S4s opinions wanted

[cnh1990]

The funniest thing happened last evening. When I got home from work last evening, my son was very excitied he said he spotted a 97 V8 in a open garage just 2 blocks away while riding home on the school bus. Matt is very good for a 10 year old and can recognize different Lotus models. He probably is just about the only 10 y/o that has ridden in every model Europa, Elan and Esprit except for Sport and X180R. We jumped in the Esprit and took a short ride to the garage. There it was, it was a S4s not a 97 V8 as Matt thought. The owner was there by the car and had owned the car for many years and I have never seen it before just 2 blocks away. It was bit dusty sitting uncovered in the garage but otherwise okay. It seems he is embarking on an around the world tour and so he has elected to sell his house and car. So guys do you think I should jump from a well sorted and maintained SE to an S4s with 26K miles with nothing done except regular maintenence? I suppose I have will start all over replacing all the usual problem things first, then enhance the car. Pretty much a horiziontal swap money wise. That will mean is I may have to sell my present SE probably to someone who does not want or does not have the ability to tinker with the car as it is fully sorted as hobby people like to have a slight fixer upper. I just cringe and bristle at the thought of selling my car to someone who is not in the hobby way of thought or what I consider not a car guy and going into dis-repair. Maybe I should just keep my SE.
Calvin

[rob.ellis]

hey calvin.

Having done a very similar thing myself last year i'll respond. I used to have a GT3 (4 cylinder) esprit, but traded it for a 98 V8. The V8 is a fantastic car, but i've had some expensive problems with it. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and had i known what i know now i would have stuck with the GT3. Better the devil you know, as they say.

However... (!) as i can see from your previous posts, you appear very technically able, and I'd guess you enjoy the 'challenge' that fixing up a car brings. Given you've probably done all the things that need doing on your SE, wouldn't a new "project" be a good idea?

Suggest you have a drive in the S4s - the SE will probably feel a bit slow afterwards.. so you'll end up buying it

Go on.. you know you want to really!

[peptidedoc]

Hello Calvin,

I am looking for an Esprit, so if you decide not to go with the S4 let me know, as I would like a shot at it.

Thanks

Keith

[egomes]

Well... I can truly say that seeing your SE go is not easy. BUT! There is a great feeling knowing you took great care of your car and that someone else benefits from that. I just hope the same fate for myself once I receive my V8. What's nice is that the ball's in your court.... You can inspect the S4s as good as ANYONE and if things don't check out, you have your SE. Imagine all of us rookies who buy an Esprit and count 100% on a mechanic to tell us the car is "OKAY". What if the mechanic had a bad day!
I know you'll make the right choice and be happy with the results.. Plus, as you know, I REALLY love the curves on the S4 and newer Esprits so I'd lean towards the S4S.

Ed-

[emiller1]

Get the S4s -- asuming it checks out mechanically. Having driven SE's and V-8, I chose the S4s a few months ago and have never regretted! My Lotus mechanic looked at my car and said there is hardly anything wrong with an S4s, not true of the early V-8 and some SE's.

[Skerd]

BUY IT!!!!!
If you can fix an SE you can fix an S4s.

[cnh1990]

Red 95 S4s in Eden Prairie,MN. Beware of this one. Salvage/recon title a few owners and not put together right. Missing front bib spoiler and front under tray, etc. Poor respray. Not quite right but a 10 footer. An ugly carfax title report as they can come. I will be keeping my present SE. When a deal sounds too good it probably has some strings attached.
Calvin

[Skerd]

Glad you didn't get burned. Better luck next time.

[ErnestM]

Calvin,

Don't forget that the S4s is probably one of the most available types in the US (just due to numbers imported), so if you want one bad, I am sure you can find a good one...

Karl-Franz (factfile) has an absolute beauty of an S4s that looks great sitting next to my V8 at all of our local car shows. I would ask Karl what to look out for as far as "preinspecting" an S4s...

ErnestM

[cnh1990]

ErnestM,
I chat with KFM from time to time both on and off list. I do have a certain critera for hobby cars that I have. The main requirement is that they be lien free. I must own them outright without a car payement so I may use all my resources at a moments notice to do what ever needs to done to the car. I have seen too many people just able to afford the car payment and put off things or take short cuts that only got worse to eventually become the DPO we always hear of. This paricular S4s, the nose badge was chipped. I asked the owner if the car had been in accident and he said not that he knew of. The front had been re-painted but I told the owner that by itself did not mean much as front bumpers are painted all the time from rock chips. I asked what happened to the lower bib spoiler that are equipped in all S4 and later models and he said the car came like that. While looking at the front I saw light through the oil cooler ducts and I commented thats strange and ran my hand under the duct area. No front pan cover where the plastic cover are in the left corner. Also rippled front where bib spoiler is usually attached. Sight lines around the light pod that did not match bonnet lines. The car was so dusty that one could not put an eye on the sight lines to detect body and paint anomolies how one usually detects paint nd body ripples. However sanding marks and scratches left by a person not too proficent with a buffer or a compound a little rougher than fine cut aluminum oxide had left telltale signatures on the paint. At that time I took down the VIN and had a friend from the turbo list run a carfax as he has an unlimited subcription for a few more days. An ugly a report as one has ever seen. Wouldn't have been so bad if the guy had been forth comming with info. Many people are capable of fixing a car correctly. This one was not. I guess one could still get it for less than 30K. Just too spooky and I like cars that have not been stressed in that way. Just a personal preference. I guess I will just have to be happy with the just about stock SE that I have for a little while longer.
Calvin

[ErnestM]

Calvin...

Sounds like you did your homework. Back when I was looking for mine, I passed on a local S4s here in Cent FL cause the owner would have to "order the title"

I also passed on a black '98 V8 because it's first registered use was as "commercial"

Can't be too careful...

ErnestM

[cnh1990]

Ernest,
You have a pristine car, you have done well for yourself. I feel sorry for one that ends up with this S4s. Somehow I can see a first time buyer walking in to this one and getting blindsided. After the carfax, I canceled a return visit to do a compression and leakdown test on the engine with a tester borrowed from one club members. A good one will come along sooner or later. Until then I will enjoy my SE
Calvin

[T0OkNYC72]

My 95 s4s is for sale if your interested,I just put in a new clutch,ss clutch lines,97 esprit rims and tires.I have both rooftops,new dual ss exhaust.Red with creme interior,second owner,28k miles.Asking $38k.No accidents on this one.

[MikeyRide]

T0OkNYC72 said: My 95 s4s is for sale if your interested,I just put in a new clutch,ss clutch lines,97 esprit rims and tires.I have both rooftops,new dual ss exhaust.Red with creme interior,second owner,28k miles.Asking $38k.No accidents on this one.

Have I met you at RS Motorsports? I was dropping off my transaxle.

If you're the same guy, that is a *nice* car.

[cnh1990]

Your car sounds very nice and well sorted. I was looking for a car needing a little bit of mechanical attention as that is the hobby arena I play in. Cars of this sort in general are a bit less expensive than a well sorted example like yours sounds as at 38K it is almost 97 V8 money so it must be pristine. Thanks a lot for mentioning your car, I'm sure it would make someone very happy to have such a car. I will just have to search some more for the next project that I can tinker with.
Calvin 90 SE

[MikeyRide]

cnh1990 said:Cars of this sort in general are a bit less expensive than a well sorted example like yours sounds as at 38K it is almost 97 V8 money so it must be pristine.

An interesting comment. Hypothetically (because it's difficult to quantify), if a V8 costs 2X as much to own, would you rather have an S4s or a V8 at the same price? Personally, I'd rather own the S4s. Maintenance should be less expensive and the upper bound on a major engine problem is much lower. I am completely comfortable that nothing can happen to the 4cyl car that I can't handle (mechanically, financially, emotionally :-) ). The same can not be said for a V8.

It's not an apples-apples comparison but '89 Ferrari 348s are worth less than '88 Ferrari 328s. The 328 has a reputation as one of the best Ferraris. '89 348s have a reputation for being troublesome.

Disclosure: I own an S4s of course. I might be singing a different tune if I owned a V8.

>> Edited by MikeyRide on Monday 14th October 20:06

[cnh1990]

While I'm equally very confident about fixing and servicing a 4 cyl Esprit. There are a quite few differences between the S4s and the V8. The low end torque in the V8 is matter of fact. The lower stress nature of the engine as well with the twin turbo boost being held down in V8's would equal less wear. The V8's is just another bank of 4 cylinder. It's an engine and not something to be feared. The Espirt's were supposed to be a 8 and the turbo 4 an after thought as the money was not there V8 development. It was not a bad compromise. Even the cranks of our 4 cyl. cars have extra journals for a V8 config. Look at the slant of our engines 1/2 a V8. So would I go for a V8 for the same money, probably would. Would I go for a V8 if I had good S4s probably not as the price dump vs performance upgrade would not make a lot of sense. But for an just about stock SE owner like me a move to either S4s or V8 would be a good jump in performance. Although presently more comfortable in 4 cyl. engine bay, I have no doubt that I could learn to be as at home in a V8 engine bay. Repair costs for either would not bother me as long as I held on to rule of no liens for the hobby cars. That way even if one had to drop 1-2K or more on parts it's not a big deal. Part of the hobby. I may start to think differently if there were a car payment tied to it also. So I will continue to be on the look out for a car I can just buy with my limited means and budget, to write a check for it when the right car comes along. I need to win the darn Lotto one of these days so I can get a few more cars.
Calvin

[egomes]

Well… I guess I have a different point of view on the "loan" situation for an Esprit. I'm quite the opposite. I've never borrowed money to purchase a car until now. I believe that my "daily driver" car should be the one without liens and the hobby car be the one "shared" with the bank. My father always said that if you can't pay for it up front, YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE IT! I would argue that point since I've had the time of my life with Lotus cars. I purchased my 89SE with "most" of my hard earned money and shared it a "bit" with the bank. After enjoying the heck out of it, I set my targets to a more contemporary Esprit, the V8… My DREAM CAR. I sold my SE and continued saving. With a little extra $ that I saved, I purchased a V8 with my saved $$ and "Some" of a home equity loan with an incredibly LOW interest rate. My monthly payments are less than most people I know, yet it's the most amazing car I've ever seen or driven.

As for V8 vs S4S maintenance…..well… IGNORANCE IS BLISS. I've come to the conclusion that I know very little mechanically about both so it really doesn't matter. I'll start learning EVERYTHING I can about the V8 and hopefully that will help me down the road. But, I'm REALLY pulling for Calvin to purchase a V8 because he will learn at a MUCH faster rate than I will and walk me through any "tough times" I might have. Calvin is a big reason I had such a blast with my SE. The Esprit wasn't so overwhelming knowing that Calvin was just an email away.
(So I'll play the devil's advocate here.."Buy a V8 Calvin… Come on! You'll love it…You won't regret it!)

Ed-

[cnh1990]

Ed,
I see you are visiting the site I have been frequenting lately. These guy's are great, more like the old Turbo Esprit list before it got so large. A lot more 4 cyl. action on this site and more people that work on their own cars. Your old SE was so easy to keep on top of as it was a rather pristine example and the fixes for your car were just a few months behind my own. I wish I could have seen your SE in person. I have had some very good mentors Keen Young, Tim Engel, and Dan Curry without whose help it would have taken me a lot longer to immerse myself in to the Lotus experience. To able to see and experience things usually only reserved for people on the Lotus assembly line is indeed rare. I will one day probably make the move to a V8, but not for a while. The hobby must only consume the discretionary part of my income and the wife has her eye on a German C class sedan. At this point a S4s/V8 has low WAF* numbers unless I get a great deal on one. By that time you will have had your V8 for a while and you will have to be the rock of information for me. I will have to seek your advice on repair and maintenence proceedures.
Regards,
Calvin

*Wife Acceptance Factor

[MikeyRide]

cnh1990 said: That way even if one had to drop 1-2K or more on parts it's not a big deal. Part of the hobby.

"or more" is the issue to me. "or more" in the case of a V8 could mean a $35000 crate engine. Not likely perhaps, but that's a pretty big potential liability. I'm a "cash-n-carry" type too, and that's a whole lot of cash! The 4X as expensive clutch bugs me too.

To each his own, right? The S4s just suits me I guess. Cheap enough to enjoy driving and parking without worry, problem areas well known, and still plenty quick.

I considered getting a V8 but actually went in another direction entirely and am now building a Factory Five Cobra replica. Maybe I'll come around when more hands-on guys really get involved with the V8s and I feel that all the problem areas are known.