi meter on the battery. I came up with 11.2... I put the charger on it and brought it upto 12. When I started the car, everything worked. Again. The alternator/voltage regulator were rebuilt last summer - but the battery is at least two years old and... could have had some type of issues caused by the alternator before rebuild?
Dumb Question... Is it at least possible that a week or otherwise not up to par battery could cause this type of electrical issue? IE: It is possible that the battery is not getting fully charged or holding a full charge as it should even though the alternator is good... I am going to check the charge with the multi meter later to see if the charge held. There is nothing but the dash clock on all the time... no alarm system to drain the power...
Thanks,
Drive topless!!!
Cameron
That is actually good to hear. I remember reading something about voltage being an issue with this system, but I (of course looking for it) could not find what it was that I read.
This AM before heading to the office, I checked the battery with a multi meter again... it was just touching 12v. Started the car and "everything" worked for a moment then the frequency valve stopped buzzing... with the car running, the battery only showed 11v on the multi meter (same once I stopped the motor).
Just to do it, I put the charger back on the battery to see what happens this afternoon. I expect the car will run fine w/ the charger just unhooked - the battery will have 12v for a short time. Then, as this time, the battery will drop voltage and the issue will present again. The Alternator/voltage regulator are new as stated, but the battery is not... Looks like I am on the path to getting a new battery....
Drive topless!!!
Cameron
This AM before heading to the office, I checked the battery with a multi meter again... it was just touching 12v. Started the car and "everything" worked for a moment then the frequency valve stopped buzzing... with the car running, the battery only showed 11v on the multi meter (same once I stopped the motor).
Just to do it, I put the charger back on the battery to see what happens this afternoon. I expect the car will run fine w/ the charger just unhooked - the battery will have 12v for a short time. Then, as this time, the battery will drop voltage and the issue will present again. The Alternator/voltage regulator are new as stated, but the battery is not... Looks like I am on the path to getting a new battery....
Drive topless!!!
Cameron
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