Discussion
Ok here is the story:
I just got my car back together and it is down on power. I have replaced the manifold put in a super 60 turbo. New Bosch injectors and MK5 chip. It idles a little rough I thought the new injectors would of helped that out but it didn't. On the road the car drives fine and I can even hear the turbo spinning but I just am not getting any power, the boost gage doesn’t work and I have not hooked up a new gage to test for boost. I am getting 42 PSI at the fuel rail. I did notice that the # 3 cylinder seems to have a high exhaust temp. I used my laser temp gun and all others seem to be around the same temp but number 3 is a bit hotter. Any ideas?
Chris
1990 SE
I just got my car back together and it is down on power. I have replaced the manifold put in a super 60 turbo. New Bosch injectors and MK5 chip. It idles a little rough I thought the new injectors would of helped that out but it didn't. On the road the car drives fine and I can even hear the turbo spinning but I just am not getting any power, the boost gage doesn’t work and I have not hooked up a new gage to test for boost. I am getting 42 PSI at the fuel rail. I did notice that the # 3 cylinder seems to have a high exhaust temp. I used my laser temp gun and all others seem to be around the same temp but number 3 is a bit hotter. Any ideas?
Chris
1990 SE
Hey Chris,
When I had my turbo rebuilt, I had some serious issues. I had gone to a bigger compressor wheel too. I guess it would be about a "super 60" style. It was a real dog. It took a full three seconds to spool up. 0-60 times were in the 7.8+ second range. When I blew the original turbo, it was doing a 6.8 second 0-60, and I had done 6.3's before (weather depending.) I eventually went back to a stock compressor and everything is fine now. On a cool day last week or so I did a 5.8 run with the new turbo (lightened only), my stainless exhaust manifold, K&N, MSD coils, Magnecor wires, some new tires and everything else stock. I have no chargecooler.
I would suggest for starters that you get a boost guage hooked up to see when the boost is coming on. I wouldn't be surprised if it did the same as mine did, that is, little bit (0.1 bar) through 3500 RPM then coming on real slow. The exhaust temp on #3 could be a red herring, related to the exhaust valve condition or maybe #3 injector is a bit rich for some reason. You could try swapping the injectors around.
Dr.Hess
When I had my turbo rebuilt, I had some serious issues. I had gone to a bigger compressor wheel too. I guess it would be about a "super 60" style. It was a real dog. It took a full three seconds to spool up. 0-60 times were in the 7.8+ second range. When I blew the original turbo, it was doing a 6.8 second 0-60, and I had done 6.3's before (weather depending.) I eventually went back to a stock compressor and everything is fine now. On a cool day last week or so I did a 5.8 run with the new turbo (lightened only), my stainless exhaust manifold, K&N, MSD coils, Magnecor wires, some new tires and everything else stock. I have no chargecooler.
I would suggest for starters that you get a boost guage hooked up to see when the boost is coming on. I wouldn't be surprised if it did the same as mine did, that is, little bit (0.1 bar) through 3500 RPM then coming on real slow. The exhaust temp on #3 could be a red herring, related to the exhaust valve condition or maybe #3 injector is a bit rich for some reason. You could try swapping the injectors around.
Dr.Hess
Did a Compression check today and got
Compression readings
Cylinder 1, 150 Spark plug some black carbon
Cylinder 2, 145 Spark plug normal
Cylinder 3, 145 Spark plug white shows signs of lean condition
Cylinder 4, 153 Spark plug normal
ideal is still a little rough but i have not been able to compare to another lotus.
Compression readings
Cylinder 1, 150 Spark plug some black carbon
Cylinder 2, 145 Spark plug normal
Cylinder 3, 145 Spark plug white shows signs of lean condition
Cylinder 4, 153 Spark plug normal
ideal is still a little rough but i have not been able to compare to another lotus.
Would not worry about comparing comp numbers to another car. What you are really looking for - you found... your numbers are with in range of each other. Another car may have very fifferent numbers, but all its numbers may be with in its range. I would get worried if you got - say - 150ish in #1,#2, and #4... then got 120ish in #3.
My car (88' turbo) has been consistantly 120,116,119,120 on 1,2,3,4...
Drive topless!!! and good luck
Cameron
My car (88' turbo) has been consistantly 120,116,119,120 on 1,2,3,4...
Drive topless!!! and good luck
Cameron
I am thinking i must have a fuel problem, but i put in new injectors and fuel filter maybe a new O2 sensor or ecu would help. does anyone have the part number for the o2 sensor? the number i found is # 0 258 005 704 009 but the plug is different and the wires are different so i can't tell how it hooks up
thanks
Chris
thanks
Chris
Chris,
These are what I have for the O2 sensor:
Description Manufacturer Part_number Comments Source Confirmed
Oxygen Sensor Bosch 0 258 003 022 Exact replacement Kenneth Golden No
Oxygen Sensor Bosch 0258 005 726 Universal 3 wire Cameron No
Oxygen Sensor AC Delco 16054 OEM, marked "experimental" Dr.Hess Yes
I don't think the O2 sensor would be the cause of your problem, though. I would try swapping around the injectors and see if the lean condition follows that #3. And fix your boost guage.
Dr.Hess
These are what I have for the O2 sensor:
Description Manufacturer Part_number Comments Source Confirmed
Oxygen Sensor Bosch 0 258 003 022 Exact replacement Kenneth Golden No
Oxygen Sensor Bosch 0258 005 726 Universal 3 wire Cameron No
Oxygen Sensor AC Delco 16054 OEM, marked "experimental" Dr.Hess Yes
I don't think the O2 sensor would be the cause of your problem, though. I would try swapping around the injectors and see if the lean condition follows that #3. And fix your boost guage.
Dr.Hess
Hess
O2, 0 258 003 022 i could not find anywhere even in a bosch book. I also think a new O2 wont fix this but it was do for replacment. I am thinking since I have a lean condition on # 3 and since i have all new injectors and still have a lean on #3 and since 2 and 3 fire together that the only problem could be the wires to the #3 injector or a air leak somewhere. I plan to do a leakdown on monday and hopefully that will be fine. it is not real bad lead just white on 1 side of the plug.
I also think that this is just a side note to the lack of power as the car ran fine before all the mods. so unless i knocked a wire lose somewhere the car sould mechanicaly run the same as before. unless the turbo in fact is to big but i just can't belive that as the turbine side is same as stock and the comp side is a super 60 which i have heard of before in Esprits.
I will move the injector plugs around to see what happens.
O2, 0 258 003 022 i could not find anywhere even in a bosch book. I also think a new O2 wont fix this but it was do for replacment. I am thinking since I have a lean condition on # 3 and since i have all new injectors and still have a lean on #3 and since 2 and 3 fire together that the only problem could be the wires to the #3 injector or a air leak somewhere. I plan to do a leakdown on monday and hopefully that will be fine. it is not real bad lead just white on 1 side of the plug.
I also think that this is just a side note to the lack of power as the car ran fine before all the mods. so unless i knocked a wire lose somewhere the car sould mechanicaly run the same as before. unless the turbo in fact is to big but i just can't belive that as the turbine side is same as stock and the comp side is a super 60 which i have heard of before in Esprits.
I will move the injector plugs around to see what happens.
apon closer inspection it looks like spark plugs 2 and 3 are more alike (normal to lean)
and 1 and 4 are a little dry carbon. I wonder if there is any relation to the fact that injectors 2 and 3 fire together and 1 and 4 fire together. also if you look back at the Compresion reading the same pair of cyclinders have close readings. maybe a bad head or intake gasket between 2 and 3.
Chris Lorenz
and 1 and 4 are a little dry carbon. I wonder if there is any relation to the fact that injectors 2 and 3 fire together and 1 and 4 fire together. also if you look back at the Compresion reading the same pair of cyclinders have close readings. maybe a bad head or intake gasket between 2 and 3.
Chris Lorenz
"O2, 0 258 003 022 i could not find anywhere even in a bosch book"
... and you may not find it in a Bosch book. This number even stummped the Bosch rep. for the area until he did some digging. Not sure the entire deal here with this part number, but it seems to be for a select few cars that are not common (ie: The Esprit) even though it is inter-changed with some other O2 sensor numbers from Bosch.
Just some trivia I picked up with a grain of sault when trying to locate on myself...
Drive topless!!!
Cameron
... and you may not find it in a Bosch book. This number even stummped the Bosch rep. for the area until he did some digging. Not sure the entire deal here with this part number, but it seems to be for a select few cars that are not common (ie: The Esprit) even though it is inter-changed with some other O2 sensor numbers from Bosch.
Just some trivia I picked up with a grain of sault when trying to locate on myself...
Drive topless!!!
Cameron
I don't claim responsibility for that Bosch part number. I just store the data. That one came from Kenneth Golden. I claim responsibility for the Delco part number, as I read that off my sensor. I am a bit concerned about the "Experimental" markings, though. If someone has a better or different cross reference, let me know and I'll archive it.
According to the manuals, a 65 is Injector Circuit. Quote:
Code 65 sets when:
* 4 amp injector driver current not reached on either circuit
* Battery voltage greater than 9 volts
* Injectors commanded "ON" longer than a calibrated pulse width
* Above conditions met for 20 seconds
End quote
Says nominal injector resistance is 1.9 to 2.1 ohms at 60C. Resistance will increase slightly at higher temperatures. Reset computer, idle for 1 minute, check for code again. Check wiring, etc.
Also, of course, make sure that the new turbo isn't toast (happened to me), no boost leaks, waste gate not stuck open, usual stuff.
I don't think you have a head or gasket issue either. To narrow down the changes, you might try putting your original injectors back in and seeing what happens then. And, like I said, you need to have a boost guage to see what is happening there. With my bigger compressor wheel, it was boosting, but it came on so late and so slow that it didn't make the power I was used to. No "kick in the back" effect when the thing came on, and it didn't get full boost till around 3500-4000. At this point, we don't know if it is boosting at all or just so slow and late that you aren't noticeing it.
Dr.Hess
According to the manuals, a 65 is Injector Circuit. Quote:
Code 65 sets when:
* 4 amp injector driver current not reached on either circuit
* Battery voltage greater than 9 volts
* Injectors commanded "ON" longer than a calibrated pulse width
* Above conditions met for 20 seconds
End quote
Says nominal injector resistance is 1.9 to 2.1 ohms at 60C. Resistance will increase slightly at higher temperatures. Reset computer, idle for 1 minute, check for code again. Check wiring, etc.
Also, of course, make sure that the new turbo isn't toast (happened to me), no boost leaks, waste gate not stuck open, usual stuff.
I don't think you have a head or gasket issue either. To narrow down the changes, you might try putting your original injectors back in and seeing what happens then. And, like I said, you need to have a boost guage to see what is happening there. With my bigger compressor wheel, it was boosting, but it came on so late and so slow that it didn't make the power I was used to. No "kick in the back" effect when the thing came on, and it didn't get full boost till around 3500-4000. At this point, we don't know if it is boosting at all or just so slow and late that you aren't noticeing it.
Dr.Hess
the car drove the same with the old injectors. I will check and see what i find out with the computer, i got a page from the service book on code 65 and it say to try a buch of stuff. I will try it today, I am still waiting for the boost gage to come in so i will post on that next week.
thanks
Chris
thanks
Chris
OK we have made some progress, as i was thinking about my problem and remembered that i used some high temp silicone on the custom exhaust flange at the turbo exit. I replaced the O2 sensor and cleaned up the silicone car still ideas a little rough but drives OK still was not getting any boost then all of a sudden the boost would come on like crazy at about 4,000 RPMs, HESS maybe you are right maybe that super 60 turbo is to big. I am for sure at 3,500 I have no boost. I plan to look into a 50 trim turbo.
Chris
Chris
teamlorenz said:
OK we have made some progress, as i was thinking about my problem and remembered that i used some high temp silicone on the custom exhaust flange at the turbo exit. I replaced the O2 sensor and cleaned up the silicone car still ideas a little rough but drives OK still was not getting any boost then all of a sudden the boost would come on like crazy at about 4,000 RPMs, HESS maybe you are right maybe that super 60 turbo is to big. I am for sure at 3,500 I have no boost. I plan to look into a 50 trim turbo.
Chris
Chris,
DONT USE SILICONE !!! Silicone contaminates the O2-sensor and will make it useless !!!
IMHO, you should install a new O2 sensor and remove that insane silicone stuff !
Marcus
PS: I have quite a few customers that have a (very similar) T3 Super 60 Turbo installed without any negative effect. Just make sure that the wastegate capsule is adjusted correctly (with a Super 60 you should adjust the mech. boost a bit higher, around 0.75 bar). And please donot use the stock ECU-code with your Super 60. The stock code is way to calm (less progressive) with low rpm. You need a code (chip) that holds the wastegate closed (solenoid vented fully) up to a certain point ... otherwise your Super 60 will not get into gear/speed before you get to 3500-4000rpm. Its all about fine tuning ... If you like I would be happy to guide you through your tuning work.
>> Edited by Paula&Marcus on Wednesday 30th November 17:15
marcus
I may have to take you up on your offer but i don't think i am at the tunning stage just yet, as I drove the car today and it drove ok but never any boost. i ran freescan during idling and then ran it agian while driving and something just is not correct. If anyone wants to look at my files go to:
www.teamlorenz.com/1990_lotus_se.htm
I am not sure how do read everything on it but maybe someone else will see something i can't. also I can hear the turbo spinning and i does not sound that good, it keeps changing sounds.
thanks for all the help
Chris Lorenz
I may have to take you up on your offer but i don't think i am at the tunning stage just yet, as I drove the car today and it drove ok but never any boost. i ran freescan during idling and then ran it agian while driving and something just is not correct. If anyone wants to look at my files go to:
www.teamlorenz.com/1990_lotus_se.htm
I am not sure how do read everything on it but maybe someone else will see something i can't. also I can hear the turbo spinning and i does not sound that good, it keeps changing sounds.
thanks for all the help
Chris Lorenz
i took the turbo off due to the changing sounds it was making and sure enough the wheels where hitting the housing and the turbo is toast. the turbine side smelled like super burnt oil. new question is. was it a bad built turbo? or something else. I do like the ford style turbine. I had the turbo off the car and on the bench in 25 minutes. pics will be posted this weekend on the web page. hopefully i will get this or i mean these problems turned around soon.
Chris Lorenz
Chris Lorenz
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