Transmissions for the Esprit
Discussion
I have heard the reason why Lotus is not going to produce the Esprit anymore is because the supply of the transmission used in it is exhausted and no other transmission fits? Is that true? I think that is a pretty dull reason.
So what they mean to tell me is that there are NO manufactureres willing to produce a tranny for the Esprit?
I just dont understand why Lotus cant just get things right and make their own products. PERIOD!
I mean the Esprit I have also read is capable of 550bhp with minor upgrades but is restricted to 350 due to the tranny. So what tranny then is in the _SuperBee_ Esprit (from extreme Esprit) that is worked to the balls?
Cant Lotus just replace the parts of the tranny with tougher synchros and the such?
It is quite disturbing to know that the vehicle I have been obsessed with will be put to rest in '03. They are probably going to replace it with a rounder uglier concept in time.
For me, the Esprit is what makes Lotus. Everything about, shape and all.
>>> Edited by LotusV8 on Tuesday 31st December 18:45
So what they mean to tell me is that there are NO manufactureres willing to produce a tranny for the Esprit?
I just dont understand why Lotus cant just get things right and make their own products. PERIOD!
I mean the Esprit I have also read is capable of 550bhp with minor upgrades but is restricted to 350 due to the tranny. So what tranny then is in the _SuperBee_ Esprit (from extreme Esprit) that is worked to the balls?
Cant Lotus just replace the parts of the tranny with tougher synchros and the such?
It is quite disturbing to know that the vehicle I have been obsessed with will be put to rest in '03. They are probably going to replace it with a rounder uglier concept in time.
For me, the Esprit is what makes Lotus. Everything about, shape and all.
>>> Edited by LotusV8 on Tuesday 31st December 18:45
It is not all the transmissions fault.
Tim Engel from our club bulletin board says:
For years, the Esprit has been living on exemptions to the interior safety regulations. I believe all V8's and some of the 4-cyl Esprits were built under that exemption, so the fact that Lotus applied for an extension to the exemption isn't anything new... they've been doing that as a course of business for years.
The safety exemption has to do with the roof's, the top windshield header's, and the A-pillar's close proximity to the occupant's heads... combined with the rather reclined seating position. If the occupants pitch forward in an accident, the head, neck and shoulders will move forward in an upward arc about the hips, driving the head into the roof structure. Besides the obvious head injuries, such an impact will force the head back beyond the neck's normal range of motion, leading to a broken neck. The problem could not be resolved without raising the roof several inches and moving the windshield header forward.
But Lotus has be able to grandfather the old, limited-production design past the safety requirement with a series of exemptions. So, the Esprit's end came not by legislation; rather, it came when Renault pulled the plug on the transaxle's production. When that happened, Lotus felt the Esprit was too old and too close to it's last days to warrant a re-design to use a different transaxle, and elected to end the production run when transaxle supples ran out.
However, recently they "found" (or negotiated ??) a supply of transaxles (45 ??) that would support production of US V8's through 2003. But the then-current safety exemption was due to expire in Sept 2002. So they applied for another exemption that will run through Dec 2003. "IF" the exemption is approved, Fed-Esprit V8 production will run through that date or until the supply of transaxles runs out. The last I heard, approval was still pending.
All available transaxles would go to the production of new cars. None would be held in reserve as service parts.
In any case, no attempt would be made to extend production beyond Dec 2003 even if more transaxles were found and more safety exemptions were granted. The Lotus V8 cannot be made compliant with Federal regulations beyond that date.
Backing the design up to S4s specs isn't an option. The V8 replaced the 910 because the 4-cyl was non-compliant (OBD II ??) and had been surviving on exemptions for some time. Those exemptions finally ran out. So reverting back to a S4s spec Esprit isn't an option either.
No engine, no transaxle and not Fed-Safety compliant by it's very nature, the Esprit has run out of rope.
Regards,
Tim
About Johan's extreme Esprit, it has the standard transmission. I believe he has replaced it maybe 3 times. For the most part it has held up well under the circumstances. The last time at Bonneville the tranny locked up at high speeds it was suspected that it was because he did not install sprayers in the tranny that he had done as a mod for other people but had not have done to his own car for high speed runs. At this time he is researching another tranny to use possiblly a Porsche G50 like the Ultima's use.
Calvin 90 SE
Tim Engel from our club bulletin board says:
For years, the Esprit has been living on exemptions to the interior safety regulations. I believe all V8's and some of the 4-cyl Esprits were built under that exemption, so the fact that Lotus applied for an extension to the exemption isn't anything new... they've been doing that as a course of business for years.
The safety exemption has to do with the roof's, the top windshield header's, and the A-pillar's close proximity to the occupant's heads... combined with the rather reclined seating position. If the occupants pitch forward in an accident, the head, neck and shoulders will move forward in an upward arc about the hips, driving the head into the roof structure. Besides the obvious head injuries, such an impact will force the head back beyond the neck's normal range of motion, leading to a broken neck. The problem could not be resolved without raising the roof several inches and moving the windshield header forward.
But Lotus has be able to grandfather the old, limited-production design past the safety requirement with a series of exemptions. So, the Esprit's end came not by legislation; rather, it came when Renault pulled the plug on the transaxle's production. When that happened, Lotus felt the Esprit was too old and too close to it's last days to warrant a re-design to use a different transaxle, and elected to end the production run when transaxle supples ran out.
However, recently they "found" (or negotiated ??) a supply of transaxles (45 ??) that would support production of US V8's through 2003. But the then-current safety exemption was due to expire in Sept 2002. So they applied for another exemption that will run through Dec 2003. "IF" the exemption is approved, Fed-Esprit V8 production will run through that date or until the supply of transaxles runs out. The last I heard, approval was still pending.
All available transaxles would go to the production of new cars. None would be held in reserve as service parts.
In any case, no attempt would be made to extend production beyond Dec 2003 even if more transaxles were found and more safety exemptions were granted. The Lotus V8 cannot be made compliant with Federal regulations beyond that date.
Backing the design up to S4s specs isn't an option. The V8 replaced the 910 because the 4-cyl was non-compliant (OBD II ??) and had been surviving on exemptions for some time. Those exemptions finally ran out. So reverting back to a S4s spec Esprit isn't an option either.
No engine, no transaxle and not Fed-Safety compliant by it's very nature, the Esprit has run out of rope.
Regards,
Tim
About Johan's extreme Esprit, it has the standard transmission. I believe he has replaced it maybe 3 times. For the most part it has held up well under the circumstances. The last time at Bonneville the tranny locked up at high speeds it was suspected that it was because he did not install sprayers in the tranny that he had done as a mod for other people but had not have done to his own car for high speed runs. At this time he is researching another tranny to use possiblly a Porsche G50 like the Ultima's use.
Calvin 90 SE
I have heard the reason why Lotus is not going to produce the Esprit anymore is because the supply of the transmission used in it is exhausted and no other transmission fits? Is that true? I think that is a pretty dull reason.
So what they mean to tell me is that there are NO manufactureres willing to produce a tranny for the Esprit?
I just dont understand why Lotus cant just get things right and make their own products. PERIOD!
I mean the Esprit I have also read is capable of 550bhp with minor upgrades but is restricted to 350 due to the tranny. So what tranny then is in the _SuperBee_ Esprit (from extreme Esprit) that is worked to the balls?
Cant Lotus just replace the parts of the tranny with tougher synchros and the such?
It is quite disturbing to know that the vehicle I have been obsessed with will be put to rest in '03. They are probably going to replace it with a rounder uglier concept in time.
For me, the Esprit is what makes Lotus. Everything about, shape and all.
>>> Edited by LotusV8 on Tuesday 31st December 18:45
Hi,
It's true that the lack of transmissions is the primary cause (or excuse) for Lotus ceasing production of the Esprit. Other design and safety concerns cannot be achieved within the current design as well.
As far as producing their own tranny, this is far easier said than done. Cost is a huge factor and we all know the historic lack of depth to Lotus pockets. And, contrary to what is often thought, it is not the gears that are the problem. The inherent weakness in both the Renault and previously used Citroen tranny is that in a mid-engine design, the 'differential' must be placed ahead of the gear box. This means that the gearbox must use inordinately long shafts on which to mount the gears as the primary shaft, which connects to the engine crankshaft has to go through the CW&P which adds to it's length. These shafts counter-rotate against each other and consequently bow or flex slightly when under load (this occurs on all transmissions, but not to the degree they do with such long shafts. More power = more flex. As this happens, the gears separate and eventually there is insufficient engagement between the gears and they slip, chip and otherwise deteriorate. Solutions to this have been explored before, but bring with them different problems and challenges especially with in the area of longevity and service requirements.
That having been said, one must also consider that the Esprit is really the outgrowth of 1960's technology. It would be near impossible to take advantage of current innovations in powerplant (variable valves, direct injection etc.), Suspension (active or semi-active), transmission (continually variable, electronically controlled) and brakes because of the difficulties in packaging them into the current design.
One must also take into account any changes in Corporate Culture which have occured since the Esprit was first penned. The engineering staff which developed the Esprit of their passions is dwindling as 25 years takes it's toll in attrition, retirements etc. The new crop of engineers are much more eager to develop designs of their own passions, incorporating new innovations, rather than maintain and prolong designs of others who came before. It's not incomprehensible to believe that many of Lotus current Engineers were either very young, or not even born when the 1st S1 rolled off the assembly line. They lack the enthusiasm of the creator when it comes to the Esprit.
Finally, marketing a car that is so old brings numerous challenges. Yes, Porsche and Chevrolet have successfully marketed the 911 and Corvette for a long time, but these cars are produced in great numbers and have had very active racing presences creating awareness that Lotus could not hope to match with limited production, advertising monies and little or no racing involvement save a few privateer efforts. Can Lotus reasonably expect to extend the life of the Esprit merely by keeping it updated and getting the public to view these improvements as more than just facelifting an old design? Would the cost need to soar to accomplish this, and would the public accept that?
As I have said before, the Esprit will shortly belong to history and given it's long run, extensive noteriety and difficulty in adapting to the future, this is perhaps for the best. We now become the 'Keepers of the Flame', as it were, and our actions rather than Lotus will determine how history receives this incredible car...Jim '85TE
Just to add to what Jim said, the 911 and Corvette have had numerous updates in styling; and while the 911 is on its second platform, and the Corvette has had several all-new (well, more or less) platforms, the Esprit platform hasn't changed although of course it was greatly updated when the S cars came out.
Actually come to think of it, the only other cars I can think of that have been in production longer on the same platform are the Morgan and the Lotus/Caterham 7! Are there others?
So yeah, it's had a good go, time to move on. Still awesome though. Just that it needs to be allowed to be a classic.
Actually come to think of it, the only other cars I can think of that have been in production longer on the same platform are the Morgan and the Lotus/Caterham 7! Are there others?
So yeah, it's had a good go, time to move on. Still awesome though. Just that it needs to be allowed to be a classic.
You can get other transmissions for the Esprit like the Quaife 6 speed unit here...
www.cars.u-net.com/lotus/quaifeesp.htm
but the price of it makes it an expensive option...
The SuperBee esprit locked up the transmission while running on the Bonneville flats, and the next plan is to use the Porsche G50 unit, the story is here... www.pistonheads.com/lotus/default.asp?storyId=5132
The transmisson locked up at 162mph
I bet he found out the colour of Adrenalin is brown.....
The Esprit has been around now for 25 years, which is a lot longer than most cars, its gone through a very long evolution process to get where it is today but its age still shows, I think it should just bow out gracefully and be rememberd fondly instead of trying to drag it on for another few years.
>> Edited by Child0fthecorn on Wednesday 1st January 03:02
www.cars.u-net.com/lotus/quaifeesp.htm
but the price of it makes it an expensive option...
The SuperBee esprit locked up the transmission while running on the Bonneville flats, and the next plan is to use the Porsche G50 unit, the story is here... www.pistonheads.com/lotus/default.asp?storyId=5132
The transmisson locked up at 162mph
I bet he found out the colour of Adrenalin is brown..... The Esprit has been around now for 25 years, which is a lot longer than most cars, its gone through a very long evolution process to get where it is today but its age still shows, I think it should just bow out gracefully and be rememberd fondly instead of trying to drag it on for another few years.
>> Edited by Child0fthecorn on Wednesday 1st January 03:02
Very interesting stuff guys. I do remember reading about the tranny locking up on the high speed run.
It is just so sad that the Esprit is on its way out. But it had to happen sometime. Does this mean however that it is insantly a classic? I think so. But what does it mean for insurance purposes?
I wonder though, how much does the Transmission in the Esprit cost? I once read $15,000. I find that hard to believe though. So what is gonna happen when there are no more trannies available anywhere.
I know one thing, when im older and can afford the Esprit, I will always have ONE if any and keep it forever, till the day I die. Even if it has to sit in a room enclosed in glass more like a delicate statue of a reminder of the past glorious supercar it is. To me, it is an icon. It represents many.
It is just so sad that the Esprit is on its way out. But it had to happen sometime. Does this mean however that it is insantly a classic? I think so. But what does it mean for insurance purposes?
I wonder though, how much does the Transmission in the Esprit cost? I once read $15,000. I find that hard to believe though. So what is gonna happen when there are no more trannies available anywhere.
I know one thing, when im older and can afford the Esprit, I will always have ONE if any and keep it forever, till the day I die. Even if it has to sit in a room enclosed in glass more like a delicate statue of a reminder of the past glorious supercar it is. To me, it is an icon. It represents many.
I know of two late model 4cyl Renault transmissions that have failed in exactly the same way: 2nd gear chipped a "small" tooth. In both cases, the car was being driven gently but the original damage could have been from years before. 2nd gear synchros also like to take an early retirement with a fairly large 1->2 gap and (probably worse) neglected clutch hydraulics resulting in lots of shifts w/o the clutch fully disengaged.
Full Lotus USA retail on these parts is probably high compared to mass produced cars: 2nd gear - $500+, 1st & 2nd synchros - $400+ each. A complete rebuild at a dealer with all new synchros, seals, 2nd gear, remove and replace trans, etc., will come up to $5k or so. Expensive but not the $15k I've read in Forza for late-model Ferrari trans rebuilds. Smart shopping and some DIY labor could knock that down by 1/2 or better.
Full Lotus USA retail on these parts is probably high compared to mass produced cars: 2nd gear - $500+, 1st & 2nd synchros - $400+ each. A complete rebuild at a dealer with all new synchros, seals, 2nd gear, remove and replace trans, etc., will come up to $5k or so. Expensive but not the $15k I've read in Forza for late-model Ferrari trans rebuilds. Smart shopping and some DIY labor could knock that down by 1/2 or better.
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