Questions about possible Esprit purchase
Discussion
The car will have a full pre-purchase inspection next week. It's an 88 turbo with 64,000 miles and in quite nice condition for that amount of mileage. The oil pressure and engine temperature seem to be fine, even on a hot Florida day. The steering rack and clutch feel OK to me. The air conditioning is pretty good, but feels like it could use a charge.
Here are my concerns: It's a little hard to start cold. It requires spinning the starter while the engine gradually spins up. The idle is ragged for the first few minutes until it warms up, then it runs fine. The second-gear synchros seem weak. I understand these items can be serious trouble. The passenger-side power window will go down but not up on its own, driver side doesn't work at all.
I have owned Ferraris, so I'm aware of the potential costs of seemingly minor problems. I really like the car, and can get it for $15,500, subject to what will be a very thorough PPI. I welcome any input from those of you who know these cars.
Thanks,
Morrie
Here are my concerns: It's a little hard to start cold. It requires spinning the starter while the engine gradually spins up. The idle is ragged for the first few minutes until it warms up, then it runs fine. The second-gear synchros seem weak. I understand these items can be serious trouble. The passenger-side power window will go down but not up on its own, driver side doesn't work at all.
I have owned Ferraris, so I'm aware of the potential costs of seemingly minor problems. I really like the car, and can get it for $15,500, subject to what will be a very thorough PPI. I welcome any input from those of you who know these cars.
Thanks,
Morrie
I would be wary of the cold starting, is it a carb of injection model??
as regards the windows it is probably the motors these are stock out of and 86-89 jag xjs
1 side fits all
make sure the motors have 8 teeth when installing lub the up well and make sure you do not overtighten the screw at the base of the motor as this can cause binding
It could also be the window switches dont know what you call them in the states or even if they were available there but the were out of a mini metro p100 around 12 dollars each
when you are fixing the motors replace the guide rubber in the guide rail for the windows as this gets splits and slows down the mechanism it is about 13 dolars/meter from sjsports cars uk 3 meters is required for each window.
double check the steering rack and the bottom universal joint.
look for brake caliper binding.
Lotus's have a fondness for using a bullshit red hose between the master cylinder and slave for the clutch in hot weather this balloons reducing the actuation of the clutch on the release bearing. you can change this to a stainless steel hose,
fuel smell in the cabin another bulshit hose that runs between the fuel tanks along the roof line behind the rear compartment window this deterioate with age and perforates letting a fuel smell into the cabin.
check the 3 cooling fans at the front of the car.
There is more
go out and buy socket sets and a full set of spanners and screwdrivers...
still thought they are the best motors on the road
blindingly fast and will out handle almost anything else!
CD
Regards CD
>> Edited by lotire on Thursday 1st September 17:07
as regards the windows it is probably the motors these are stock out of and 86-89 jag xjs
1 side fits all
make sure the motors have 8 teeth when installing lub the up well and make sure you do not overtighten the screw at the base of the motor as this can cause binding
It could also be the window switches dont know what you call them in the states or even if they were available there but the were out of a mini metro p100 around 12 dollars each
when you are fixing the motors replace the guide rubber in the guide rail for the windows as this gets splits and slows down the mechanism it is about 13 dolars/meter from sjsports cars uk 3 meters is required for each window.
double check the steering rack and the bottom universal joint.
look for brake caliper binding.
Lotus's have a fondness for using a bullshit red hose between the master cylinder and slave for the clutch in hot weather this balloons reducing the actuation of the clutch on the release bearing. you can change this to a stainless steel hose,
fuel smell in the cabin another bulshit hose that runs between the fuel tanks along the roof line behind the rear compartment window this deterioate with age and perforates letting a fuel smell into the cabin.
check the 3 cooling fans at the front of the car.
There is more
go out and buy socket sets and a full set of spanners and screwdrivers...
still thought they are the best motors on the road
blindingly fast and will out handle almost anything else!
CD
Regards CD
>> Edited by lotire on Thursday 1st September 17:07
If I recall correctly, the 88's used Bosch k-jetronic injection. If that is true, cold start problems are usually due to the cold start regulator or the temperature sensor. Not horribly expensive to replace.
There was a changeover on the gearbox from Citroen to Renault. If you have the Citroen box (identified by inboard rear brakes), 2nd gear synchros have been rather spendy of late (over $200 last time I looked just for the part). Installation isn't too bad if you are handy with tools. Otherwise there is a pretty big labor charge to have it done. I've never worked with a Renault box, so I don't have any good data for you. May as well do the clutch as long as the box is out and leverage the labor.
Windows aren't a big deal. You can rebuild the motors you have or replace them. Another maintenance issue with the windows is the gearbox between the motor and the lift mechanism. The grease in these tends to age and thicken, so cleaning these and relubricating them should accompany a motor service.
Sounds like a reasonable car if some of the details match up.
Mike
There was a changeover on the gearbox from Citroen to Renault. If you have the Citroen box (identified by inboard rear brakes), 2nd gear synchros have been rather spendy of late (over $200 last time I looked just for the part). Installation isn't too bad if you are handy with tools. Otherwise there is a pretty big labor charge to have it done. I've never worked with a Renault box, so I don't have any good data for you. May as well do the clutch as long as the box is out and leverage the labor.
Windows aren't a big deal. You can rebuild the motors you have or replace them. Another maintenance issue with the windows is the gearbox between the motor and the lift mechanism. The grease in these tends to age and thicken, so cleaning these and relubricating them should accompany a motor service.
Sounds like a reasonable car if some of the details match up.
Mike
Thank you for both for the god information.
The car is an injected model. If it's the K-Jetronic, I'm glad to hear it since I had that system in two Ferraris and found it to be realiable and easy to keep running.
I was a little stunned to see the Lotus engine listed at $42,000 US replacement cost! That's even higher than the average $35,000 for a 3.2L Ferrari V8.
So I wonder what is the usual cost of a rebuild? And how many miles are properly maintained engines usually good for?
Thanks,
Morrie
The car is an injected model. If it's the K-Jetronic, I'm glad to hear it since I had that system in two Ferraris and found it to be realiable and easy to keep running.
I was a little stunned to see the Lotus engine listed at $42,000 US replacement cost! That's even higher than the average $35,000 for a 3.2L Ferrari V8.
So I wonder what is the usual cost of a rebuild? And how many miles are properly maintained engines usually good for?
Thanks,
Morrie
morriet said:
Thank you for both for the god information.
The car is an injected model. If it's the K-Jetronic, I'm glad to hear it since I had that system in two Ferraris and found it to be realiable and easy to keep running.
I was a little stunned to see the Lotus engine listed at $42,000 US replacement cost! That's even higher than the average $35,000 for a 3.2L Ferrari V8.
So I wonder what is the usual cost of a rebuild? And how many miles are properly maintained engines usually good for?
Thanks,
Morrie
Are you sure that is not for the V8? I know it's around $35-$40k if ordered from the factory.
ErnestM
Ernest,
I got that figure for the 910, 4cyl turbo from this site:
www.espritfactfile.com/Gen_Info.html#UsedCars
I'm not likely to spend $42,000 to put a new one in a $15,000 car, so I wonder how many more miles I might expect from a car with 64K on it now. Ferrari engines with which I am familiar are good for well over 100,000 and I know of several that have gone 150,000. While I plan to drive the Esprit fairly often, I doubt that I would put more than 3,000 a year on it.
I'm quite impressed with the car. As a driving instructor for the past 15 years, I have been fortunate to drive a lot of exotic stuff. This was the first Esprit I have driven, and in many ways it is a better drive than my Ferraris. It's easier to get in and out of. The non power-assist steering is lighter than on the 308 and 328 Ferraris. The air conditioning seems to be better than on the Ferraris, but the vents could be positioned better. Otherwise I like the interior appointments. It's a delight to drive in traffic. The turbo boost comes in much quicker than in a non-chipped 944 Porsche. Visibility is good. I really hope the PPI shows its a solid car.
After reading Mike's message about the transmission, I checked and found that the rear brakes are inboard, which I guess means that I have the Citroen tranny. l have read that you should not buy an Esprit if the heater doesn't work. I haven't checked that yet, but will when I see the car again.
I have admired these cars from a distance for a long time. I was just fortunate to see this one sitting in a car lot as I drove by the other day. I had a deposit down on it an hour later.
I got that figure for the 910, 4cyl turbo from this site:
www.espritfactfile.com/Gen_Info.html#UsedCars
I'm not likely to spend $42,000 to put a new one in a $15,000 car, so I wonder how many more miles I might expect from a car with 64K on it now. Ferrari engines with which I am familiar are good for well over 100,000 and I know of several that have gone 150,000. While I plan to drive the Esprit fairly often, I doubt that I would put more than 3,000 a year on it.
I'm quite impressed with the car. As a driving instructor for the past 15 years, I have been fortunate to drive a lot of exotic stuff. This was the first Esprit I have driven, and in many ways it is a better drive than my Ferraris. It's easier to get in and out of. The non power-assist steering is lighter than on the 308 and 328 Ferraris. The air conditioning seems to be better than on the Ferraris, but the vents could be positioned better. Otherwise I like the interior appointments. It's a delight to drive in traffic. The turbo boost comes in much quicker than in a non-chipped 944 Porsche. Visibility is good. I really hope the PPI shows its a solid car.
After reading Mike's message about the transmission, I checked and found that the rear brakes are inboard, which I guess means that I have the Citroen tranny. l have read that you should not buy an Esprit if the heater doesn't work. I haven't checked that yet, but will when I see the car again.
I have admired these cars from a distance for a long time. I was just fortunate to see this one sitting in a car lot as I drove by the other day. I had a deposit down on it an hour later.
I just bought an 88 like the one you are looking at this past spring. It has delighted me since the day I bought it. I learned a little trick about the slow windows (or cutting out). The window motors had oil inside them from the factory and I guess this oil leaks out or dries over time causing the motor to heat up and shut itself off or become slow. There is a set screw on top of the window motor covered in sealant. If you can get this screw out you are able to refill it back up with oil and should increase the speed of your window. Let me know if you have any other questions. I would gladly help out whenever I can (remember I'm new to Lotus)
I would be interested in hearing your comparison against the 88 Esprit and a 308.
I would be interested in hearing your comparison against the 88 Esprit and a 308.
You should be in pretty good shape with the engine you have. By the time your car was built, Lotus was using forged pistons and nikasil coated liners, which greatly increases engine life as long as it is maintained properly. If you need a rebuild and the block is sound, figure about $2k per cylinder to replace liners, pistons, and any other bits along the way.
Mike
Mike
enzomn said:
I would be interested in hearing your comparison against the 88 Esprit and a 308.
I have only driven the Esprit a few miles and mostly in town, but I can say for sure that it is a lot quicker than a 308 or 328. I may have gotten it up to about 70mph so I can only comment on it to that point. First gear in the Ferraris is a little short in my opinion. Believe me, a Ford Explorer will out drag it. Once the turbo kicks in, the Esprit is livelier off the line and definitely stronger through the gears. I don't know how they compare at higher speeds. I never tracked the Ferraris and don't drive all that fast on the highway, so I'm not able to discuss that.
My 308 was actually a better driving car than my 328, but the Esprit seems more practical to me. The only time I noticed any turbo lag was in first gear off the line. After that it came right in when I up-shifted. The brakes on the Esprit are much better than on the 308, and about equal to the 328. Steering effort is lighter on the Esprit and I was impressed by the road feel. Turn in is crisper than either of my Ferraris, though the 308 was close and this could be just difference in tires. Straight-line stability is excellent and the quiet ride indicates to me that the aerodynamics of the Lotus are quite good. I noticed a slight rotor warp when the brakes heated up. I understand this is common on Esprits. Visibility out of the Esprit is better for me than it was in the Ferraris, though they really weren't bad. Some people have a hard time seeing out of the 3X8 F-cars.
The only weak point in the Ferrari drive train is the clutch. That isn't a problem if it is driven properly, but many are not and when you buy one you often expect to change the clutch. The transmission and engine are pretty bulletproof. 328 electronics are superior to the 308, but both are not great. I'll be interested to see how the Esprit compares.
Both Ferraris started easily and ran reliably. Both have K-Jetronic. Mechanical on the 308, electronic on the 328. I'm concerned about the hard starting and rough cold idle on the Esprit. If anyone can offer some input on this, I welcome it. I have read several warnings to be very leary of this problem. we'll do a leakdown test Tuesday. Can anyone advise on the significance of the Citroen tranny in this car?
I just ran a Carfax. Front end collision with a guardrail in 2001. Lotus dealer here says the second-gear situation sounds like a broken tooth. He replaced a rebuilt Renault transmission recently at a cost of $5,000. Parts for the rebuild ran about $4,000. He's not sure what it would be for the Citroen transmission, but thinks it would be more. None of this is a deal kiler yet. I'l wait for the results of the PPI.
Just my opinion, I think 15.5K is a bit high for one that has been put back together and will show up in CarFax and has 2nd gear issues. From my understanding, the differential pieces on the Citroen boxes are becoming Unobtanium, but syncros and gears aren't as much a problem. I am no expert on those, so continue to ask around. The Citroen gearbox expert of the world is a guy in The Netherlands.
If you are familiar and comfortable with the Bosch injection, you are one up on that car. It gives many people nightmares. I have the GM injection on my car and the nice computer will tell you where to look for problems, sort of.
I heard recently of a clean, known history 88 for sale in the St. Louis area, if I recall for about 14K. I think it was posted here on PH by someone who knew the owner. I think that would be a better car for you.
Motor rebuilds tend to be in the 6K range, from what people say. Take that as "net wisdom" as well. No one spends 40K at the stealership for a new motor. If the liners are bad, there are places that will re-coat the Nikasil for a fraction of new.
I find your comments comparing the 88 to F cars very interesting. Rear visibility, ingress, etc., are not what I would consider "strong points" on these cars, and to think they are better than the F cars is pretty funny to me.
Dr.Hess
If you are familiar and comfortable with the Bosch injection, you are one up on that car. It gives many people nightmares. I have the GM injection on my car and the nice computer will tell you where to look for problems, sort of.
I heard recently of a clean, known history 88 for sale in the St. Louis area, if I recall for about 14K. I think it was posted here on PH by someone who knew the owner. I think that would be a better car for you.
Motor rebuilds tend to be in the 6K range, from what people say. Take that as "net wisdom" as well. No one spends 40K at the stealership for a new motor. If the liners are bad, there are places that will re-coat the Nikasil for a fraction of new.
I find your comments comparing the 88 to F cars very interesting. Rear visibility, ingress, etc., are not what I would consider "strong points" on these cars, and to think they are better than the F cars is pretty funny to me.
Dr.Hess
15.5 sounds like a lot for that car. I paid a little more for a 1 owner with 27k miles on it and it had just been redone as far as the engine and gearbox goes. I know of an 88 here in MN that is for sale with about the same number of miles on it for a little less I think (I would have to check) but the interior could use a sprucing (although can't they all)
My sincere thanks to all of you for the excellent input. I'm inclined to agree with those who say the car may be overpriced, but I think I'll still have a look under it next week before deciding for certain. The technician who will do the PPI is a master Ferrari mechanic and well versed in most exotic cars of this vintage. I think he may have some good input on the transmission.
I appreciate the mention of other possible cars. If anyone has more details, please let me know.
I think my Ferrari/Esprit comparison is on my first impression that the lotus fits me better, seems to be more practical as a driver in some ways, and is more nimble. I would expect that from a Colin Chapman car. One improvement I noticed right off was in the seating. It is impossible to get in and out of the Farrari without scraping the seat bolster and almost every Ferrari with more than 20,000 miles has a big worn spot there. The Connoly leather used in Ferraris was not very good frankly, and most mid-80s cars have very hard and often cracked leather. Leatherique or similar dye jobs are common on them, but the bolster will wear right off again. The leather in the Esprit I'm considering is obviously original and still can be made to look pretty good, if not perfect, even with 64,000 miles. Ferraris are terrific cars and I enjoyed mine a lot. I wish I hadn't sold either one.
I appreciate the mention of other possible cars. If anyone has more details, please let me know.
I think my Ferrari/Esprit comparison is on my first impression that the lotus fits me better, seems to be more practical as a driver in some ways, and is more nimble. I would expect that from a Colin Chapman car. One improvement I noticed right off was in the seating. It is impossible to get in and out of the Farrari without scraping the seat bolster and almost every Ferrari with more than 20,000 miles has a big worn spot there. The Connoly leather used in Ferraris was not very good frankly, and most mid-80s cars have very hard and often cracked leather. Leatherique or similar dye jobs are common on them, but the bolster will wear right off again. The leather in the Esprit I'm considering is obviously original and still can be made to look pretty good, if not perfect, even with 64,000 miles. Ferraris are terrific cars and I enjoyed mine a lot. I wish I hadn't sold either one.
morriet said:
Ernest,
I got that figure for the 910, 4cyl turbo from this site:
www.espritfactfile.com/Gen_Info.html#UsedCars
Ah, that's Karl's site (a fellow Floridian). Probably the best site on the net for Esprit information.
IIRC people have had a lot of success just rebuilding the engines if necessary. I don't even know if you could order a new one from Hethel.
By the way, your profile says that you live in the UK?
ErnestM
ErnestM said:
Where in Florida during the Winter? Reason I ask is we have a really fun car show heading our way during the month of October in Winter Park.
ErnestM
I'm in Sarasota. In past years that Winter Park show has been organized by Bob Tallgren, who sold me my first Ferrari. I don't know if he is still around. I hear it's a good show. Tallgren also organized the show in Mt. Dora.
I have a busy schedule in October and I'm not sure I'll get to Winter Park. It depends a little on whether I get the Esprit, and that isn't looking likely for the current one. I'll be in the market for another one if this one doesn't work out. I can spend more to get a newer or better one also.
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