Buying an Esprit is like being beat in the head w/a mallet
Discussion
Hey,
I agree with what you are saying in this particular situation. But, I have to say and I think most will agree that the Esprit badge does mean something to all of us. These cars( in excellent condition of course) are worth to all of us much more than what the market says. Just my 2 cents.
I contemplated selling mine and quickly realized.....bad idea
Jason
I agree with what you are saying in this particular situation. But, I have to say and I think most will agree that the Esprit badge does mean something to all of us. These cars( in excellent condition of course) are worth to all of us much more than what the market says. Just my 2 cents.
I contemplated selling mine and quickly realized.....bad idea
Jason
I've always said:
"The great thing about an Esprit (or Lotus) is they are affordable. The bad thing about
an Esprit (or other Lotus) is they are affordabnle."
The point being a lot of people who buy these wonderful cars shouldn't.
Mark "Feff" Pfeffer
www.LotusCarClub.org
"The great thing about an Esprit (or Lotus) is they are affordable. The bad thing about
an Esprit (or other Lotus) is they are affordabnle."
The point being a lot of people who buy these wonderful cars shouldn't.
Mark "Feff" Pfeffer
www.LotusCarClub.org
silver12r said:
Whatever happened to guys who took care of their stuff? I didn't know the goal these days was to beat your car like a raped ape, neglect the maintainence, tack ghetto sh*t all over it and destroy the interor - then try and sell it for what you paid, and make somebody else pay to fix your bullsh*t.
Sorry for the rant, I'm just a little frustrated....
The cars that are known as the good ones many times do not make it to the ads or ebay. They are traded and sold unadvertised. At the mere mention by one of the high profile listers on PH, Turbo list, and Forum that they are thinking of selling usually generates a flurry a email inquries about price and car details. After all it makes sense to put your trust in the people that offer consistant superior trouble shooting advice that they personally have a well sorted car.
Not only that these cars owned by the high profile listers are usually very well known and have been seen by many other high profile listers.
I know this example is extreme, but how many people would hesitate to buy Karl Franz's Esprit if for some reason he decided to sell it. I don't think his car would make it to the ad stage. A mere casual mention and he would recieve a lot of emails. When I sold my SE I got a 1/2 dozen offers in days. I suspect KFM's Esprit would generate a lot more hits than mine.
What if Feff mentioned he was selling? He would get a lot of hits too. We all know each other and most have met in person seen each others cars. The inner circle of Lotus owners all chat with each other. We know where and who has the good ones. We also have a pretty good idea where the not so goods ones are.
Calvin
Jim,
You should be on the Yahoo turboesprit list as well. I see many cars listed on there. You can post on there what you are looking for as well. In the LA/SF area, there should also be some local clubs that can help you out, and they are on the turboesprit list. There is an approval process to join so that the spammers are kept at bay.
Dr.Hess
You should be on the Yahoo turboesprit list as well. I see many cars listed on there. You can post on there what you are looking for as well. In the LA/SF area, there should also be some local clubs that can help you out, and they are on the turboesprit list. There is an approval process to join so that the spammers are kept at bay.
Dr.Hess
I agree with Hess. I would contact Feff, Gordonie, and a few others at the Turbo list.
collector auto trader has a better selection of cars but usually cost more.
Email off line to a select group of people is a better option as one does not want to possibly offend certain people cars in a public forum when discussing the condition of particular cars.
Calvin
collector auto trader has a better selection of cars but usually cost more.
Email off line to a select group of people is a better option as one does not want to possibly offend certain people cars in a public forum when discussing the condition of particular cars.
Calvin
I'm sorry you have had a poor experience with The List. Did you go through the regular request-to-join process on Yahoo? I don't think Gordonie is the one that grants access. This is the basic link:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/turboesprit/
It is a pretty good bunch of people, really. There are always some stinkers out there, and there is the occasional pissing match, but for the most part it is well behaved. Cars come up for sale and they are posted on the list. It might help if you posted direct. Then just lurk and/or join in and wait for one to come by.
Dr.Hess
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/turboesprit/
It is a pretty good bunch of people, really. There are always some stinkers out there, and there is the occasional pissing match, but for the most part it is well behaved. Cars come up for sale and they are posted on the list. It might help if you posted direct. Then just lurk and/or join in and wait for one to come by.
Dr.Hess
I'm not trying to defend TurboEsprit (especially as I hardly ever post there any more), but they have been having problems with spam mailers joining through automated means. I put it down to using Yahoo instead of a system that an individual controls...
...as for your situation. Why not post on here what you are looking for and what your budget is. Poster MadMike did something similar a few years ago and he ended up with his beautiful Evelyn (that's his car, btw).
If we know what you are looking for and happen to spot one, we can let you know. Also, what area of the country are you in? That might help us to help you narrow down the search.
Finally, PistonHeads has a free classified section and every now and then you might find a good local deal on it (you may have to sift through the UK ads as this is a UK based site)
ErnestM
...as for your situation. Why not post on here what you are looking for and what your budget is. Poster MadMike did something similar a few years ago and he ended up with his beautiful Evelyn (that's his car, btw).
If we know what you are looking for and happen to spot one, we can let you know. Also, what area of the country are you in? That might help us to help you narrow down the search.
Finally, PistonHeads has a free classified section and every now and then you might find a good local deal on it (you may have to sift through the UK ads as this is a UK based site)
ErnestM
It seems like I have come across two deals a year on average over the past few years on a SE or 89 non-SE. As with most things, there are a lot of people who think everything they have is way over valued, some who are totally clueless, some who are jerks. You just have to wait it out and keep your eye on the various sources like hemmings.com, collectorcartraderonline.com, the Recycler, cars.com, PH, eBay, Yahoo TE, and be ready to jump when the right deal comes along.
Traveling to pick it up helps too, to expand your available cars, but being on the Left Coast you are at an advantage. There aren't any other Loti here in NW Arkansas. I drove the '86 Toyota Truck out to San Jose with my car hauler and towed the Crystal Princess back. Couldn't get in any hurries over the mountains with that stock 22R motor, but we made it and got 19MPG with the load and my foot on the floor the whole way. It was an eBay purchase. I had my money lined up and waited for the right deal. Spoke to the seller on the phone (which I think is critical when dealing with that many zero's) and closed the deal at the by it now price. The bid price had gone up $1K while we were talking. PayPal'ed him $100 deposit and headed out the next day with a cashier's check.
Dr.Hess
Traveling to pick it up helps too, to expand your available cars, but being on the Left Coast you are at an advantage. There aren't any other Loti here in NW Arkansas. I drove the '86 Toyota Truck out to San Jose with my car hauler and towed the Crystal Princess back. Couldn't get in any hurries over the mountains with that stock 22R motor, but we made it and got 19MPG with the load and my foot on the floor the whole way. It was an eBay purchase. I had my money lined up and waited for the right deal. Spoke to the seller on the phone (which I think is critical when dealing with that many zero's) and closed the deal at the by it now price. The bid price had gone up $1K while we were talking. PayPal'ed him $100 deposit and headed out the next day with a cashier's check.
Dr.Hess
I went to Ft Lauderdale from Minnesota.
Traveling to get an Esprit is usually part of the game plan.
The Turbo list is populated by a couple of thousand. Only the core people should be considered credible. The ones I am speaking of are people like Feff, Gordonie, Atwell, Tim Engel, etc. There are large number of lurkers as opposed to the people in the know. The weird/unknown people on the list will try and dump sub standard or not worth it cars on the unsuspecting but that is just the nature of the car buying process.
Collector car trader posted prices are higher. But they are asking prices and not what most pay. Many times persistance and multiple corespondence lowers the price. I know many that post high to weed out the dreamers/test drivers and then settle into a dialouge with the serious buyer to negotiate a price.
Just remember as sellers/buyers of a CPI's most aspire to buy low and sell high. Some people get attached to their cars and the clouds their judgement on their asking price. I went for a slightly lower sell price to get my former Esprit into the hands of person who could take care of it and enjoy the Esprit ownership experience.
Good luck,
Calvin
Traveling to get an Esprit is usually part of the game plan.
The Turbo list is populated by a couple of thousand. Only the core people should be considered credible. The ones I am speaking of are people like Feff, Gordonie, Atwell, Tim Engel, etc. There are large number of lurkers as opposed to the people in the know. The weird/unknown people on the list will try and dump sub standard or not worth it cars on the unsuspecting but that is just the nature of the car buying process.
Collector car trader posted prices are higher. But they are asking prices and not what most pay. Many times persistance and multiple corespondence lowers the price. I know many that post high to weed out the dreamers/test drivers and then settle into a dialouge with the serious buyer to negotiate a price.
Just remember as sellers/buyers of a CPI's most aspire to buy low and sell high. Some people get attached to their cars and the clouds their judgement on their asking price. I went for a slightly lower sell price to get my former Esprit into the hands of person who could take care of it and enjoy the Esprit ownership experience.
Good luck,
Calvin
To the forum:
I offered my 93.5 black/tan Esprit OFF LINE (it is not publicly for sale, and I'm keeping it now after this experience) to Jim Ricker ("Silver"
for $26,000. I was as upfront as I could be about the car, and in fact highlighted the flaws instead of the good things about it -- just as I would ask a Seller to do for me since I am more interested in the flaws when I am buying.
- I told him the a/c compressor was seized (a new Sanden SD508 runs about $270)
- I told him the interior was an "8" -- the seats are in better shape than any SE I have seen, but there is some wear/discoloration on the armrest and the shift boot.
- I told him the paint on the body was in great shape, but that the bumpers had a few issues. Right rear is cracked and scraped. Front has some spider webbing. No damage to the fiberglass.
- Car has 38,000 miles. It has been driven regularly (I drive it 3-4 times a week). It has brand new Toyo Proxes RA-1 (race rubber, I do track the car occasionally).
- I have put in an S4s chip and a decatted exhaust, but have the original exhaust and cat which will go with the car (an hour job at most to change them out).
What I got back from Jim (e-mails and a voice mail after I did try to call him) was:
1. I have bleeping "raped" the car.
2. $26,000 for a rare SE (not sure he even knows what a 93.5 is) is ridiculous, since he can get a nice V8 for that price.
3. It has too many miles.
4. I don't know anything about Lotus.
5. I shouldn't own the car.
6. I've ruined the car.
7. He wishes I would call him so he could curse me out.
You guys decide if you want to deal with him.
Thanks.
Jeff
I offered my 93.5 black/tan Esprit OFF LINE (it is not publicly for sale, and I'm keeping it now after this experience) to Jim Ricker ("Silver"
for $26,000. I was as upfront as I could be about the car, and in fact highlighted the flaws instead of the good things about it -- just as I would ask a Seller to do for me since I am more interested in the flaws when I am buying. - I told him the a/c compressor was seized (a new Sanden SD508 runs about $270)
- I told him the interior was an "8" -- the seats are in better shape than any SE I have seen, but there is some wear/discoloration on the armrest and the shift boot.
- I told him the paint on the body was in great shape, but that the bumpers had a few issues. Right rear is cracked and scraped. Front has some spider webbing. No damage to the fiberglass.
- Car has 38,000 miles. It has been driven regularly (I drive it 3-4 times a week). It has brand new Toyo Proxes RA-1 (race rubber, I do track the car occasionally).
- I have put in an S4s chip and a decatted exhaust, but have the original exhaust and cat which will go with the car (an hour job at most to change them out).
What I got back from Jim (e-mails and a voice mail after I did try to call him) was:
1. I have bleeping "raped" the car.
2. $26,000 for a rare SE (not sure he even knows what a 93.5 is) is ridiculous, since he can get a nice V8 for that price.
3. It has too many miles.
4. I don't know anything about Lotus.
5. I shouldn't own the car.
6. I've ruined the car.
7. He wishes I would call him so he could curse me out.
You guys decide if you want to deal with him.
Thanks.
Jeff
JeffYoung said:
To the forum:
$26,000 for a rare SE (not sure he even knows what a 93.5 is) is ridiculous, since he can get a nice V8 for that price.
Jeff
Okay I'll take the nice V8 for 26K. That 26K is USD not in pounds.
The least expensive one I could find in the USA is at about 35K and are 97's about the same price for an S4s. Although I have seen some exceptional S4s's that are 40K.
I don't know if I would pay $26K for a 93.5 with body damage as one can get a 93 without body damage for about that. Repairs and paint are expensive for Esprit's, But it would be a start for talks.
I think Silver is looking for a great deal and there is nothing wrong with that. On ther other hand one can not go off the deep end when offered a sell price.
The seller can ask for whatever price he wants for whatever condition of car. After all if the buyer disagrees with the price and condition of the car all he has to say is pass on this one. The seller is in no way obligated to sell. No harm done to anyone by asking high or by offering low. A fair deal is somewhere in between.
I think most here will agree with that.
Thank you for bringing some sense to this, and I agree.
I can live with the spider webs and cracking as they are not visible until you get close to the car, but my "exchange" with Silver caused me to think about getting them fixed. Got an estimate for $1300 to paint both bumpers from a high end shop. I would deduct that off my price immediately.
And thanks again for describing how the PROCESS works. I offered a fair starting price in the hopes of starting a dialog and got blown out by that guy. I was more than willing to come down if he was serious.
My car is not perfect, but it runs great. The best driving SE/S4 I have driven. But we are all too proud of our kids, aren't we? LOL.
Thanks again for an objective look at the situation. $26k USD (yes DOLLARS, the guy is in LA) for a VA is just looney. But more importantly, it was this guy's attitude that just took the cake. Threats, name calling, etc....that's NOT the way you talk to someone about buying/selling a car.
>> Edited by JeffYoung on Wednesday 14th December 21:11
I can live with the spider webs and cracking as they are not visible until you get close to the car, but my "exchange" with Silver caused me to think about getting them fixed. Got an estimate for $1300 to paint both bumpers from a high end shop. I would deduct that off my price immediately.
And thanks again for describing how the PROCESS works. I offered a fair starting price in the hopes of starting a dialog and got blown out by that guy. I was more than willing to come down if he was serious.
My car is not perfect, but it runs great. The best driving SE/S4 I have driven. But we are all too proud of our kids, aren't we? LOL.
Thanks again for an objective look at the situation. $26k USD (yes DOLLARS, the guy is in LA) for a VA is just looney. But more importantly, it was this guy's attitude that just took the cake. Threats, name calling, etc....that's NOT the way you talk to someone about buying/selling a car.
>> Edited by JeffYoung on Wednesday 14th December 21:11
I'm glad I wasn't the only one with a similiar experience. I offered my 1990 SE at perhaps a little high price (but not out of line), but I expected to be negotiated down to what I though would be a fair price. I did the same, I was very honest about the car and pointed out the good with the not so good.
What I got was not just simple "not interested" or how about a dance to negotiate the price down, but rather cr_p about how ridiculous my price was and why would he pay so much for mine when he just got a perfect, low mileage esprit for half that price.
Sure he's entitled to his opinion and I think that it's great to get a "killer" deal on a car. Because God knows I've gotten some.. but when he begins criticizing people about being rediculous or how HE can't get a GREAT deal on a lotus because people don't want to give away their cars or even the title of this thread i.e. "being beat in the head w/a mallet", I think he's being unrealistic and ridiculous and deserves to be publicly flamed..
Frankly, I wouldn't give him my car no matter how much he offered me. The only reason I was even considering selling was I had my eye on another toy and right now I'm up to seven and don't have room for number 8 without getting a larger warehouse.
What I got was not just simple "not interested" or how about a dance to negotiate the price down, but rather cr_p about how ridiculous my price was and why would he pay so much for mine when he just got a perfect, low mileage esprit for half that price.
Sure he's entitled to his opinion and I think that it's great to get a "killer" deal on a car. Because God knows I've gotten some.. but when he begins criticizing people about being rediculous or how HE can't get a GREAT deal on a lotus because people don't want to give away their cars or even the title of this thread i.e. "being beat in the head w/a mallet", I think he's being unrealistic and ridiculous and deserves to be publicly flamed..
Frankly, I wouldn't give him my car no matter how much he offered me. The only reason I was even considering selling was I had my eye on another toy and right now I'm up to seven and don't have room for number 8 without getting a larger warehouse.
timrdlotus said:
deserves to be publicly flamed..
That's a violation of the rules of this site.
Also - it has been my experience in life that, sometimes, people's personalities just don't mesh. You have to leave open that possibility as well.
I am going to lock this thread now, not because anybody did anything wrong, but because all that I can see happening here is that it will turn into a flame war. It hasn't so far, and I would like to keep it that way. I cannot see this thread bringing any further contribution to the community.
ErnestM
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