thinking of buying esprit turbo s3
Discussion
most of what you hear is true about that model. you'll be shelling out a few grand just for parts, each time something minor goes wrong. that doesn't scare me so much. what's worse is the growing list of parts that are not available at any price. although a 20 year old car is not that old for most manufacturers, a 20 year old lotus is ready to die. lotus build quality is noticably poor. my car had very low mileage, but was falling apart all over.
Cossie;
I own 3 different Giugiaro Esprits, a pair of '84 Turbos and a '77 S1. Quite contrary to the opinion expressed by others I have found the build quality to be pretty good, considering the kind of car we are talking about here. However that is not to say that there aren't some issues....Especially with the S1. The S1's and S2's were built at a time when Lotus was financially struggling mightily, even by Lotus standards. The S1 was rushed into production before it was ready to keep cash flow going (in my opinion). However the issues that I have dealt with on mine were not build quality but rather unfinished engineering. Things like engine mounts that were not designed to resolve all of the loads properly. I spent about a year chasing down and repairing these types of issues on my S1. Now it is a very enjoyable car that I wouldn't hesitate to drive almost anywhere, any time.
Your particular interest was in the area of an S3 Turbo. I have a pair of them and I drive one or the other of them to work every day. Given sound maintenance these cars have proven completely reliable for me. Both of my cars were purchased with about 35,000 miles on them in the past year. That means that they weren't driven very often by their previous owners. I purchased one of my cars form the original owner who used it for daily transport for about 10 years and then as a track day only car since. He also had every receipt for every penny he ever spent on the car (even had gas and car wash receipts!). The other car had 5 previous owners as near as I can tell and only a handful of service history documents. The problems I have ahd to deal with have been related to lack of use and not abuse or poor build quality.
Folowing purchase I have replaced all hoses, belts and rebuilt the water pumps on both cars. I have also removed and serviced the radiators and oil coolers on both cars along with checking out the cooling fans. I have performed this work in my home garage by myself and not spent more than about $500.00 on each car to do this. I would drive them anywhere. I should add that I drive to a remote desert facility for work in the high desert of Southern California once a week for about a 300 mile round trip. I always drive one of my Esprits for these jaunts as they make the drive much more enjoyable.
My experience is that these cars are about the same as most other '80's cars in terms of reliability if they are maintained properly. Also, mine don't rattle or make strange noises. However they are not the same as new econoboxes. You don't just get in the car, turn the key and motor off. They require consistant attention and immediate service if something should arise. In my opinion the engines are very sound. The body and chassis are also very good (if you don't mind the large panel gaps).
The problem areas are cooling system and potentially the gearbox. The cooling system issue is that there is no extra margin in the system. It works fine and keeps the engine cool (even in 45C temperatures in the California desert in the summer), but only if everything is working correctly. If dirt collects in the coolers or if a fan fails or if a belt fails or if the radiator is clogged internally you can get into expensive trouble quickly by virtue of a blown head gasket. Repairing this yourself is about the same cost in parts (here in the U.S. as for a Honda. A head gasket set costs about $80.00 and engine machine work is about the same for most 4-cylinder engines at a reputable machine shop. If you can't perform your own service the Esprit is much more expensive than a Honda but less than a Porsche (at least in my locality).
The gearbox problem area is two-fold. The gearboxes are reputedly a little weak for the kind of power that the Turbo can put out and parts are no longer made for them. However there is a good supplier of gearbox parts in the Netherlands (Harry Martens) and another in the U.S. (SM World in the Los Angeles area). The difficult to get parts are 1-2 gear synchronizers and crown wheel/pinion gears. The need to replace these parts can be eliminated (assuming that the car is in good order to start with) by just using good sense while driving: Don't do any drag race starts from a dead stop andf you won't break the CWP. Depress the clutch fully and take care shifting from 1st to 2nd and you won't destroy the synchros.
Given your screen name I'm guessing that you are in the UK, is that correct? If that is correct you have a much better supply of easily available used than we do in North America as you have a genuine Lotus junk yard (breaker in the U.K.). Their name is Lotusbits. Over here we have a place in Texas called Sports Car World but the prices are very different primarily because Lotus' are much more common (there's an oxymoron) in the U.K.
Just remember that a hand built Esprit is very different from any mass produced modern car. It was built by a small company (about 1,000 employees total) with very limited resources. It will require consistant attention to detail. If you can treat it with the proper care and respect it will return imeasurable joy and satisfaction. If not it will cause heartache and misery. In either case if you can't afford it it can cause poverty.
Regards,
Ron Schramm
'84 Turbo (x2)
'77 S1
I own 3 different Giugiaro Esprits, a pair of '84 Turbos and a '77 S1. Quite contrary to the opinion expressed by others I have found the build quality to be pretty good, considering the kind of car we are talking about here. However that is not to say that there aren't some issues....Especially with the S1. The S1's and S2's were built at a time when Lotus was financially struggling mightily, even by Lotus standards. The S1 was rushed into production before it was ready to keep cash flow going (in my opinion). However the issues that I have dealt with on mine were not build quality but rather unfinished engineering. Things like engine mounts that were not designed to resolve all of the loads properly. I spent about a year chasing down and repairing these types of issues on my S1. Now it is a very enjoyable car that I wouldn't hesitate to drive almost anywhere, any time.
Your particular interest was in the area of an S3 Turbo. I have a pair of them and I drive one or the other of them to work every day. Given sound maintenance these cars have proven completely reliable for me. Both of my cars were purchased with about 35,000 miles on them in the past year. That means that they weren't driven very often by their previous owners. I purchased one of my cars form the original owner who used it for daily transport for about 10 years and then as a track day only car since. He also had every receipt for every penny he ever spent on the car (even had gas and car wash receipts!). The other car had 5 previous owners as near as I can tell and only a handful of service history documents. The problems I have ahd to deal with have been related to lack of use and not abuse or poor build quality.
Folowing purchase I have replaced all hoses, belts and rebuilt the water pumps on both cars. I have also removed and serviced the radiators and oil coolers on both cars along with checking out the cooling fans. I have performed this work in my home garage by myself and not spent more than about $500.00 on each car to do this. I would drive them anywhere. I should add that I drive to a remote desert facility for work in the high desert of Southern California once a week for about a 300 mile round trip. I always drive one of my Esprits for these jaunts as they make the drive much more enjoyable.
My experience is that these cars are about the same as most other '80's cars in terms of reliability if they are maintained properly. Also, mine don't rattle or make strange noises. However they are not the same as new econoboxes. You don't just get in the car, turn the key and motor off. They require consistant attention and immediate service if something should arise. In my opinion the engines are very sound. The body and chassis are also very good (if you don't mind the large panel gaps).
The problem areas are cooling system and potentially the gearbox. The cooling system issue is that there is no extra margin in the system. It works fine and keeps the engine cool (even in 45C temperatures in the California desert in the summer), but only if everything is working correctly. If dirt collects in the coolers or if a fan fails or if a belt fails or if the radiator is clogged internally you can get into expensive trouble quickly by virtue of a blown head gasket. Repairing this yourself is about the same cost in parts (here in the U.S. as for a Honda. A head gasket set costs about $80.00 and engine machine work is about the same for most 4-cylinder engines at a reputable machine shop. If you can't perform your own service the Esprit is much more expensive than a Honda but less than a Porsche (at least in my locality).
The gearbox problem area is two-fold. The gearboxes are reputedly a little weak for the kind of power that the Turbo can put out and parts are no longer made for them. However there is a good supplier of gearbox parts in the Netherlands (Harry Martens) and another in the U.S. (SM World in the Los Angeles area). The difficult to get parts are 1-2 gear synchronizers and crown wheel/pinion gears. The need to replace these parts can be eliminated (assuming that the car is in good order to start with) by just using good sense while driving: Don't do any drag race starts from a dead stop andf you won't break the CWP. Depress the clutch fully and take care shifting from 1st to 2nd and you won't destroy the synchros.
Given your screen name I'm guessing that you are in the UK, is that correct? If that is correct you have a much better supply of easily available used than we do in North America as you have a genuine Lotus junk yard (breaker in the U.K.). Their name is Lotusbits. Over here we have a place in Texas called Sports Car World but the prices are very different primarily because Lotus' are much more common (there's an oxymoron) in the U.K.
Just remember that a hand built Esprit is very different from any mass produced modern car. It was built by a small company (about 1,000 employees total) with very limited resources. It will require consistant attention to detail. If you can treat it with the proper care and respect it will return imeasurable joy and satisfaction. If not it will cause heartache and misery. In either case if you can't afford it it can cause poverty.
Regards,
Ron Schramm
'84 Turbo (x2)
'77 S1
cheers for your replies conflicting i'm ok at maintainace issues no problem
and can use a spanner ok the car i'm looking at has done 75k so it has been used which is a good sign i'll know better when i view it its a car i love but i have always been put off by others you know LOTUS Lots Of Trouble Usually Serious but i will make my mind up once i have been to see the car
and can use a spanner ok the car i'm looking at has done 75k so it has been used which is a good sign i'll know better when i view it its a car i love but i have always been put off by others you know LOTUS Lots Of Trouble Usually Serious but i will make my mind up once i have been to see the car
LOTUS = Lack Of Trouble, Usually Superb.
thats what i tell the lads at work anyway.
if your good with the spanners, go for it.
be sure to engross yourself into every on-line reference about the cars, getting to know your nearest genuine parts guy was the best thing I every did too.
Classic insurance policies available for just about all Esprit models AFAIK
>> Edited by pitstopete69 on Thursday 26th January 17:19
thats what i tell the lads at work anyway.
if your good with the spanners, go for it.
be sure to engross yourself into every on-line reference about the cars, getting to know your nearest genuine parts guy was the best thing I every did too.
Classic insurance policies available for just about all Esprit models AFAIK
>> Edited by pitstopete69 on Thursday 26th January 17:19
I had a 1987 S3 HC Turbo for a couple of years.
It was bought with only 21k on the clock in 2002 and was suffering from lack of use.
I found it pretty straightforward to fix.
I fettled the gear linkage, put a new exhaust on it, replaced the radiator and fitted a new steering rack. It was a bit fiddly to work on, but was mechanically simple.
The only job I didn't tackle was the cambelt, which I trusted to an independant specialist.
I thought that spares were remarkably cheap and the car seemed reasonably well built.
I must confess that I had a daily driver, so I could take the Esprit off the road for a few days at a time when it needed work.
I believe that the only hopelessely unobtainable part is the crown wheel, which is out of a Citroen Maserati. Otherwise it is the usual Ford and BL parts bin special.
I paid Paul Matty £14,950 for mine and sold it privately two years later for £14,800.
I'd buy another, but not if it had to be my only car.
It was bought with only 21k on the clock in 2002 and was suffering from lack of use.
I found it pretty straightforward to fix.
I fettled the gear linkage, put a new exhaust on it, replaced the radiator and fitted a new steering rack. It was a bit fiddly to work on, but was mechanically simple.
The only job I didn't tackle was the cambelt, which I trusted to an independant specialist.
I thought that spares were remarkably cheap and the car seemed reasonably well built.
I must confess that I had a daily driver, so I could take the Esprit off the road for a few days at a time when it needed work.
I believe that the only hopelessely unobtainable part is the crown wheel, which is out of a Citroen Maserati. Otherwise it is the usual Ford and BL parts bin special.
I paid Paul Matty £14,950 for mine and sold it privately two years later for £14,800.
I'd buy another, but not if it had to be my only car.
I agree the S3T is reasonably robust for an eighties specialist car. Most of the problem is in getting them into good enough condition from previous owners and maintenance by one or two rogue "specialists". At 20 years old pretty much any mechanism deserves to be stripped, inspected, refurbished and reassembled using new fixings etc. especially one you take pride in.
The interiors fall apart through age and can be expensive. I know one or two others don't agree with me, but use Lotus for your interior work. IMO they do a great job for a good price, I think you have to go through a dealer like Bell and Colvil.
I do all my own maintenance, but I did practice by looking after my Dad's Excel for 10+ years.
You need a decent garage, tools, genuine workshop manuals. I have used B&C who are helpful, but mostly SJ sportscars.
I use mine as main transport for the "summer" six months and find it reliable enough.
If you can possibly do what I didn't, remain calm and make a decision with your head, you should get something that will give pleasure in the garage during winter and on the road during summer.....keeps me sane anyway
Richard
The interiors fall apart through age and can be expensive. I know one or two others don't agree with me, but use Lotus for your interior work. IMO they do a great job for a good price, I think you have to go through a dealer like Bell and Colvil.
I do all my own maintenance, but I did practice by looking after my Dad's Excel for 10+ years.
You need a decent garage, tools, genuine workshop manuals. I have used B&C who are helpful, but mostly SJ sportscars.
I use mine as main transport for the "summer" six months and find it reliable enough.
If you can possibly do what I didn't, remain calm and make a decision with your head, you should get something that will give pleasure in the garage during winter and on the road during summer.....keeps me sane anyway
Richard
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