Clutch problem
Discussion
I had my 2nd gear replaced on my '96 S4s.
While there, the clutch plate was replaced as well.
The part came from SJ, correct genuine part, so should be no issues there.
The job was done by Lotus dealer, where the tech is ex-Lotus factory, so there should be no issues there either.
However, now that it is all fitted, it is almost impossible to select gears and 1 out of 3 tries results with a gear crunch.
The dealer reckons is because the plate is too thick. But SJ sent me a standard plate, and the plate only measures 1mm more in thickness than the used plate it replaced.
Also, the bearing is making a wirring noise until the clutch pedal is pressed, even for a tiny bit.
As well, through the clutch pedal, I feel a great deal of vibration, like feeling everything that is happenening in the gear box.
The clutch pedal feels lighter than before the clutch was replaced.
Now, the dealer reckons it is the fault of the plate I supplied, so they want to fit one of theirs (at a greatly inflated price) and charge me for another full days worth of labor to replace the plate.
Years ago on my '89, I had the same issue with the clutch when it was replaced, and it was fixed in a minute with the mechanic getting under the back of the car and fiddling with something.
What suggestions do any of you have?
SJ says the part is correct (I have no reason to doubt them at all). Maybe the plate was fitted wrong? After all, if the tech has been building the Esprits new at the factory following a set of instructions, it doesn't nbecessarily mean that he can fix used cars that have problems that need to be identified?
While it was there, a leak in the clutch cylinder was fixed as well as the cylinder re-sleeved. Also, leaking drive shaft was fixed too.
Any help would be appreciated as I just want the car back on the road as it's been too many weeks all up now.
While there, the clutch plate was replaced as well.
The part came from SJ, correct genuine part, so should be no issues there.
The job was done by Lotus dealer, where the tech is ex-Lotus factory, so there should be no issues there either.
However, now that it is all fitted, it is almost impossible to select gears and 1 out of 3 tries results with a gear crunch.
The dealer reckons is because the plate is too thick. But SJ sent me a standard plate, and the plate only measures 1mm more in thickness than the used plate it replaced.
Also, the bearing is making a wirring noise until the clutch pedal is pressed, even for a tiny bit.
As well, through the clutch pedal, I feel a great deal of vibration, like feeling everything that is happenening in the gear box.
The clutch pedal feels lighter than before the clutch was replaced.
Now, the dealer reckons it is the fault of the plate I supplied, so they want to fit one of theirs (at a greatly inflated price) and charge me for another full days worth of labor to replace the plate.
Years ago on my '89, I had the same issue with the clutch when it was replaced, and it was fixed in a minute with the mechanic getting under the back of the car and fiddling with something.
What suggestions do any of you have?
SJ says the part is correct (I have no reason to doubt them at all). Maybe the plate was fitted wrong? After all, if the tech has been building the Esprits new at the factory following a set of instructions, it doesn't nbecessarily mean that he can fix used cars that have problems that need to be identified?
While it was there, a leak in the clutch cylinder was fixed as well as the cylinder re-sleeved. Also, leaking drive shaft was fixed too.
Any help would be appreciated as I just want the car back on the road as it's been too many weeks all up now.
It does sound as it is not adjusted properly. The slightly thicker plate may require a different adjustment than the factory one. Is it real hard to put in 1st gear and almost impossible to put in reverse (with lots of grinding)? -> Clutch not releasing.
I don't know how the Lotus factory is, but I don't think I would want the assembly line people at the Chevy factory working on my car (if I had a Chevy). They may know exactly how to put the headlights on a 2003 Cavalair, but could they adjust the clutch?
Dr.Hess
I don't know how the Lotus factory is, but I don't think I would want the assembly line people at the Chevy factory working on my car (if I had a Chevy). They may know exactly how to put the headlights on a 2003 Cavalair, but could they adjust the clutch?
Dr.Hess
Dr.Hess said:
It does sound as it is not adjusted properly. The slightly thicker plate may require a different adjustment than the factory one. Is it real hard to put in 1st gear and almost impossible to put in reverse (with lots of grinding)? -> Clutch not releasing.
That is EXACTLY what it's doing.
Dr.Hess said:
I don't know how the Lotus factory is, but I don't think I would want the assembly line people at the Chevy factory working on my car (if I had a Chevy). They may know exactly how to put the headlights on a 2003 Cavalair, but could they adjust the clutch?
Dr.Hess
That is what I was thinking too.
I also forgot to mention, that the Lotus tech kept grinding the gears when he was trying to put the car in reverse until I told him that he has to put it in 1st first, just like in any other Esprit I've seen out there. He did that, and of course reverse didn't grind, but it did get me concerned about his ability, because it is common knowledge that 1st has to be selected before reverse as there's no syncro in reverse.
Andecorp,
Sorry to hear of your troubles. Did they replace just the friction disc and not the pressure plate or both?
Several things can cause those symptoms...
My first thought would be air still in the line but that doesn't explain the release bearing noise.
Next would be the adjustment at the slave which even if the tech didn't check it, it should still work at the previous setting if it was in spec at that time. Worth a look though to be sure.
The master cylinder sometimes seems to have a way of knowing when the slave has been worked on and gets jealous due to lack of attention and refuses to perform as required. Maybe time for a rebuild. But this again doesn't explain the whirring noise...
Another possibility if the tech is a moron, is that the release bearing slipped off the clutch fork during re-assembly allowing it to contact the pressure plate all the time. That would explain the related noise. It is also possible that the bearing is going bad. Was it replaced with the clutch?
Before tearing it down again I would:
Bleed until all you think all the air is out and then bleed again, depress the clutch pedal with a stick and leave overnight.
Check the slave rod/adjustment nut to be sure it's in spec.
Check the clutch fork travel to see if it's in spec to rule out slave and/or master cylinder problems.
Check the clutch pedal travel specs. There should be a small amount of free play at the top of the stroke (1-2mm)before the hydraulics start to work.
Check the release bearing to make sure it's still attached to the fork. I would think you could remove the pushrod and move the fork back and forth through it's motion and feel/hear the release bearing moving with it although I have never tried this.
If none of that solves the problem I'm afraid it's going to have to come back out as the problem is probably internal.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Jim
95 S4s
P.S.
The clutch plate (friction disc) could not have been put in wrong as it would be next to impossible to put it back together with the plate backwards but even if they did it would make a lot more noise than just a whirring. It is possible that the SJ part is defective or they sent you the wrong one as they are not interchangeable with the SE plate.
>> Edited by jk1 on Sunday 6th November 05:48
Sorry to hear of your troubles. Did they replace just the friction disc and not the pressure plate or both?
Several things can cause those symptoms...
My first thought would be air still in the line but that doesn't explain the release bearing noise.
Next would be the adjustment at the slave which even if the tech didn't check it, it should still work at the previous setting if it was in spec at that time. Worth a look though to be sure.
The master cylinder sometimes seems to have a way of knowing when the slave has been worked on and gets jealous due to lack of attention and refuses to perform as required. Maybe time for a rebuild. But this again doesn't explain the whirring noise...
Another possibility if the tech is a moron, is that the release bearing slipped off the clutch fork during re-assembly allowing it to contact the pressure plate all the time. That would explain the related noise. It is also possible that the bearing is going bad. Was it replaced with the clutch?
Before tearing it down again I would:
Bleed until all you think all the air is out and then bleed again, depress the clutch pedal with a stick and leave overnight.
Check the slave rod/adjustment nut to be sure it's in spec.
Check the clutch fork travel to see if it's in spec to rule out slave and/or master cylinder problems.
Check the clutch pedal travel specs. There should be a small amount of free play at the top of the stroke (1-2mm)before the hydraulics start to work.
Check the release bearing to make sure it's still attached to the fork. I would think you could remove the pushrod and move the fork back and forth through it's motion and feel/hear the release bearing moving with it although I have never tried this.
If none of that solves the problem I'm afraid it's going to have to come back out as the problem is probably internal.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Jim
95 S4s
P.S.
The clutch plate (friction disc) could not have been put in wrong as it would be next to impossible to put it back together with the plate backwards but even if they did it would make a lot more noise than just a whirring. It is possible that the SJ part is defective or they sent you the wrong one as they are not interchangeable with the SE plate.
>> Edited by jk1 on Sunday 6th November 05:48
Thanks for all the help.
Well, got the car back today.
The reason why it didn't change gears is because the settings where not checked and they were not in specs, of course.
This morning I went there with service notes in hand, requested that everything be in the service notes specs, and guess what, it works fine now!
What I am not impressed about is about the fact that I got them to measure the old clutch plate, and it was 6.5mm which is more than usable, and just using some simple maths, at the same rate of wear, I still had another good 15,000 to do on that clutch plate, which means 3 years for me. So there was no reason what to speak of to change it.
At least now I know that according to my driving, a clutch will last me 45,000, or 9 years at my driving rate, and I do track work too.
At least I am happy to have the car back.
I still have thew wirring noise from the bearing though, but the tech reckons he couldn't hear it beause he's partially deaf, so he didn't know what I was talking about...
Well, got the car back today.
The reason why it didn't change gears is because the settings where not checked and they were not in specs, of course.
This morning I went there with service notes in hand, requested that everything be in the service notes specs, and guess what, it works fine now!
What I am not impressed about is about the fact that I got them to measure the old clutch plate, and it was 6.5mm which is more than usable, and just using some simple maths, at the same rate of wear, I still had another good 15,000 to do on that clutch plate, which means 3 years for me. So there was no reason what to speak of to change it.
At least now I know that according to my driving, a clutch will last me 45,000, or 9 years at my driving rate, and I do track work too.
At least I am happy to have the car back.
I still have thew wirring noise from the bearing though, but the tech reckons he couldn't hear it beause he's partially deaf, so he didn't know what I was talking about...
BTW, it is not normal (even for an Esprit) to have to put the car in 1st gear before selecting reverse. Anyway, you hopefully have it all sorted now. And I would consider finding another shop if possible: This one did not adjust the clutch after changing it, and they let you pick it up obviously not working properly. That's two mistakes. And they failed to find those two mistakes, three mistakes. Zero QC. Yup, must have been a Lotus assembly line worker. Probably from Europa days.
Dr.Hess
Dr.Hess
Dr.Hess said:
BTW, it is not normal (even for an Esprit) to have to put the car in 1st gear before selecting reverse. Anyway, you hopefully have it all sorted now. And I would consider finding another shop if possible: This one did not adjust the clutch after changing it, and they let you pick it up obviously not working properly. That's two mistakes. And they failed to find those two mistakes, three mistakes. Zero QC. Yup, must have been a Lotus assembly line worker. Probably from Europa days.
Dr.Hess
Sorry to disagree with you Doc., but the Renault transaxel pre-1998 does not have a brake to stop the shaft from spinning when going into reverse. Going from any other gear to reverse has a large enough difference in ratios that getting the reverse idler to engage (remember without a synchro) without a crunch is almost impossible. First gear is the closest to reverse and therfore the shafts are closer in speed.
The V8's had a brake to stop the shaft when going into reverse.
BTW my 2002 Acura RSX Type-S 6speed manual has an electronic reverse lockout. The vehicle speed has to be 0mph, and you can only get to reverse from 1st, for the lockout to disengage.
Travis
Vulcan Grey 89SE
www.lotuscolorado.com/vulcangrey/
OK Travis, but my 89 doesn't have that problem. If you wait just a little bit with the clutch depressed, it slows plenty if the clutch isn't dragging. About any non-syncro'ed reverse box will crunch to some extent from neutral, but not to the point that you can't put it into reverse without selecting another gear first.
Dr.Hess
Dr.Hess
[Sorry to disagree with you Doc., but the Renault transaxel pre-1998 does not have a brake to stop the shaft from spinning when going into reverse. Going from any other gear to reverse has a large enough difference in ratios that getting the reverse idler to engage (remember without a synchro) without a crunch is almost impossible. First gear is the closest to reverse and therfore the shafts are closer in speed.
The V8's had a brake to stop the shaft when going into reverse.]
What DrHess said was right. The clutch driven plate is partially dragging from not being fully dis-engaged. Friction through the oil will stop the input shaft from spinning if the clutch plate is fully disengaged.
Reverse gear engagement is done by sliding the Reverse Idler gear onto the secondary shaft 1st/2nd sliding hub which will be held from turning by the car being stationary - and at the same time engaging the gear teeth on the input shaft. These teeth have bevels cut in them to aid meshing. Soooo you will find then the grinding will only be done on the input shaft side, because the shaft is still turning, due to clutch driven plate drag.
A correctly adjustd clutch will have no trouble going into any gear. Shifting into either 1st or 2nd will stop the shaft from turning enough to get it into reverse.
My 89SE has no problem moving to reverse from any stationary situation without grinding. Its all about adjustment.
Ive been studying the Renault boxes in GREAT detail for about a year now, and have made strenghtening upgrades based mainly on the Bell kit. So I think I have this gearbox stuff sussed!!!
The V8's had a brake to stop the shaft when going into reverse.]
What DrHess said was right. The clutch driven plate is partially dragging from not being fully dis-engaged. Friction through the oil will stop the input shaft from spinning if the clutch plate is fully disengaged.
Reverse gear engagement is done by sliding the Reverse Idler gear onto the secondary shaft 1st/2nd sliding hub which will be held from turning by the car being stationary - and at the same time engaging the gear teeth on the input shaft. These teeth have bevels cut in them to aid meshing. Soooo you will find then the grinding will only be done on the input shaft side, because the shaft is still turning, due to clutch driven plate drag.
A correctly adjustd clutch will have no trouble going into any gear. Shifting into either 1st or 2nd will stop the shaft from turning enough to get it into reverse.
My 89SE has no problem moving to reverse from any stationary situation without grinding. Its all about adjustment.
Ive been studying the Renault boxes in GREAT detail for about a year now, and have made strenghtening upgrades based mainly on the Bell kit. So I think I have this gearbox stuff sussed!!!
Now I see what you and Dr. Hess are saying.
I thought I read something in the Lotus service manual saying that the renault tranny should always be put into 1st before going to reverse...
So are you saying that the slave cylinder should be adjusted out of Lotus spec? The lotus slave adjustment spec is designed so that the clutch starts slipping (slave runs out of travel) before the clutch is worn to the rivets. The slave can be adjusted so that it continues to function past this point but it should oly be used as an emergency measure to get you home.
If you adjust the slave, say on a new clutch, so that the clutch disc completely stops touching the flywheel (and stops spinning), are you still in spec?
Travis
Vulcan Grey 89SE
www.lotuscolorado.com/vulcangrey
I thought I read something in the Lotus service manual saying that the renault tranny should always be put into 1st before going to reverse...
So are you saying that the slave cylinder should be adjusted out of Lotus spec? The lotus slave adjustment spec is designed so that the clutch starts slipping (slave runs out of travel) before the clutch is worn to the rivets. The slave can be adjusted so that it continues to function past this point but it should oly be used as an emergency measure to get you home.
If you adjust the slave, say on a new clutch, so that the clutch disc completely stops touching the flywheel (and stops spinning), are you still in spec?
Travis
Vulcan Grey 89SE
www.lotuscolorado.com/vulcangrey
lotusse89 said:
Now I see what you and Dr. Hess are saying.
I thought I read something in the Lotus service manual saying that the renault tranny should always be put into 1st before going to reverse...
So are you saying that the slave cylinder should be adjusted out of Lotus spec? The lotus slave adjustment spec is designed so that the clutch starts slipping (slave runs out of travel) before the clutch is worn to the rivets. The slave can be adjusted so that it continues to function past this point but it should oly be used as an emergency measure to get you home.
If you adjust the slave, say on a new clutch, so that the clutch disc completely stops touching the flywheel (and stops spinning), are you still in spec?
About your thoughts on the clutch travel. You say that Lotus designed the clutch system to slip when the driven plate is worn out? For this to happen, it would mean that the release fork would have to be so adjusted so that when the driven plate does wear, the diaphram springs would contact the release bearing. That would be the only way this early warning system would work. Not in my opinion a good idea. Anyway the rivits are usually brass so they arnt going to score the driving surfaces.
For one of these adjustments it sounds like you feel there should always be pressure in the clutch hydraulic line. I would consider this wrong too. I myself would sooner see the driven plate completely clear of the flywheel and pressure plate so the gearbox syncros can do their job properly. You certainly wont break anything. The only spec you would want to worry about is having the diaphram spring go too far over centre.
Commonsense logic prevails.
lawrence1 said:
For this to happen, it would mean that the release fork would have to be so adjusted so that when the driven plate does wear, the diaphram springs would contact the release bearing. That would be the only way this early warning system would work.
Nope, the way it works is that the slave runs out of travel when the clutch is fully worn. So that when you are just down to the rivets, the slave can't fully disengage the clutch from the flywheel.
Lotus designed it so that, when fully worn, the clutch slips during shifts, not all the time. Then you know it is time to change the clutch.
Travis
Vulcan Grey 89SE
www.lotuscolorado.com/vulcangrey/
Travis,
I think you are partially but not 100% correct. You are correct in that the spec is to insure no damage to the flywheel or pressure plate. But the slippage occurs not during shifting but under load because the clutch is not fully engaged. It should still disengage and shift just fine.
From the manual, "The dimension specified allows the maximum permissible wear of the friction plate to take place before the slave cylinder piston "tops out" on its return stroke, causing release mechanism preload and subsequent clutch slip. This indicates clutch replacement is necessary."
As Lawrence surmised, it is accomplished by pre-load with the release bearing contacting the pressure plate springs. And the slave adjustment is also why some people have to shift to first before reverse. If the adjustment is too far the other way the clutch doesn't totally disengage and allow the primary shaft of the gearbox to stop on it's own when the clutch pedal is depressed.
Cheers,
Jim
>> Edited by jk1 on Friday 11th November 01:57
I think you are partially but not 100% correct. You are correct in that the spec is to insure no damage to the flywheel or pressure plate. But the slippage occurs not during shifting but under load because the clutch is not fully engaged. It should still disengage and shift just fine.
From the manual, "The dimension specified allows the maximum permissible wear of the friction plate to take place before the slave cylinder piston "tops out" on its return stroke, causing release mechanism preload and subsequent clutch slip. This indicates clutch replacement is necessary."
As Lawrence surmised, it is accomplished by pre-load with the release bearing contacting the pressure plate springs. And the slave adjustment is also why some people have to shift to first before reverse. If the adjustment is too far the other way the clutch doesn't totally disengage and allow the primary shaft of the gearbox to stop on it's own when the clutch pedal is depressed.
Cheers,
Jim
>> Edited by jk1 on Friday 11th November 01:57
andecorp said:
I still have thew wirring noise from the bearing though, but the tech reckons he couldn't hear it beause he's partially deaf, so he didn't know what I was talking about...
Sorry to say this, but I think you still have a problem. There shouldn't be any whirring sound. Are you feeling any vibration from the clutch pedal?
When my release bearing went, there was a nasty whirring sound and quite noticeable vibration. I wonder if things weren't put back together on your car properly.
Time to find a better mechanic.
-Dave
The whirring is gone - it was an adjustment issue. Of course they didn't figure it out, I had to.
There's still vibration coming through the pedal. Most likely one of the clutch cover's fingers is being touched.
I am waiting on a new clutch cover, new bearing, new guiding tube and new master cyclinder to arrive (since I'm having it all apart again, might as well make it all new), and then I'm having them all installed by someone else that has done a lot of correct work for me in the past.
If indeed the original job was installed wrong, as it is obvious that it was, then they will be getting a claim.
There's still vibration coming through the pedal. Most likely one of the clutch cover's fingers is being touched.
I am waiting on a new clutch cover, new bearing, new guiding tube and new master cyclinder to arrive (since I'm having it all apart again, might as well make it all new), and then I'm having them all installed by someone else that has done a lot of correct work for me in the past.
If indeed the original job was installed wrong, as it is obvious that it was, then they will be getting a claim.
"There's still vibration coming through the pedal. Most likely one of the clutch cover's fingers is being touched."
... this can be caused by failure to install the steel sleeve on the input shaft and a failing pilot bearing. I say this beacuse I had this vibration and (after deciding to do my own work forever) I found that the shop failed to do this bit of work. In fact, they failed to put the pilot bearing in at all! Prob not the issue... but I'd ask...
Drive topless!!!
Cameron
>> Edited by Autocross7 on Saturday 19th November 16:21
... this can be caused by failure to install the steel sleeve on the input shaft and a failing pilot bearing. I say this beacuse I had this vibration and (after deciding to do my own work forever) I found that the shop failed to do this bit of work. In fact, they failed to put the pilot bearing in at all! Prob not the issue... but I'd ask...
Drive topless!!!
Cameron
>> Edited by Autocross7 on Saturday 19th November 16:21
I personally adjusted everything, and now the shift is perfectly smooth, there's no wirring noise from the bearing and there's no vibration from the pedal.
All good.
BUT
If the car is stationary on an incline, either nose down or nose up, it is very hard to select 1st and it is impossible to select reverse without grinding. This happens only on a slope though.
Any ideas?
While proding around, I noticed some paint bubbling at the master clutch cylinder, so it's leaking. That's being replaced shortly. Could that cause the shifting problem on inclines???
All good.
BUT
If the car is stationary on an incline, either nose down or nose up, it is very hard to select 1st and it is impossible to select reverse without grinding. This happens only on a slope though.
Any ideas?
While proding around, I noticed some paint bubbling at the master clutch cylinder, so it's leaking. That's being replaced shortly. Could that cause the shifting problem on inclines???
andecorp said:
I personally adjusted everything, and now the shift is perfectly smooth, there's no wirring noise from the bearing and there's no vibration from the pedal.
All good.
BUT
If the car is stationary on an incline, either nose down or nose up, it is very hard to select 1st and it is impossible to select reverse without grinding. This happens only on a slope though.
Any ideas?
While proding around, I noticed some paint bubbling at the master clutch cylinder, so it's leaking. That's being replaced shortly. Could that cause the shifting problem on inclines???
Hi,
I would say that your master cylinder is defective.
Marcus
[quote=Paula&Marcus]
Hi,
I would say that your master cylinder is defective.
Marcus[/quote]
OK, so replacing the master cylinder should fix the problem. Thanks Marcus
andecorp said:
I personally adjusted everything, and now the shift is perfectly smooth, there's no wirring noise from the bearing and there's no vibration from the pedal.
All good.
BUT
If the car is stationary on an incline, either nose down or nose up, it is very hard to select 1st and it is impossible to select reverse without grinding. This happens only on a slope though.
Any ideas?
While proding around, I noticed some paint bubbling at the master clutch cylinder, so it's leaking. That's being replaced shortly. Could that cause the shifting problem on inclines???
Hi,
I would say that your master cylinder is defective.
Marcus[/quote]
OK, so replacing the master cylinder should fix the problem. Thanks Marcus
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