Air Conditioning Compressor Will Not Engage
Discussion
This is for a 1990 Turbo SE.
Well with the approaching summer I finally got around to installing a new AC switch (part no. M-6221-082) on the dash board. No real problems there as the knobs came off much easier than expected. Unfortunately, the compressor does not engage. It worked before the old switch went on the fritz. I've checked the fuses and the connections and all are tight and good. I haven’t checked the relays yet. The problem with the old switch was that it would spin either direction without ever clicking on. The air conditioning was not running during this time.
Did find a rather strange arrangement under the right side of the dash. The wiring from the switch ends in a four prong bayonet plug with yellow, black, brown and blue wires. The switch wire's plug is joined to receiver with corresponding wires; however, the blue and brown are reversed. Odd but since it worked for the 6 years prior I assume it is ok.
From the receiving plug, the yellow and brown wires run directly to a black box. The black and blue wires run to a plug having three round prongs with the blue wire spliced into a green one this plug joins to the wiring harness under the right hand dash. Coming off of the third prong of this plug are two wires one red the other white. Both the red and white wires, along with the black and green run to the black box. The black box is wrapped with electrical tape. I did find the following two lines of type on the black box: First line - CET-1211HA; second line - 000811A. Running from the black box are two white wires each having a black stripe. These wires end in another plug which joins to the wiring harness running back under the center of the dash to the left hand side.
Any suggestions as to the next step? If it makes a difference, the air temp was 7C (45F). I'm guessing I'm low on Freon but shouldn't the compressor clutch at least engage?
Also, could someone satisfy my curiosity as to the purpose of the black box? I told my wife it was a plant by the FBI to track this mysterious black car.
Well with the approaching summer I finally got around to installing a new AC switch (part no. M-6221-082) on the dash board. No real problems there as the knobs came off much easier than expected. Unfortunately, the compressor does not engage. It worked before the old switch went on the fritz. I've checked the fuses and the connections and all are tight and good. I haven’t checked the relays yet. The problem with the old switch was that it would spin either direction without ever clicking on. The air conditioning was not running during this time.
Did find a rather strange arrangement under the right side of the dash. The wiring from the switch ends in a four prong bayonet plug with yellow, black, brown and blue wires. The switch wire's plug is joined to receiver with corresponding wires; however, the blue and brown are reversed. Odd but since it worked for the 6 years prior I assume it is ok.
From the receiving plug, the yellow and brown wires run directly to a black box. The black and blue wires run to a plug having three round prongs with the blue wire spliced into a green one this plug joins to the wiring harness under the right hand dash. Coming off of the third prong of this plug are two wires one red the other white. Both the red and white wires, along with the black and green run to the black box. The black box is wrapped with electrical tape. I did find the following two lines of type on the black box: First line - CET-1211HA; second line - 000811A. Running from the black box are two white wires each having a black stripe. These wires end in another plug which joins to the wiring harness running back under the center of the dash to the left hand side.
Any suggestions as to the next step? If it makes a difference, the air temp was 7C (45F). I'm guessing I'm low on Freon but shouldn't the compressor clutch at least engage?
Also, could someone satisfy my curiosity as to the purpose of the black box? I told my wife it was a plant by the FBI to track this mysterious black car.
It does need to be running in order to fully charge the system. Just have the thermostat knob on full cold and the fan on high and start charging. The compressor will kick on once the coolant pressure reaches the minimum to override the low pressure switch cutout. This is all assuming the low freon level is your problem.
Also if you don't have the tools and/or R12 to charge it, any competent auto a/c shop can do it. There is nothing particularly unusual about the a/c system in our cars.
Jim
>> Edited by jk1 on Monday 20th March 00:13
Also if you don't have the tools and/or R12 to charge it, any competent auto a/c shop can do it. There is nothing particularly unusual about the a/c system in our cars.
Jim
>> Edited by jk1 on Monday 20th March 00:13
Thanks again,
I didn't realize that the clutch wouldn't engage at all if the system charge was too low. I've managed to charge my Jeep in the past but will probably let a shop handle this job. I have a few cans of freon but lack a pressure gauge. So, I can save some cash by supplying the R-12.
I didn't realize that the clutch wouldn't engage at all if the system charge was too low. I've managed to charge my Jeep in the past but will probably let a shop handle this job. I have a few cans of freon but lack a pressure gauge. So, I can save some cash by supplying the R-12.
Can you guys please please please try to remind everyone that charging up an empty system without finding the leak is a totally jackass thing to do? at least go to a shop that can add the dye and then go back in a week to find the leak.
I mean I do lots of bad things but this stuff is BANNED in every 1st world country for a reason.
SHEESH...
I mean I do lots of bad things but this stuff is BANNED in every 1st world country for a reason.
SHEESH...
Politics!
DuPont, the primary manufacturer of R-12, had no reason to oppose the switch. Therefore, the "science" behind the switch was never adequately challenged.
The science may or may not be correct but we will never know. With all the natural pollutants such as volcanic activity the atmosphere is too big of a test environment to accurately attribute cause and effect to any single change.
Cost is the primary reason for finding the leak. Interestingly enough the Lotus manual states something to the extent that a leak of a pound or so a year is to be expected.
DuPont, the primary manufacturer of R-12, had no reason to oppose the switch. Therefore, the "science" behind the switch was never adequately challenged.
The science may or may not be correct but we will never know. With all the natural pollutants such as volcanic activity the atmosphere is too big of a test environment to accurately attribute cause and effect to any single change.
Cost is the primary reason for finding the leak. Interestingly enough the Lotus manual states something to the extent that a leak of a pound or so a year is to be expected.
It is completely proven that R12 is damaging to the environment. Fer F's sake you are going to take the word from the producer of the stuff??????????? that is insane.
it is a totally ridiculous thing for an individual to personally challeng something that has been internationally mandated. What a "me me me", "american throw away society" BS thing to say. I dont want the - the "corporate world is corrupt" and "the russians did it" story here. spare me the crap. Try doing your part to help the environment. Because for sure we are all guilty of burning more than our share of gasoline already.
like they say if you are not part of the solution.....
it is a totally ridiculous thing for an individual to personally challeng something that has been internationally mandated. What a "me me me", "american throw away society" BS thing to say. I dont want the - the "corporate world is corrupt" and "the russians did it" story here. spare me the crap. Try doing your part to help the environment. Because for sure we are all guilty of burning more than our share of gasoline already.
like they say if you are not part of the solution.....
Mr. Bojangles - please take a deep breath and try to read with comprehension.
I said that DuPont, the producer of R-12, did NOT oppose the switch to the new material.
Think about it for a second, the manufacturer stood to make a significant amount of cash by replacing the current R-12 with the new material. Why would they oppose it? DuPont actually took a rather benign position for it so they could promote a "green" agenda.
I applaud the concern of the environmentalist but question their motives and scientific procedures. Heck, based on reports in 1978 we should be moving into the next ice age any day now.
I said that DuPont, the producer of R-12, did NOT oppose the switch to the new material.
Think about it for a second, the manufacturer stood to make a significant amount of cash by replacing the current R-12 with the new material. Why would they oppose it? DuPont actually took a rather benign position for it so they could promote a "green" agenda.
I applaud the concern of the environmentalist but question their motives and scientific procedures. Heck, based on reports in 1978 we should be moving into the next ice age any day now.
Dr. Hess,
As far as 1,1,1,2-tetrafluoroethane (r-134a) goes there wouldn't be a current patent on the composition of matter as it has been around for longer than 20yrs. At least when I put the compound name into my search tool I found several hits older than 1986. There could be some patents on the combination of R-134A with lubricants etc suitable for use in refrigerating systems.
There are likely a host of patents on improvements relating to the manufacture and handling of R-134a. I know that DuPont used the pilot plant facilities of its then subsidiary Conoco in Ponca City to develop its manufacturing process. Word from DuPont was that scale up from the pilot plant to commercial scale was the easiest of any process they had ever encountered.
I came across some interesting links and have added them if anyone is currently having trouble sleeping.
http://refrigerants.dupont.com/Suva/e
www.imcool.com/articles/aircondition/refrigerant_history.htm
www.refron.com/InfoCenter/TechData/Honeywell_Replacement_Guide.pdf
Regards,
Bill
As far as 1,1,1,2-tetrafluoroethane (r-134a) goes there wouldn't be a current patent on the composition of matter as it has been around for longer than 20yrs. At least when I put the compound name into my search tool I found several hits older than 1986. There could be some patents on the combination of R-134A with lubricants etc suitable for use in refrigerating systems.
There are likely a host of patents on improvements relating to the manufacture and handling of R-134a. I know that DuPont used the pilot plant facilities of its then subsidiary Conoco in Ponca City to develop its manufacturing process. Word from DuPont was that scale up from the pilot plant to commercial scale was the easiest of any process they had ever encountered.
I came across some interesting links and have added them if anyone is currently having trouble sleeping.
http://refrigerants.dupont.com/Suva/e
www.imcool.com/articles/aircondition/refrigerant_history.htm
www.refron.com/InfoCenter/TechData/Honeywell_Replacement_Guide.pdf
Regards,
Bill
Humm, Bill, maybe the correct question would be: Who held the patent on R-134A when R12 was deamonized? The patent may have expired today, but 20 years ago when the stuff was starting to be banned, I'm going to say Dupont had it.
Never forget that the Dupont brothers stepped off the ship to a million dollar gunpowder contract with the new US Government. They probably would have been killed had they stayed in France. A million dollars in the eighteenth century was some serious change.
Bojangles, thank you for not getting all-emotional on me here and instead switching to a personal attack. I can see from your argument technique that you are firmly in the Left. Switching to a personal attack is pretty much SOP in those circles as they lack any substantive argument.
Dr.Hess
Never forget that the Dupont brothers stepped off the ship to a million dollar gunpowder contract with the new US Government. They probably would have been killed had they stayed in France. A million dollars in the eighteenth century was some serious change.
Bojangles, thank you for not getting all-emotional on me here and instead switching to a personal attack. I can see from your argument technique that you are firmly in the Left. Switching to a personal attack is pretty much SOP in those circles as they lack any substantive argument.
Dr.Hess
Lets try to evaluate this another way.
The over all cost of filling a system with refrigerant is a few dollars. (OEM prices for a couple of pounds)
Weather the chemical company makes an extra buck or two per car is only a small piece of the puzzle.
Consider the thousands of engineering hours needed to redevelop the AC system for R134a?
Every part of the system was evaluated and most were changed. New larger condensors and evaporators were needed. This also caused suppliers to do extra work. On a per car cost the changes cost ten times the value of the refrigerant.
It was a VERY expensive change to mandate. And you think all this was done with no evidence and on a hunch? On top of that the new refrigerant does not even work as well as R12 did. With all this cost and no benefits, why did the industry not fight the change?
Even from a best guess situation, a responsible and intelligent person would have to assume there is some probability that air conditioning refrigerant has potential harmfull effects. Some of our elected officials who are sworn to make the best decisions for the public have decided that it is serious enough of a risk to make a new law. This does not happen just by chance.
In some places it is punishable in a court of law if you knowingly release this stuff. Other places it is not a crime. What should an intelligent person do? Can you honestly say that you think that the interaction of these gasses with our atmosphere was inconclusive? DO you believe the Kyoto accord is a waste? Why was every aerosol can propellant changed? These are all based on trying to reduce the damage to the atmosphere.
It is clearly demonstrated that Ozone is destroyed by the refrigerants. It is clearly demonstrated the Ozone helps block damaging sun rays. I just spend 6 months in the tropics where the ozone protection is good. I was in the sun all the time with sun screen on and never had a sunburn, then after just one day in New Zealand, with the same sun screen I was red like a lobster. This issue is quite real and the victims are humans.
What is the resistance to using this message board to encourage everyone to do the responsible thing?
Be honest here guys and girls........ if you just dont care say you dont care.. if you dont give a damn about the environment, say that is the reason. If you cant afford the cost of fixing the AC properly just say so. But please dont fight the issue technically.
The over all cost of filling a system with refrigerant is a few dollars. (OEM prices for a couple of pounds)
Weather the chemical company makes an extra buck or two per car is only a small piece of the puzzle.
Consider the thousands of engineering hours needed to redevelop the AC system for R134a?
Every part of the system was evaluated and most were changed. New larger condensors and evaporators were needed. This also caused suppliers to do extra work. On a per car cost the changes cost ten times the value of the refrigerant.
It was a VERY expensive change to mandate. And you think all this was done with no evidence and on a hunch? On top of that the new refrigerant does not even work as well as R12 did. With all this cost and no benefits, why did the industry not fight the change?
Even from a best guess situation, a responsible and intelligent person would have to assume there is some probability that air conditioning refrigerant has potential harmfull effects. Some of our elected officials who are sworn to make the best decisions for the public have decided that it is serious enough of a risk to make a new law. This does not happen just by chance.
In some places it is punishable in a court of law if you knowingly release this stuff. Other places it is not a crime. What should an intelligent person do? Can you honestly say that you think that the interaction of these gasses with our atmosphere was inconclusive? DO you believe the Kyoto accord is a waste? Why was every aerosol can propellant changed? These are all based on trying to reduce the damage to the atmosphere.
It is clearly demonstrated that Ozone is destroyed by the refrigerants. It is clearly demonstrated the Ozone helps block damaging sun rays. I just spend 6 months in the tropics where the ozone protection is good. I was in the sun all the time with sun screen on and never had a sunburn, then after just one day in New Zealand, with the same sun screen I was red like a lobster. This issue is quite real and the victims are humans.
What is the resistance to using this message board to encourage everyone to do the responsible thing?
Be honest here guys and girls........ if you just dont care say you dont care.. if you dont give a damn about the environment, say that is the reason. If you cant afford the cost of fixing the AC properly just say so. But please dont fight the issue technically.
bojangles said:
I have never let the grammar mistakes pass - if you want to have a technical discussion you need to use good communication. I am not left.. right does not mean licence to pollute either...
If we are going to have grammar lessons here, are we going to include spelling and punctuation as well?
pot/kettle.....
bojangles said:
Lets try to evaluate this another way.
The over all cost of filling a system with refrigerant is a few dollars. (OEM prices for a couple of pounds)
I'm sorry I was looking at the bigger picture of all refrigerating units. The eventual change over for home, business and industry is a significant volume.
Dr. Hess - using the search page of www.patentfamily.de with a time constraint of prior to 1986 I found over three hundred patents which mentioned 1,1,1,2-tetrafluoroethane. R-134A would have been lumped into a class of compounds so finding the actual patent would take more than 15 or 20 minutes. A Google search turns up too many hits related to the history of refrigeration.
Based on this article http://inventors.about.com/library/in it's possible that US Patent #1,886,339 but I haven't had the opportunity to download it an review the claims. {I checked - it doesn't relate to freon only mentions ammonia.}
One more interesting link - http://heritage.dupont.com/touchpoint
Concerning DuPont, if you're ever in Deleware a visit to the original powder works is worthwhile. To preclude a total loss of manufacturing ability, they spaced their buildings apart a sufficient distance such that an explosion at one would not ignite the neighboring facility.
>> Edited by okc-esprit on Friday 24th March 22:00
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